P&G Draft- R1: harms vs Moby

Discussion in 'Draft Games Forum' started by Physiocrat, Aug 6, 2018.

?

Who would win?

Poll closed Aug 7, 2018.
  1. Team harms

    50.0%
  2. Team Moby

    50.0%
  1. Aug 6, 2018
    #1

    Physiocrat Full Member

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    harms

    Sources of inspiration
    [​IMG]

    When you have the greatest footballer of all time in your team you have to build your side around him. Pelé was a truly unique footballer — in that sense that it's even hard to agree on his peak role and position. His peak was in the first half of the 60's (sadly the injuries in 1962 and 1966 denied him a chance of showing his true level at the respective World Cups), so it makes perfect sense to try and recreate the conditions he shined in. By France Football's reevaluation in 2016, which retrospectively included non-Europeans into the vote, Pelé would've won 6 out of 7 Ballon d'Ors from 1958 to 1964!

    Both Brazil and Santos played a hybrid formation that is usually named 4-2-4 (or 4-4-2), but on paper it often transformed into a kind of 4-3-3 — Zagallo for the national team and Dorval for Santos dropped deeper into midfield line to compensate for an overly attacking winger on the other side. That meant that Pelé often became a third man in attack — despite scoring roughly at the rate of 1,5 gpg

    Beckham and Rensenbrink are a natural fit for those wing roles — we all know how much Beckham contributed to midfield (a la Zagallo) and Rensenbrink — a devastating dribbler and a prolific goalscorer (better than 1 in 2 for Anderlecht) — on the left is a seamless fit to Pelé in a wing-forward role. Individually they're both top-notch — Beckham is probably the best crosser of the ball in history and a key part of the successful United and Madrid teams, and Rensenbrink got into 2 World Cup All-Star teams and twice finished in top-3 of Ballon d'Or votes
    [​IMG]


    Imagine Pelé and Law at the end of Beckham's crosses :drool: (skip to 3:24 for actual headers)

    The rest of my team is pretty straightforward. 2 midfield generals in Effenberg and Lerby, where Lerby does more running and Effenberg is the midfield playmaker. And a United-based defensive unit with the additions of Vasović (arguably Eastern Europe's and Ajax's best defender) and van Beveren — considered by many to be the best Dutch keeper of all-time.

    Moby

    What a devastating team. Playing 4-3-3 as the graphic suggests, high intensity containment and barricading in defense and midfield off the ball with lightning quick and smooth transitions on the ball providing that unstoppable front three with a constant array of unpredictable passing and service, and the attack to do the rest.

    The midfield is where the juices start flowing. Shielding the back four and the glue holding the midfield together is the Brazilian twice WC winning legend, Zito. Well capable of dominating an entire midfield himself, he is the required stability and solidity to allow the other two the platform to shine.



    An absolutely mouthwatering attack that sees the Arsenal and French legend Thierry Henry playing as the left forward, Portuguese and Barca/Madrid legend Luis Figo occupying the right flank with the greatest no. 9 to ever grace the pitch in Ronaldo as the centre forward. Together the three of them pack an insane punch in terms of pace, power, dribbling, creativity, clinical finishing, trickery, big match moments and it will take a monumental effort to restrain them from putting massive dents into the opposition goal.



    The Barca version of Figo who was a brilliant pacy counter attacking player will compliment the two goal scorers brilliantly in terms of driving down the flank and supplying the ammunition as well as taking his trademark long range bullets. In Henry and Ronaldo, there are two of the greatest goalscorers the game has seen. Similar to Madrid who have the same creative engine to supply Cristiano, with that sort of creativity, both Henry and Ronaldo would be absolutely lethal here and provide an enormous goal threat. Not to mention both are well capable of singlehandedly taking out entire defense with the sheer pace and dribbling.

    Key Points:
    1. Unbelievable attacking potency which when running at full pelt towards the defenders will cause havoc.
    2. The front three being well capable of scoring and creating for others as well as providing the moments of magic required to win a game like this.
    3. A well proven creative engine to take control of the midfield proceedings and provide the star studded attack ample amount of chances throughout the game.
    4. The offensive-defensive balance of the midfield that will fully contribute in both phases of the game.
    5. Complimentary backline with a GOAT DM shielding them.
    6. Huge reserves of stamina and work rate all over the park.
    7. Ability on the ball from the back to kick start deadly counters especially with that electric attack in front.
    8. Lastly, Luis Ronaldo vs Nemanja Vidic is an absolute mismatch in terms of pace, with Ronaldo constantly running with the ball towards him, there is absolutely no chance of recovery once he dribbles past him, a massive game swinging advantage.
  2. Aug 6, 2018
    #2

    Physiocrat Full Member

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  3. Aug 6, 2018
    #3

    Moby Dick who hates the homeless

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    @Physiocrat a lot of my write up seems to have disappeared.
  4. Aug 6, 2018
    #4

    harms Way Staff

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    Key points about the opposition:
    — Henry on the left is not the best use of his abilities (and I don't think that he compliments Ronaldo well personally, both are quite similar in their movement) — especially without a top quality overlapper. He also won't provide much help with a proven Beckham - Neville partnership on the right
    — Silva is by far the weakest center back on the pitch and he is a complete mismatch for either Pelé or Law
  5. Aug 6, 2018
    #5

    harms Way Staff

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    Denis Law — The King to compliment The King.

    From the very beginning when I've got Pelé my second pick was decided — it would be either Denis Law or Uwe Seeler, the strikers that would compliment him perfectly, leading the line, scoring tons of goals and letting him shine at the same time. Also, the plan was always to pair them with Beckham, so I needed someone who was outstanding in the air — which Law, without a doubt, was. Please make sure to check @Joga Bonito's thread on him — it's one of the best historical threads on caf:
    http://www.redcafe.net/threads/clas...e-greatest-forward-in-uniteds-history.430924/


    A few excerpts:
  6. Aug 6, 2018
    #6

    Moby Dick who hates the homeless

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    Not only is he absolutely natural down that left channel, and one of the greatest ever goalscorers to play a role of a wide forward, he is in an attack with two other versatile attackers who will able to accommodate each other freely especially since they will be using quick breaks and counters to attack. Either of them can easily pick the ball while they are in space and the others would be more than happy in making super fast runs towards goal. It will work similar to how Liverpool's current attack works but on a completely different level of threat and destructibility.

    A quick look at some of his best goals will show him scoring with ease cutting in from the left, whether it is a long range curler or a delicious chip. United fans especially should remember his forays down that channel burning the fullback time and again.

    The likes of Kroos and Modric releasing those three quickly on the break will be devastating and is genuinely an ominous unit to play against. As they are used to having a GOAT level scorer play on the left which they wouldn't miss here, while also having none other than the great Ronaldo in the middle as the primary weapon.

    Should put this lazy criticism to bed as it makes no sense given the rest of the attack and the tactical outlook of the team, where I wouldn't take anyone apart from 2 or 3 names for this role. I can see his partnership with Ronaldo especially bring about some incredible fast paced, full of tricks and dribbles moves wherein either of them can draw defenders and leave the other in space.
  7. Aug 6, 2018
    #7

    harms Way Staff

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    And a bit about Søren Lerby. Obviously, your central midfielders have to be exceptional to compete with a top-class midfield three, and Lerby is, perhaps, a lesser known quality to a lot of voters, so I've made a few compilations with him. Effenberg should be well-known — and he is, in my opinion, the second best midfielder on the pitch after Modrić; the ultimate midfield general.

    Søren Lerby

    A force of nature blessed with a frankly obscene will to win. Lerby was seriously hard: he played with his socks rolled down and without shinpads – in its own way every bit as cool as Viv Richards not wearing a helmet in cricket – and in November 1985 he played two games in the same day, first a World Cup qualifier against Ireland and then a German Cup semi-final for Bayern Munich against Bochum. Lerby, who usually started on the left of midfield, had the lot. He was a forceful runner with the ball; a good short passer and a fantastic long passer; an unyielding ball winner and a tireless harrier; and an excellent long-range shooter.



    Last edited: Aug 6, 2018
  8. Aug 6, 2018
    #8

    Moby Dick who hates the homeless

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    I thought we were keeping profiles in the main thread? No offense harms and I really enjoy your work most of the time, but unless the write ups provide a direct insight into how it will play out in this match up, for example a positional analysis, it would serve better purpose in the main thread. I love that Lerby story, but it's clogging up the space in here.
  9. Aug 6, 2018
    #9

    harms Way Staff

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    And a bits on my team from the opponent. However great Ronaldo was (and he was simply incredible), Pelé and Law against Moby's defenders is a bigger mismatch than either Ronaldo vs Vidić or Ronaldo vs Vasović. But Pelé is simply the best ever, on which me and Moby both agree (and it's not that common)

    Replaced Gullit with Law here.

  10. Aug 6, 2018
    #10

    harms Way Staff

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    Won't post more. There were no rules regarding that and my team has more older and lesser-known players
  11. Aug 6, 2018
    #11

    Moby Dick who hates the homeless

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    Cannot agree with this.

    Ronaldo vs Vidic is an absolute bloodbath waiting to happen, even if that sounds harsh on the Serb, but that is what it is. This is Ronaldo, who humiliated top defenders time and again, the likes of Maldini, Nesta, Thuram, Cannavaro, those who were a lot better suited athletically to face him but had no answer whatsoever. Peak Ronaldo vs Vidic here is a long 90 minutes of 1v1s waiting to happen, and there is none better than Luis Ronaldo when it comes to being 1v1 against the keeper.

    Not to mention, a direct comparison of the two players without context tells very little. Not only is Ronaldo devastating enough on his own, he has been provided two other absolute A-list attackers in a swashbuckling attacking tactic that would absolutely get the best out of him both individually as well creating for others. It's definitely a better setup than what Pele has here, and let's say if I still see him scoring/creating, it wouldn't be enough to compensate the damage inflected on the other end.
  12. Aug 6, 2018
    #12

    Moby Dick who hates the homeless

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    Adding to the above, the midfield supporting my attacking trio is a lot better suited to the tactic they are handed, as they have shown the world how to be an absolute powerhouse in a direct setup feeding some really pacy, direct and elite scoring machines.

    On the other hand, both Lerby and Effenberg are box to box midfielders and lack a defensive presence similar to that of Zito that can plug the gaps and shield the defense. It's a really gung ho midfield that can be caught out of position, and when you are facing the likes of Ronaldo, Henry and Figo, you would need players to double up on them, where a presence of a proper DM couldn't go amiss.

    Effenberg had the likes of Jeremies (he played in the match link harms posted) providing that defensive shield and the ability to drop into defense when needed. He often also played in formation that had 5 at the back, allowing a lot of defensive cover to allow him to dominate the midfield.

    Not only the lack of a player to cut the gaps between the lines is going to hamper the defense massively, but also Effenberg and Lerby having to put long shifts in defense and deep into their own half isn't optimum usage of their abilities. Especially when on the other hand you have such a proven midfield pair at the highest level with the perfect license to impact the game to the fullest.
  13. Aug 6, 2018
    #13

    harms Way Staff

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    I mean if Henry on the left in his Barca role is a lazy criticism, I don't know what to tell you about Vidić. His lack of speed is the laziest criticism ever — based on one game against Torres :) Not to say that he has it in him to stop Ronaldo — perhaps only the likes of Baresi and Figueroa stand a theoretical chance of doing so on their own, but here he has a support of Vasović, the greatest CB on the pitch, and a familiar partner on the left in Evra.

    Pelé shined best in 4-2-4 (4-4-2) transforming to 4-3-3, which is exactly the set up I've created for him (and a set up that you yourself argued for as the best for Pelé). Rensenbrink was one of the best players of his generation (2 times in the World Cup All-Star team, 2 top-3 Ballon D'Or finishes), like Henry was, but he's playing in the role he shined in (not like Henry who had his best partnership with Bergkamp). Figo is a little better than Beckham, mainly in dribbling, although I'd rate Beckham's delivery as a better one. Denis Law is the best non-Brazilian attacker on the pitch.
  14. Aug 6, 2018
    #14

    Moby Dick who hates the homeless

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    It wasn't just one game, fwiw. But it isn't just his pace alone, but also the fact that I have instructed my team to kickstart attacks as quickly as possible and have the required players to execute that. There will no doubt be situations where you will have Ronaldo going past Vidic and there being no chance of any recovery. It is true that most defenders would struggle vs him in a tactic like this but if you have defenders with better pace and athleticism, there is at least a chance to go and recover once you are beaten, for example how Davids did that in the 1998 WC semi final.

    Ronaldo's pace vs Vidic playing in a direct tactic will hurt the defense, there is a long list of defender who will be better suited to face Ronaldo before Vidic comes into the picture. While they still not be able to stop him but at least they will provide a better chance to, and that is the best that can be hoped vs GOAT attackers.
  15. Aug 6, 2018
    #15

    harms Way Staff

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    Lerby regularly was the deepest midfielder on the pitch, dropping to the defensive line to cover for his defenders or to get the ball. Effenberg putting shifts at the back won't limit him massively — his best quality, imo, was his incredible passing range, especially the long one-two touch passes to the forward line. With Pelé, Law and Rensenbrink here his and Beckham's delivery from the deep would be devastating.
  16. Aug 6, 2018
    #16

    harms Way Staff

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    The key difference with Madrid is the lack of Marcelo (even if don't question Luis Ronaldo substituting selfless Benzema, which is a key tactical feature of today's Madrid)
  17. Aug 6, 2018
    #17

    Moby Dick who hates the homeless

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    Yes, it is by no means a bad tactic but it isn't a natural fit in the same manner as the rest of the team around Ronaldo is. While with Beckham you gain a quality crosser, it also makes your primary weapon predictable and one dimensional.

    I mean, if the most I have to worry about while facing Pele is defending against crosses, I will be able to tell myself that I got out of that situation without terrible damage. Let's not forget Pele's greatest performance came around a set of players who player exquisite dynamic football with the ball on the ground for most of the time, and that would be the best use of Pele for me. He had the likes of Jairzinho, Rivelino, Tostao and Gerson - all elite technicians, dribblers and fantastic at one touch play. Beckham obviously doesn't fit to that profile or to a similar tactic. If you want this to be a better version of Beckham -- > RvN, then so be it, but that is to my benefit.
  18. Aug 6, 2018
    #18

    Moby Dick who hates the homeless

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    I agree, he was a great passer, but he also needed players to reassure him of the threat of losing possession by taking up the space behind him. It obviously provided the balance that is missing in this case, and like several 4-4-2s that we have seen in real life including our own in late 90s, this is a massively risky strategy that can easily turn very ugly against a top drawer three man midfield that could just as easily control the game or go on the offensive and start firing missiles in the paths of the attacking trio.

    Not only do the attackers require the opposition to help out the defense against them, but also both Kroos and Modric are well known to switch gears suddenly and go on the offensive themselves, in terms of making runs around the penalty box and playing those cut backs.

    There will be plenty of instances in the game where that midfield would be exposed defensively and going with the amount of time, or the lack of it, they will have to recover it is a massive tactical advantage for my team.
  19. Aug 6, 2018
    #19

    harms Way Staff

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    Yeah, it's not like he has Denis Law, Rob Rensenbrink and Effenberg around him. Pelé and Law's heading from Beckham's crosses is the easiest route to goal (considering that Hansen wasn't an elite header of the ball like Vidić/Ruggeri/Cannavaro and Silva is just not good enough), but the interplay between him and Law on the ground — watch Joga's Law videos to see what I'm talking about — and, obviously, Rensenbrink joining in like he did for Netherlands in 1974 and 1978 is a big part of my team's game.
  20. Aug 6, 2018
    #20

    Gio 7 times Redcafe Draft Winner

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    Hmm dunno about that. I know he's one of the most divisive regularly drafted players, but Silva, like Pele and Law, has a huge spring and the all-round athleticism to match up well. Personally prefer him to Vidic, but both central defensive partnerships look fairly even and will have tough times of it against the brilliance of those attacks. So to me the debate is more about levels of exposure for each of the defences.
  21. Aug 6, 2018
    #21

    Moby Dick who hates the homeless

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    Right, it seems that I have downgraded the team by replacing Karim Benzema by Luis Ronaldo. Incredible.

    Before I say anything else, which version of Ronaldo have you watched to call him selfish, not working hard and not willing to create for others? He has formed top level partnerships with the likes of Romario and Rivaldo. In both cases you could never tell which one was going to pass and which one was going to finish. Not to mention, that Ronaldo honed his talents in the 90s Serie A, playing in teams that had to work their socks off when not in possession.

    If the above criticism was lazy, this one was downright pathetic especially as it is simply not reflective of the player in question based on the qualities mentioned, without even going to the absolute insanity of arguing that Benzema would add more to an attack than Luis Ronaldo. Clutching at straws here.
  22. Aug 6, 2018
    #22

    harms Way Staff

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    Just recently Barcelona beat Real Madrid 3:0 playing a 4-4-2 formation — and it's not some hypothetical example, it's literally your midfield stars losing the game despite the advantage in midfield.
  23. Aug 6, 2018
    #23

    harms Way Staff

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    No, I never said that. I said that comparing your tactics to Madrid ones, when you have a different type of a striker (unarguably a better one in every relevant department) and don't have a marauding left-sided wingback — two key pieces to Madrid's excellence in Europe, is pointless.
  24. Aug 6, 2018
    #24

    Moby Dick who hates the homeless

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    Again lazy criticism of 'Silva is not good enough' when you yourself are focussing on defending crosses. Not saying he will be winning every duel vs Pele but I don't see the point in wrongly reflecting a player's quality here. He has been involved in numerous games where he was required to hold the fort and fend off crosses, and has always shows great reach and willingness to get his head to the ball before others. To compare it to the pace mismatch between Vidic and Henry/Ronaldo is simply incorrect.

    And there isn't a clear cut strategy to your attack, and it seems a mish mash of two completely different strategies. When we had Beckham and RvN, that was our first route to goal, we didn't suddenly ditch that and start playing tiki taka. You have to focus towards a clear cut attacking strategy, whether it is playing swift, fluid dynamic football or utilising a crosser like Beckham and pump the ball into the box. So far, the latter seems to be your primary weapon in attack, and if that dominates the majority of attacks then it will definitely take us away from what I was referring to circa Brazil 1970.

    You have put together that attack with a clear cut route to goal in mind, and I respect that, but at the same time we cannot consider it to suddenly transform and start playing a completely different brand of football, where a player like Beckham would suddenly be sub-optimum.

    On the other hand, you are facing an attack drilled to their strengths with a clear cut damage inflicting strategy in mind, which would make a difference in here.
  25. Aug 6, 2018
    #25

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    That CL match vs Eto’o really hurt Vidic’s legacy :(. Ronaldo is Ronaldo, like you said he will cause issues.

    But on the other hand you have the most overrated CB and sissy Thiago Silva in your backline, Pele and Law will rip him a new one.
  26. Aug 6, 2018
    #26

    Physiocrat Full Member

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    You were over 2500 characters. I edited the best way I could
  27. Aug 6, 2018
    #27

    Moby Dick who hates the homeless

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    It isn't just those attackers in isolation, the rest of the teams have to be considered in terms of providing the required tactical balance as well as who provides the higher frequency of attacks to cause damage to the opposition. Have argued above for the lack of a proper DM which will be a big factor to the proceedings.

    When I look at both sets of attackers, mine just feels a more natural fit, with all of them on the same page regarding the instructions provided and being in their element in a direct attacking strategy utilizing their pace and tremendous 1v1 ability.
  28. Aug 6, 2018
    #28

    Moby Dick who hates the homeless

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    Hey, should have informed me, as I would cut the parts to keep it sensible.

    There seems to be a huge chunk of text that went missing randomly from the middle and was important in terms of connecting the other parts of the write up.
  29. Aug 6, 2018
    #29

    Physiocrat Full Member

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    I had no explicit prohibition of player profiles in the game thread in its entirety, just the OP. That said I think it would be good to keep it to a minimum in the game threads and use the main thread for that.

    @harms

    Edit - The Lerby one seems fine - the story is spoilered. Law's is a bit long
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2018
  30. Aug 6, 2018
    #30

    Edgar Allan Pillow Ero-Sennin

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    Moby will dominate the middle and harms rules the flanks. Two amazing strikers upfront.

    Tough.
  31. Aug 6, 2018
    #31

    Physiocrat Full Member

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    I didn't have time to check when you sent it initially and checked just before I posted the thread. It's your responsibility to make sure it hits 2500 characters when you send it. Normally I would check earlier and let you know. I tried to edit it fairly - I thought everyone would know about the Kroos and Modric midfield so missed that out - it was also quite long.

    Please send me an amended version and I'll replace it in the OP
  32. Aug 6, 2018
    #32

    Moby Dick who hates the homeless

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    Yes, it had details relevant to the game on the roles they would be playing here, even though that is obvious and the most recent possible example of any midfield.

    Anyway, will see to it and give you any changed if required.
  33. Aug 6, 2018
    #33

    Physiocrat Full Member

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    Thanks
  34. Aug 6, 2018
    #34

    idmanager Banned

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    Tough one to choose. If not for Silva, Moby would have won my vote by now.

    Love Effenberg but I would prefer another Lerby-esque player alongside to match the Kroos Modric tandem. The midfield battle is tilted towards Moby for me.

    Also Moby’s front 6 has hardly any overlaps which is always a bonus. Can see a few overlaps in harms’s side. Rensenbrink-Pele / Pele-Effenberg (played almost like a number 10 during some phases. Without that freedom, he is not the same in a limited role for me)

    Agree Pele Law will have fun against Silva. Hansen seems like a decent choice but would have preferred a more physically astute defender alongside.
  35. Aug 6, 2018
    #35

    Physiocrat Full Member

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    @harms How deep a defensive line are you holding?
  36. Aug 6, 2018
    #36

    harms Way Staff

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    Really don't know how it limits Pelé, or Rensenbrink for that matter, considering that Pelé formed a fantastic partnership with Garrincha, for example — much more egoistic and ball-hogging player. Rensenbrink cutting it will find Pelé in a natural position as well — as he said, "I was not a center forward. I used to play as the third man". And Rensenbrink spent lots of time outwide and created tons of chances from there to assist Pelé when he moves upfront.

    Effenberg as well — I mean Pelé is the ultimate team player who fits pretty much every system — as evident by his different partnerships with Garrincha, Didi, Gerson, Rivelino etc.
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2018
  37. Aug 6, 2018
    #37

    harms Way Staff

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    Relatively deep, with quick transitions — Vasovic, Effenberg, Lerby and sometimes Beckham's passes will bypass a midfield to give the ball to my attacking unit.
  38. Aug 6, 2018
    #38

    Moby Dick who hates the homeless

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    It's a catch-22 situation for you.

    On one hand, it seems obvious to eliminate the spaces behind the defense against an attacking trio of such explosive pace, power and dribbling but adding that to the lack of a proper holding midfielder or a DM would lead to leaving enormous gaps between the defense and midfield, which is again a recipe for disaster.

    It is the reason some of the famous 4-4-2s play a fairly high line, to compensate the lack of a third midfielder or someone who can cut out the space between the lines, similar to what United did and it means all of our midfield four could contribute on the front foot without having a lot of ground to cover after losing the ball with the backline playing the offside trap.

    Not only can all three of Ronaldo, Figo and Henry easily drop into those spaces and carry the ball forward, but by playing a deep backline and having two midfielders like Lerby and Effenberg who would generally push forward with the ball, both Modric and Kroos can absolutely turn the game around with that kind of space presented to them in midfield, not to mention with Zito in constant support and being able to outnumber the opposition. With that kind of license, they can just as easily drill through balls into the paths of the attackers and also be tempted to go for goal. Kroos has a brilliant long range strike that would be deadly in a scenario like that.
  39. Aug 6, 2018
    #39

    Edgar Allan Pillow Ero-Sennin

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    Not seeing this. Effenberg is hands down a better player than Lerby in almost everything. You can argue Lerby was better on the defensive side, but not by anything significant. It is a good partnership bringing out best of both imo. Similar to Giggs/Keane/Canotna, I don't see much overlaps here tbh!

    Did they really have a partnership? Garrincha's peak was in 1962 without Pele whose peak was in 1958 and 1970 where Garrincha was not a force of nature.
  40. Aug 6, 2018
    #40

    harms Way Staff

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    Well, I'd say so, considering that they have not lost a game together having played 40 of them. Not only at the World Cups. Obviously there aren't enough footage of non-WC games, but they couldn't have been bad together with that record. And Rensenbrink is a much more of a team player anyway, as he showed for the national team, even though he was talented enough to shine as a main star for Anderlecht and 1978 side.