P&G Draft - R1: Pat vs onenil

Discussion in 'Draft Games Forum' started by Physiocrat, Aug 8, 2018.

?

With players at their career peak, who would win?

Poll closed Aug 9, 2018.
  1. Team Pat

    39.1%
  2. Team oneniltothearsenal

    60.9%
  1. Aug 8, 2018
    #1

    Physiocrat Full Member

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    [​IMG]
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    Pat Mustard

    Tactical Synopsis: Possession-orientated, offensive 4-3-1-2/4-3-3 with attacking full backs and a high defensive line.

    This is a highly attacking, dynamic lineup that aims to establish effective control in midfield and play a majority of the match in the opposition half. To that end, we’re fielding a high defensive line led by Dutch legend Ruud Krol partnered with high-line specialist Carles Puyol, who are flanked by the stellar all-rounder Maicon at right back and the attacking virtuoso Marcelo at left back. Valery Voronin provides top-notch defensive coverage and distribution in central midfield, and his partners van Hanegem and Jansen both boast excellent pedigree in such possession-based setups.

    With outstanding deeper playmakers in van Hanegem and Krol behind him, our star attacker Zico can concentrate his efforts on scoring and creating in the final third, and should see plenty of the ball. Italy’s all-time top scorer Gigi Riva should be a great fit for Zico as a battering ram centre forward with deadly finishing and a surprisingly deft and creative touch. Jupp Heynckes completes our attack as a roaming forward. It’ll be Heynckes who plays the most selfless role of the trio, constantly probing across the width of the forward line for openings and providing decoy runs to create space for Zico and Riva.

    Assessing The Opposition Threat:

    Two quality wingers, probably positioned high up the pitch, a GOAT roaming CF in Cruyff linking with Socrates, and the top-notch deep passer Koeman.

    To counter this:

    1) Deprive the opposition of the ball with a possession-orientated gameplan. We have proven quality in possession-orientated setups throughout our backline and midfield.

    2) High defensive line to limit space between the lines for Cruyff and Socrates, with Krol and Puyol possessing exceptional credentials in high-line setups.

    3) An all-time great libero in Krol leading the defence, and three powerhouse contributors in the defensive phase in our midfield in van Hanegem, Jansen and Voronin.

    4) Excellent covering options if Marcelo or Maicon are beaten or caught out of position. Krol and Puyol have played at LB and RB respectively, and Voronin can drop into CB if they are dragged into wide areas or choose to spread wide when we’re in possession to allow Marcelo/Maicon to advance forward. Both van Hanegem and Jansen can also cover the wide areas effectively.

    5) Riva/Heynckes to take primary responsibility for pressing Koeman/Maldini when they’re in possession.

    oneniltothearsenal

    Strategy:
    “Our foundation was technique and everything else was a matter of positioning and support. Good positional play meant that you didn’t have to run so far, so technique was ablke to come more easily to the fore.” - Johan Cruyff

    Fluid Front Four
    Cruyff and Sócrates’ combination play is the heart of this side. They both have their preferred channels and the foundation to play completely fluid with the front four. Cruyff and Sócrates’ interplay is the spearhead to the attack. Even the best man markers and defensively sound players could not stop players of the ingenuity of Cruyff and Sócrates from scoring goals.

    Also, the entire front four are superb at tempo changes. These changes in rhythm and tempo keeps the opposition unbalanced. Sócrates, Cruyff, Conti and Ribery all excel at changing the tempo to catch out the opposition.

    Wingers Swapping Sides
    Conti and Ribery are an ideal pair to overstress the defense by swapping sides. Both have a very high game intelligence along with great work ethic, movement, dribbling and passing to maximize this advantage. They will operate around the center pair and use their combination play to create openings in the defense that can be exploited by any of the front four.

    This intelligent movement will open up spaces to exploit in any defense. Even the best defenses in history like Italy ‘82 and Milan ‘93 gave up key goals to clever movement. This side has some of the best attacking positional masters of the game in Cruyff, Sócrates, Conti and Ribery. They will unbalance the defense and score many goals.

    Koeman and Nelinho Dismarking with Passing
    Koeman is probably the greatest passing defender of all time. His range and accuracy offers both strong control in possession and lightning quick counter attacks. Nelinho complements this by offer another passer capable of accurately quickly switching sides. This feeds into the fluid front four and switching wingers by offering quick and accurate ball delivery. It also makes the side extremely press resistant.

    Koeman masterfully directs play from the backline. With the Total Footballer and the Doctor constantly buzzing around confusing the defense and the guile of Conti and Ribery swapping flanks, the ability to pick out pinpoint passes from across the pitch will prove vital. They have the ability to take numerous out of a play with a skilled pass.

    Cover Shadows
    This is how Spielverlagerung defines cover shadow: “With the use of the own body, a player can defend by applying a cover shadow that is usually utilized in terms of a zonal defence. When a player positions himself between the ball carrier and an open man, he covers the latter in his fictive shadow. Therefore, the defender can prevent a pass.”

    When the opponent has possession a player like Sócrates doesn’t need to press off the ball like a Klopp player to be effective. Our side will employ the cover shadow principle to prevent the opponent from easily recycling possession through the backline. This will be used in conjunction with Ribery and Conti’s hard work off the ball to prevent easy use of the 3 at the back to recircle the ball. By doing this we negate any advantage a back 3 has in possession.
  2. Aug 8, 2018
    #2

    Physiocrat Full Member

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  3. Aug 8, 2018
    #3

    Physiocrat Full Member

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  4. Aug 8, 2018
    #4

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    :lol: I'm enjoying the fireworks/handbags in the other matches and Onenil is probably still sleeping so I've held off on posting anything about this match so far.
  5. Aug 8, 2018
    #5

    harms Way Staff

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  6. Aug 8, 2018
    #6

    Skizzo Full Member

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    Abidal playing would have swung my vote for sure in Pat’s favour. As it currently stands I just can’t see him winning at all. Just kidding #freeEricToBarca
  7. Aug 8, 2018
    #7

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    :lol: In my defence I had originally planned on starting all my left backs when I began stockpiling them, but 5-3-2 didn't look a good fit against Onenil's formation.
  8. Aug 8, 2018
    #8

    oneniltothearsenal Caf's Milton Friedman (and Arse aficionado) Scout

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    @Pat_Mustard good luck Pat
    @Physiocrat I seem to read the limit as words not characters. So here was the rest of my original OP :D

    Few quick thoughts before I head back to work:

    Key Players

    One interesting fact is that both Cruyff and Conti played baseball growing up. They both credit the training they received in baseball with improving their game intelligence for football.

    “I was able to transfer a lot of advice from baseball to football very successfully. The same was true of learning to think ahead, which was what baseball taught me well. You’re always busy making decisions between space and risk in fractions of a second. It also taught me tactical insight - making the right decision and performing it in a technically good way. It was only later I pulled this together to create my vision of how the game of football should be played” - Johan Cruyff


    Cruyff in the 1974 World Cup
    Cruyff had more successful dribbles in the 1974 World Cup (34) than any other player. This included his famous 'Cruyff turn' against Sweden. - In the 1974 World Cup, Cruyff was also the player who created the most chances (36) and completed the most passes in the final third of the pitch (136).


    Bruno Conti
    -
    “They said I was technically skilled, but physically not strong enough to play football. But I never stopped dreaming: I said to myself ‘If you don’t make it as football player, you can always become a good baseball pitcher.’ “ - Bruno Conti

    “WC82 Final:
    Conti was at the heart of everything and played a vital role when Marco Tardelli made it two.
    Conti passed defender after defender before laying the ball off to substitute Alessandro Altobelli who did the rest. Germany scored a late consolation but Italy were champions of the world for the 3rd time.

    The following year Conti played his part in another amazing story. He was Roma’s key man in them winning their second ever scudetto. In a team with the likes of Falcao, Agostino Di Bartolomei and Ruberto Puzzo, Conti shinned, creating numerous goals and was the link between attack and defence.

    In their next season, Roma had even more success. They finished runners up in the league and won the Coppa Italia again, but it was to be their amazing European run that would steal all the headlines

    Miljan Miljanic: “All the Italians were great, Bruno Conti maybe a little more than the others”.

    Karl-Heinz Rummenigge: “Italy were deserved winners. The tournament’s best player? For me it’s Bruno Conti; it was an honour for me to swap shirts with him after the final. I’ll keep it as a memory of a fantastic champion”

    Michel Hidalgo: “Do you know who I’d long to have? Bruno Conti”

    Bobby Charlton: “If I was the national coach of any team in the world, I would want Bruno Conti with me”

    Hansi Muller: “Who is the player who I’m most worried about as a future opponent? Bruno Conti, no question”

    Pele: “Bruno Conti was the true Brazilian at the World Cup. He was the best of any player I saw in Spain. I don’t think players like him are born any more”

    Oscar: “For me, Conti was the best player of the World Cup”

    Diego Maradona: “Conti was the real revelation of this World Cup, he’s a player of real international class. Argentina or Brazil would be delighted to have him in their team”

    Daniel Bertoni: “Bruno Conti is decisive in the Azzurri’s play, he’s a true world class player. Thanks to him, Bearzot was able to solve no small amount of problems”

    Jean Vincent: “Before Italy-Cameroon, I said that Conti was the only player who truly made me fearful, because he’s unpredictable and gifted with great quality. His performances during the entire World Cup showed that I was right”

    Zbgniew Boniek: “I’ve seen Conti from on the pitch, on the television and from the stands – it’s almost impossible to stop him. Among other things, he has a very precise and powerful shot”


    Cruyff on Sócrates:
    “He was noticeably tall and came across as elegant, a person who was fleet of foot. There were others in midfield, of course, but I could see very clearly that it was he who gave form to that national side. Sócrates reminded me of my hero as a boy, Faas Wilkes, a man who also played elegant and beautiful football that was above all technica.

    Just like him, Sócrates could do what he wanted with the ball thanks to his enormous skill and vision. He knew where to position himself on the field of play. He was one of those players who did a little bit of everything, in the best sense. Sócrates scored a lot of goals. In that sense he reminded me of DI Stefano, who also scored a lot and was good in many other ways.

    If he played today, Sócrates would, in many respects, be the opposite of Messi, who is small and quick. Sócrates did not need speed to control the game.”


    Ronald Koeman
    “Koeman had such positional strength that he always intercepted (counter-attacking passes)” - Cruyff

    A total football legend that is underrated these days. He played a key role in the Netherlands winning the 1988 Euros as well as Barcelona winning the European Cup in 1992.

    “After shining in PSV, Koeman tried to become a world superstar in Barcelona. Perfect in the rear and absurdly efficient in attack, the defender with the highest number of goals in football history scoring 102 goals in 345 games for Barca and 253 goals in his career.” - imortaisdofutebol.com


    On the Opposition

    I am surprised to see Pat run with a back-4. I think that plays into my team's strengths perfectly. That back-4 even with a DM helping is going to get cut open a lot against my much intelligent, probing attacks. Cruyff and the Doctor look poised to have massive games here.

    On the other side Zico always played in formations that had wide forwards/wingers and he thrived on having that movement around to stretch. This set-up is too narrow to take advantage of Zico's best qualities, unlike my formation which gives Cruyff and Sócrates the space and perfectly balanced teammates.

    I can't see Cruyff or Sócrates being stopped in this match. PLaying that high of a line is suicide against players like Cruyff, Sócrates and Conti especially when Koeman and Nelinho are perfect for the incisive passes that destroy high lines.
  9. Aug 8, 2018
    #9

    harms Way Staff

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    Surprised with the lack of interest. Another two teams that are hard to separate.

    Refreshing to see Cruyff not in the 4-3-3. Is this the first time you've paired Cruyff and Socrates together, @oneniltothearsenal?
  10. Aug 8, 2018
    #10

    idmanager New Member

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    Can't see Cruyff being stopped here. Nice to have Jansen on that side who will have to work his ass off, but with Ribery present on that side too, Maicon and Puyol does seem a bit lacking quality wise to deal with a GOAT.
  11. Aug 8, 2018
    #11

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    I was considering pulling it back a tad but if I'm going with a high line tactic at all I might as well go all in with the formation graphic :D
  12. Aug 8, 2018
    #12

    oneniltothearsenal Caf's Milton Friedman (and Arse aficionado) Scout

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    I think the ultra high line makes it an easy vote for team Onenil ;)

    And yes first time. I've wanted to pair them a while as I think its a combination that is a nightmare to stop. I realized a few drafts ago that I could have picked this combo but I went a different direction and regretted it. So I was over the moon to get it this time. Especially with Koeman and Conti I see some brilliant play.
  13. Aug 8, 2018
    #13

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    Same to you mate.

    Predictably enough I disagree on all counts :).

    A back five would have been overkill against your formation. The three centre backs would often find themselves with either one or zero players to mark if Cruyff dropped deep, inviting you to take control of the midfield, which would just play into the strengths of Cruyff and Socrates. Alternatively if I played more adventurously and gave them greater responsibility for marking Conti and Ribery they'd have been pulled far too wide and exposed to 1v1s too often. Far better to go with a back four as the default formation and allow Voronin to drop back into defence situationally when required.

    I doubt there's ever been a draft match featuring a high line defence where the opposition manager hasn't called it suicidal, but I'd hope that people will recognise firstly the benefits in terms of establishing control of possession and territory, and secondly that I've selected a core of defenders and midfielders with vast credentials in high line systems.

    On Zico, I don't see my team as lacking width in comparison to, say, Brazil 1982. I suspect this will be a touchy subject but I'd easily take Marcelo as a width-providing left back over Junior and Maicon is roughly on par with Leandro in that aspect. Heynckes is playing the roaming wide forward role that he fulfilled with distinction at Euro 72 where he provided a fair amount of wide threat (video to follow), and Riva wasn't a static CF either (again video to follow courtesy of @harms ). I'm in the middle of making a video of Jansen playing as an RM too, but I probably won't have time to finish it so I'll just upload it in its incomplete state.
  14. Aug 8, 2018
    #14

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    Can you elaborate a bit on your defensive tactics?
  15. Aug 8, 2018
    #15

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    Video of Heynckes in the 1972 Euros final as a wide forward:


    And some of his credentials courtesy of Joga:

  16. Aug 8, 2018
    #16

    MJJ Full Member

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    I can zico running riot here.
  17. Aug 8, 2018
    #17

    harms Way Staff

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    Nah, it's as good tactic as any. There is obviously a chance that Koeman will find Cruyff/Conti with one of his long balls over the top (like United conceded this preseason against Milan), but the high line and the offside trap, with Krol orchestrating the defensive movement, will seriously limit your attacking threat.

    I'm not sure about Puyol though, he has all the experience that is needed but he was beaten way too easy by many good/great dribblers (and the whole onenil's attacking four is great at that, even though Socrates does it on the spot without moving). Without a proper number 9 I'd probably go with Abidal, even though it would've force Krol to move to the right side.
  18. Aug 8, 2018
    #18

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    Yeah, choosing which defenders to go with was the most (only) difficult selection choice for me. I have Hulshoff and Blankenburg on the bench as well as Abidal, so I could have played either of them alongside Krol or paired them up with Krol at LB if I was willing to sacrifice Marcelo's attacking threat and incur the hatred of everyone else who wanted him for 15m. I'd be quite happy with Krol on the right side as he had no problems at all defending that area, but it would have been a point of contention with a lot of voters no doubt.
  19. Aug 8, 2018
    #19

    Theon Full Member

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    I don’t think there can be any doubt about that at this stage of Marcelo’s career. He’s competing with Roberto Carlos when it comes to offensive play from the left back position, imo he’s surpassed all others attacking wise.

    Agree on Riva and Heynckes as well. I don’t think your side lacks width.
  20. Aug 8, 2018
    #20

    oneniltothearsenal Caf's Milton Friedman (and Arse aficionado) Scout

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    What about Cruyff? Cruyff vs Puyol is the biggest mismatch of attacker to defender while Mauro Silva is well positioned to limit Zico

    No way. The first bit doesnt make sense and isnt supported by facts. Socrates and Cruyff have two of the highest football IQ of all time and were never susceptible to an off side trap. The biggest matches they both lost were not because of high lines , quite the opposite.

    Leaving acres of space for this front four is going to lead many more through balls than you acknowledge. Nelinho was one of the greastest fullback passers and is just as capable of picking out Ribery and Cruyff as Koeman can find Socrates and Conti. Also my front four are deadly on through balls which the line is weak against.

    As you say Puyol is really a poor choice against dribblers and I have some Goat level there. That high line also lends itself to a lot of fouls on Cruyff et al which unlocks another of Koeman unique advantages.

    Another problem for Pat is that none of his midfielders are particularly agile or fast and with the level of technique, passing they are going to be chasing ghosts
  21. Aug 8, 2018
    #21

    Edgar Allan Pillow Ero-Sennin

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    Pat's midfield is solid, but I don't see the team playing possession football. They would be quite attacking when the get the ball though but Onenil is set up quite good to defend. Cruyff plus those two wingers will probably need fewer chances to score imo.
  22. Aug 8, 2018
    #22

    oneniltothearsenal Caf's Milton Friedman (and Arse aficionado) Scout

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    I don't think you can maintain possession just by playing a high line. I don't see how you can reliably win the ball off our front four to begin with. Players that are fast, intelligent and technical can thrive against a high line. This is what I see happening with Koeman and Nelinho being able to feed Cruyff against a high line:


    And here is a great discussion on Cruyff from the 1974 World Cup starting at 15:20



    The other thing to keep in mind is we don't even need the world class passing to beat the high line because we also have world class dribblers. Conti can pick up the ball in midfield and I would bet on him beating Marcelo 1v1 more times than not. Plus Conti and Ribery are also hard working so will track back to help limit your full backs effectiveness in attacking.

  23. Aug 8, 2018
    #23

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    Cruyff is one of the best goalscorers ever of course, but so is Zico, and do you really think Ribery and Conti are anywhere near as prolific or clinical as Heynckes and Riva? Not sure why you feel my team won't play possession football. Of course with the cutting edge we've got up front we aren't aiming to pass it endlessly like Spain 2010 for example, but van Hanegem and Jansen were stalwarts for that great 70s Dutch side, and Voronin has been (rightly) mentioned on here by the likes of Joga as a feasible upgrade for Busquets in the Busquets/Xavi/Iniesta Barca midfield
  24. Aug 8, 2018
    #24

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    They're supremely gifted footballers so they can thrive against a low line too. Socrates in particular would thrive in the space between the lines if I played a low block. We're not maintaining possession solely a high line. We have two of the most technically gifted defenders ever in Krol and Marcelo and a brilliant midfield containing players that have excelled in possession-based systems. The players fit the tactic here.

    No denying that Conti will fancy his chances 1v1 against Marcelo, which is why I've outlined my contingency plans there:

    "Excellent covering options if Marcelo or Maicon are beaten or caught out of position. Krol and Puyol have played at LB and RB respectively, and Voronin can drop into CB if they are dragged into wide areas or choose to spread wide when we’re in possession to allow Marcelo/Maicon to advance forward. Both van Hanegem and Jansen can also cover the wide areas effectively."
  25. Aug 8, 2018
    #25

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    Cheers mate. I'd probably put Brehme up around that level too, although he's different stylistically.
  26. Aug 8, 2018
    #26

    Don Alfredo Full Member

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    I don‘t understand the point of Jansen. I mean Voronin and van Hanegem are two hard workers by themselves, what does he offer that the other other two don‘t already give you?

    Put Heynckes or another left winger on the LW and constantly attack down the defensively weaker side of onenil to get through on goal. Don‘t know if you have another winger, but would have liked to see a 4231 with Heynckes/Marcelo combo on the left. Could be similar to Marcelo/CR combo
  27. Aug 8, 2018
    #27

    oneniltothearsenal Caf's Milton Friedman (and Arse aficionado) Scout

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    I get that you are trying to play a high risk/high reward set-up and trying to gamble but I don't think your side is well suited to either maintaining possession against my lads or outscoring Ribery-Cruyff-Socrates-Conti + Nelinho, Vidal and Koeman. Between van Hanegem's lack of mobility and speed (his objectively biggest weakness) and Jansen's lack of skill with the ball at his feet (he was probably one of the worst technically of that Dutch era) I can't see your midfield maintaining possession consistently. For instance Ribery and Conti were hard workers who can track and harass your fullbacks. But as it is it looks Nelinho is going unmarked. van Hanegem would have a torrid time with his lack of pace trying to move out to cover Nelinho. And Nelinho is another with world class long range passing. So van Hanegem would be chasing out to the wing only to have Nelinho calmly switch the ball to the other side of the pitch possibly into Cruyff where he could score a goal like above

    On the other end we just have too much technique and passing plus positional sense for you to win the ball consistently. Cruyff's strength is guile, dribbling and interplay and Puyol's weakness is exactly a player of his type.

    Cruyff is the best player on the pitch. And because I keep forgetting to highlight him, I also have the best defender on the pitch in Paolo Maldini

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2018
  28. Aug 8, 2018
    #28

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    Aye, Zico looks well-placed to be a match-winner here.

    I rate Mauro Silva quite highly but he's hardly a greater player than Puyol in their respective positions. That Mauro/Koeman/Gamarra central defensive unit is seriously lacking in pace and agility and is going to look leaden-footed against my attack. If you think Puyol is going to concede free kicks against your attackers than I don't see how you could possibly deny that your defenders will do the same. Koeman in particular was a serial fouler.
  29. Aug 8, 2018
    #29

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    I didn't complete this video as I'm a lazy twat, but it should still illustrate what Jansen brings to the team:



    - Excellent covering ability against Ribery, freeing up Maicon and offering him security.
    - Ability to compress space and hustle Socrates and Cruyff even more when they drop deep.
    - Very underrated attacking game. He won the free kick for Holland's first goal in the match in the video, then the penalty for the second goal.

    Keep in mind the arrows on Heynckes in the formation graphic and my instructions in the write up - he's not stuck out on the right wing all match but instructed to probe across the frontline. With the likes of Jansen and Maicon able to provide width on the right anyway Heynckes is free to look for gaps and weaknesses against Nelinho and that slow central defence.
  30. Aug 8, 2018
    #30

    Don Alfredo Full Member

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    FIFA blocked it for me mate:(

    I also thought there has to be some footage of Maicon vs Ribery, would be tasty if someone could get their hands on who had the upper hand during those games in 2011
  31. Aug 8, 2018
    #31

    oneniltothearsenal Caf's Milton Friedman (and Arse aficionado) Scout

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    Less so than Marcelo and Maicon. And let's not forget, with no wide forward/winger that Heynckes and Zico also have to deal with Paulo Maldini, the best defender on the pitch, more often than not. I really don't see how that high line with two extremely attacking full backs (even Barcelona and Wenger didn't play with two full backs as attack focused as your two without a balanced one) has any prayer of stopping a team that can both precision pass from deep and dribble at GOAT level against the high line

    Here is Puyol getting burned trying to cover Di Maria from a high line (a lot of these clips exist)




    If Di Maria can do that imagine what Cruyff can do:



    I know we all know it but Cruyff was such a beautiful, unique dynamo of a GOAT and here he has one of the most unselfish but still decisive supporting players of all time in Socrates, a player Cruyff compares to Di Stefano and Faas Wilkes in his goal scoring + so many little details to control the game. In Ribery and Conti Cruyff has supremely intelligent and technical players as outlets and weapons while in Socrates he has a better co-conspirator than any he has played with.
  32. Aug 8, 2018
    #32

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    I doubt that. I don't have stats for fouls committed by Koeman, but in terms of collecting cards:

    Koeman: 192 La Liga matches: 45 yellow cards, 6 red cards - 1 yellow every 4.26 games

    Puyol: 392 La Liga matches: 72 yellow cards, 2 red cards - 1 yellow every 5.44 matches

    Marcelo: 320 La Liga matches: 50 yellow cards, 2 red cards - 1 yellow every 6.4 matches

    Maicon: 234 Serie A matches: 41 yellow cards,5 red cards – 1 yellow every 5.7 matches

    Koeman is easily the most prolific offender, and that's in a considerably more lenient era of refereeing. As far as the Di Maria/Cruyff comparison, if Koeman is forced to commit a professional foul after David Platt bursts past him, how's he going to fare against Zico and Riva?



    Maldini is unlikely to have the licence to tuck in that you think given that Heycnkes, Maicon and Jansen can all attack that wing, although he will probably find himself dragged in there trying to cover for Koeman/Gamarra when they find themselves flat-footed against the likes of Zico.

    Barcelona actually fielded an even more attacking pair of full backs if anything in Dani Alves and Jordi Alba and won a La Liga and CL double with them, not to mention that Jansen/Voronin/van Hanegem will provide far more defensive coverage than the Barca or Arsenal midfields.
  33. Aug 8, 2018
    #33

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    Also @oneniltothearsenal could you answer this when you get a chance, as there's been a hell of a lot of discussion about the frailties of a high line and very little clarity as to how you're going to stop my attack, which probably boasts 3 of the best 4 goalscorers on the pitch.

  34. Aug 8, 2018
    #34

    oneniltothearsenal Caf's Milton Friedman (and Arse aficionado) Scout

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    Misleading and selective use of data. :nono:

    Koeman has 82 cards in 630 matches in his career which is ratio of 7.6 games per card.
    Maicon by comparison has 83 cards in 450 matches in his for a ratio of 5.4 matches per card.
    Marcelo has 90 in 483 for 5.3 matches per card.

    Oh and of course you are ignoring that Gamarra, famous for his perfect timing and lack of fouling. He famously committed zero fouls in the 1998 World Cup earning him recognition in the team of the tournament going up against world class attackers in France, Spain and Bulgaria. So its just fake news here you are spouting with this implication I will somehow foul more than you.

    Also I hope you aren't making the infamous two places at two times argument with your side. You are now claiming that Heynckes, Jansen (by far the worst technical player on the pitch) are going to be on the left wing. First Maicon would be tracked by Ribery because as I already mentioned Ribery and Conti are both hardworking and track back. If Heynckes is playing as a left forward then he is going to simply get blanked this match as Maldini is tiers ahead of him in quality. Jansen is the worst technical player on the pitch and isn't particularly quick sop he would just get picked up by Silva or Vidal depending on how your team is attacking.

    The fact is Puyol is about as bad a match-up for Cruyff as you can get in an all-time draft meanwhile my defense and midfield matches up superbly your attacking trio.


    But they aren't remotely as good as even Arsenal midfield let alone Barca at technique and maintaining possession.


    You'll have to be more specific.
    Also, you never answered who and how you expect to mark Nelinho who looks like a completely free man based on how you have explained your tactics.
  35. Aug 8, 2018
    #35

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    Bastards :mad:. I'm following @Šjor Bepo onto the Vimeo wagon from now on. Hopefully this works:



    As I say, it's not a complete all touches video but should give an idea of why I picked him, and showcase his underrated attacking game a bit.
  36. Aug 8, 2018
    #36

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    Anything at all would be helpful. High line or low line would be the obvious starting point given the theme of the match thread so far.
  37. Aug 8, 2018
    #37

    oneniltothearsenal Caf's Milton Friedman (and Arse aficionado) Scout

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    Nonsense hyperbole.
    Riva had 161 goals in 295 for Cagliari and Neglano.
    Socrates had 172 in 297 for Corinthians.

    Objectively there is no way you can claim Riva is a superior goal scorer.

    And this is a misleading argument anyway. It tries to hand wave away the contributions of Ribery and Conti based on super shallow statistic comparison out of context. They both have achieved really important big game assists and tournament goals. Just because they didn't score at the ratio of Heynckes doesn't mean they can't impact the score of the game. You are really underrating/ignoring two of the greatest wingers/wide forwards of their era that are going against full backs that are famous for attacking not defending. Then we have contributions of Ronald Koeman who scored 254 goals in his career more than any other defender, Vidal scores 1 in 4 for Chile, Nelinho has scored 100+ goals in his career including 2 goals and an assist in the 1978 World Cup and a few famous goals for his clubs. The synergy in my side is greater than the synergy in yours.

    I really don't see much attacking contribution to your side in your midfield and defense outside van Hanegem so your attacking routes are much more predictable and easier to contain. And considering that Puyol is famously weak against exactly the kind of players in my attack (unlike my defenders who match up better with your attack in both skillset/strengths and overall quality).

    Let's not underrate how much influence Conti can have on a match

  38. Aug 8, 2018
    #38

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    I used La Liga stats for the obvious reason that Koeman/Marcelo/Puyol played in the same league, and only included Maicon/Serie A as you mentioned him specifically. It's already skewed heavily towards Koeman as his La Liga stats are from the much more lenient 1990s. If you really insist on bringing his 1980s record into it as well (going back into the era when fecking Gentile could navigate his entire Juventus career with only one red card) then it becomes essentially pointless.

    You're the one that brought up the fouling point in the first place, and if I'm ignoring Gamarra then I didn't see you rushing to point out that Krol was a fairly clean tackler himself.

    1) Nope, just pointing out that my team are allowed to interchange positions as well. Why on earth wouldn't they vary their attacking patterns? Or is just Cruyff/Socrates and your wingers who are allowed to do that?
    2) All of a sudden your high-line shredding Koeman passes are looking a fair bit less dangerous if your wingers are tracking my full backs all the way back.
    3) Jansen is technically better than Gamarra or Mauro Silva, and quicker than either of them

    Koeman and Gamarra shielded by Mauro Silva is possibly the slowest central defensive axis I've seen in any draft, all-time or not. How on earth is that a good fit vs Zico and Heynckes? I'd back Riva over Koeman in the air any day as well.

    What Arsenal midfield are you referring to here, as that sounds a bit crackpot to me.

    Depends on the situation. Whichever attacker is in that one will close him down if he receives the ball deep and you're building up slowly, Marcelo will probably find himself up against Nelinho if he's caught upfield and van Hanegem or Krol ends up picking up Conti, or most likely van Hanegem himself if Marcelo has recovered his position and Nelinho receives the ball further upfield.
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2018
  39. Aug 9, 2018
    #39

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    You really can when Riva scored 35 goals in 42 international matches and Socrates was a touch over a goal every three matches for Brazil with 22 goals in 60 matches. Not to mention that Riva was a 3 time Serie A top scorer.

    When did I ever claim that Ribery and Conti couldn't impact the game? I devoted a hell of alot more attention to them in my writeup than you did to any of my attackers. Not sure how you fail to notice Marcelo's attacking contribution and Krol's brilliant passing from deep, for example, while bringing up Nelinho time and time again. Unless it's due to Neinho's goalscoring record, which would be a tad hypocritical given that you didn't like me bringing up Heynckes being far more prolific than Ribery/Conti.

    As far as the synergy argument goes, everyone thinks they have the prettiest wife at home as your old gaffer said. I see a Socrates/Cruyff partnership that should be superb, and a bunch of random players plonked in around them, particularly that Koeman/Gamarra centre back pairing. Meanwhile my CBs are specialists in the defensive tactic I've deployed, and I've actually got a nucleus of players in defence and midfield that excelled playing together in Krol/van Hanegem/Jansen
  40. Aug 9, 2018
    #40

    oneniltothearsenal Caf's Milton Friedman (and Arse aficionado) Scout

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    You are trying to distract from my main point here. That is that Puyol is famously weak against top tier dribbles. He has gotten burned very frequently from dribblers as the Di Maria example is just one of - Neymar did similar when he was still playing for Santos. Cruyff is one of the greatest dribble-to-end result players that ever lived. So the CB you are played in the position Cruyff is naturally attacking is extremely weak against technique that Cruyff is an undisputed master of. So basically Puyol is in a position where he either has to foul or just get his ankles broken frequently.

    I wasn't considering defenders so I should have mentioned that but Mauro Silva I would definitely rate on par technically. But Silva doesn't need to attack unlike you who are claiming Jansen is having some attacking influence.

    And Koeman and Nelinho (whom is still seeming completely unmarked on attacks) can still pick out Conti and Ribery if Ribery and Conti are contributing at both ends of the pitch. Also you can't have it both ways either, If Maicon and Marcelo are attacking they are well upfield leaving even more acres of space for Cruyff, Socrates, Conti/Ribery to attack into. Gamarra and Vidal can pick out those passes let alone the best defensive passers.

    Gamarra is outstanding in the air and more often than not would be going against Riva. Koeman as Cruyff point pointed was outstanding positionally and its not like Zico's game is cross and aerial play.

    You think your midfield is technically superior to Cazorla, Ozil and Ramsey? Fair play if you do but this is tangent and lets not go down in the weeds.

    If Marcelo is marking Nelinho then Conti either has an extremely easy dribble against the slow and non-agile van Hanegem
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2018