P-nut/Enigma vs Skizzo - Tactical Draft Final

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by Šjor Bepo, Jun 19, 2017.

?

Who created a better environment for their star player to shine?

Poll closed Jun 20, 2017.
  1. P-nut/Enigma

    42.9%
  2. Skizzo

    39.3%
  3. P-nut/Enigma 2nd half

    42.9%
  4. Skizzo 2nd half

    17.9%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Jun 19, 2017
    #1

    Šjor Bepo Full Member

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    [​IMG]
    Valcareggi is widely remembered for his success as a coach, in particular with Italy national team. Under Valcareggi, Italy lost only six games in eight years.
    Valcareggi is also remembered for devising the infamous "staffetta" match strategy during the 1970 World Cup. Due to his focus on defensive stability, as well as the presence of two pure, prolific goalscoring strikers, Riva and Bonisegna, Valcareggi felt that it would not be possible to field Italy's two most revered advanced playmakers at the time, Gianni Rivera and Sandro Mazzola alongside each other. He believed the two creative players to be incompatible with each other, due to the rivalrdy between their respective clubs, and as he felt that deploying both players alongside the forwards would offset the balance within the starting line-up, in particular as Rivera, unlike Mazzola, was not renowned for his athleticism or defensive work-rate. He therefore conceived the plan, which essentially consisted of Mazzola playing the first half of each match, whilst Rivera would play the second half. Despite Italy's victory at the 1968 European Championship and their second-place finish at the 1970 World Cup, the tactic was widely criticised by the media, in particular due to Italy's negative performance during the group-stage and in the final defeat to Brazil, despite demonstrating their ability to successfully apply a more offensive, exciting style of play with Rivera in the semi-final against West Germany. The two players only played together briefly in the final, when Rivera came on for Bonisegna for the last six minutes of the match.
  2. Jun 19, 2017
    #2

    Šjor Bepo Full Member

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    Team P-nut/Enigma


    Formation: 5-3-2
    Style
    - Counter attacking set up. Sit deep and compact and break quickly.
    Philosophy/Ideology of the tactical set up:

    We're setting in a counter attacking formation with two no-nonsense defenders as stoppers, Vasovic sweeping behind and pushing forward in possession boosting numbers in midfield. 2 fast wingbacks, who are also good crossers of the ball and that can overlap in attack and man their flanks. In attack we are going with similar style to Herrera's Inter and using the basics - vertical football at great speed, with direct passes to get to the opponent's box as quickly as possible.

    In defence we're staying deep, soaking the pressure, win the ball back in their half and launch the ball forward with speed and directness. Xabi Alonso or Vasovic can start an attack from deep and look for space on the flanks for our quick full backs, or either Signori, Mazzola or Vieri up field. All players can move quickly in transition and are used to counter attacking style of football. Directness is the key.

    Mazzola has Vieri and Signori - two excellent goalscorers with solid link up game and most of all great off the ball movement which will allow him to create space for himself or use his passing and vision to set them up.

    Player roles:

    GK:
    Michel Preud'homme - complete keeper with great distribution and excellent at starting the attacks if needed.
    LWB: Bixente Lizarazu - Stretch the attack, man his own flank moving vertically through the lines when in and off possession. Cross from deep and get the ball to the forwards.
    RWB: Eric Gerets - Same as Lizarazu from the other side.
    Libero: Velibor Vasović - last line of defence, start attacks from deep, overload the midfield moving vertically.
    LCB: Karlheinz Förster - One of the outstanding stoppers in the pool. Fluent in 5-3-2 system, excellent marker who is also a great overall defender
    RCB: Carles Puyol - pacy and good on the ball can cover the right side when Gerets goes forward.
    Deep playmaker: Xabi Alonso - look for openings both on the flank and up field, get the ball to the forwards as quickly as possible.
    Box to Box: Bryan Robson - An all action box to box midfielder, leader of the 80's United side and a great ball winner in midfield. He brings a lot of energy and never say die attitude in the middle of the pitch.
    Central player: Sandro Mazzola - focal point of the attack. Getting the ball to him, playing in a free role and pressing the opposition defenders off the ball.
    LWF - Giuseppe Signori - use his pace on counters, stretch the attack wide and more often on his favorite left position.
    CF: Christian Vieri - target man, keep the opposition defence honest, make space for Mazzola, use his strength in aerial duels to bring the ball down.

    Central player - Sandro Mazzola

    Mazzola’s
    role in the Grande Inter team was particularly tasking. A wonderfully creative player who combined a glorious touch with dangerous pace and agility, Mazzola was relied upon to bring Suarez and Picchi’s sweeping balls under control and immediately feed Peiro or take a shot on goal. Inter’s system relied upon maximum efficiency up front, and it was largely down to Mazzola to turn hopeful passes into clear-cut opportunities. Mazzola was a brilliant dribbler and finisher often leading Inter goalscoring charts. The combination of notoriously hard to please and a strict disciplinarian - Herrara, and a perfectionist and hard worker - Mazzola, was always going to produce scintillating displays of football on the pitch. One where technique, flair and skill meet hard work, determination, tactics and will to win. Mazzola's role in defending was not to fall back on the pitch when not with ball, but to harry defenders get the ball back.

    In this particular set up Vieri and Signori will compliment Mazzola's strengths but also allow him to play his natural game. Vieri with his strength up field can engage the central defencers in a way Peiro did, whilst allowing space for Mazzola to get the ball and run towards the goal or either look for Signori who will be hovering around the box or at the left wing. He will be overlapped by Gerets also allowing him to utilize the right flank and a 5-3-2 system will give more space for him to operate with two other clinical forwards around him.

    Like Grande inter in this set up we have chosen two very efficient forwards in Vieri and Signori, fluent in counter attacking set up and very direct with their movement towards the goal.

    The midfield is based on getting the ball as quickly as possible to Mazzola with two excellent passers in Robson and Alonso, who also possess considerable work rate and can stay deep to break attacks.

    The set up is aimed to get the best out of Mazzola in a way that it would highlight his dribbling and creative talent by being our focal attacking point and would allow Alonso, Robson and Vasovic to find him into space while Signori and Vieri occupy the opposition defenders. In the same time we have very direct and fast players on both wings and up front who will give a lot of passing options for him to link up and combine in the attacking third.

    Defence - Our defence is made up of 2 stoppers combined with a sweeper. A classic 5-3-2, composed of one of the best stoppers in history in Karlheinz Förster and Carles Puyol who slots perfectly into the RCB role. Both CB's will be tasked with no nonsense defending. When they win the ball they will simply shift it to either the sweeper in Vasović or play a simple ball to Alonso if it is on.

    Vasović will be tasked with deciding when to step into midfield and when to drop off so that our defence always has the numbers to deal with any threat.

    Both wing backs will provide the same roles of manning their flanks and providing outlets out wide.

    Defensive Line - Deep
    Marking - Custom (1 stopper to pick up the striker, other sliding wide to help the wing back, sweeper following any strikers that drop deep)
    Off the ball - Standing off
    On the ball - Rapid transitions through sweeper (or Alonso)

    Midfield roles:
    Robson
    will be playing as a complete box to box midfielder. His energy passing range and strength will be a huge boost. Both Xabi Alonso and Robson will be deeper when off the ball then either move vertically into space and shoot from distance, combine with Mazzola or get the ball to the attackers. Vasović in his libero role will be pushing up when needed to overload the midfield and keep things tight.

    Attack - Three pronged attack all designed to give Mazzola space to work and options to link up with. Vieri will occupy the centre backs whilst Signori keeps the pitch stretched to afford maximum room. Attack can expect to receive the ball quickly and will stay high up the pitch in order to gain ground on quick counter attacks.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Team Skizzo


    Style - direct

    Central Player - Gianni Rivera





    [​IMG]

    The 1969 Balon D'or was awarded to Rivera after his outstanding performances in the European Cup, in which he led Milan to the final, and a dominant win over Cruyff's Ajax team. His performance in that final is considered one of his greatest, most dominant performances, playing in the number 10 role, and assisting in 2 of his team's goals in that final.

    In that final, Milan were set up in the same manner we have here, with a sweeper stopper combination (Tresor-Vidic to Malatrasi-Rosato), a midfield two behind Rivera who are able to allow him to concentrate on the offensive side of the game by doing the "dirty work" for him, and also offer outlets for his passing (Clodoaldo-Jansen to Lodetti-Trapattoni), flanked by two wingers who would offer a balance of stretch the play with genuine wing threat, and also cutting inside to offer a direct goalscoring threat (Gadocha-Lato to Hamrin-Pratti) and a striker who could lead the line with his physical play, but also his capability to take part in the build up play with his passing (Careca to Sormani).

    Defence - Stopper with a covering defender. With the ball, Tresor will look to play it out from the back, or use Amoros/Bossis to bring it forward when available. Vidic comes in for the stopper role.

    Midfield - Jansen and Voronin will look to win the ball back quickly, doing their usual defensive job in front of the defense. When they have the ball, they will look to quickly play it into Rivera who will dictate the play and use the space available created by the movement around him. Voronin will tend to hold his position a little more, Jansen will look to drift when in possession to open space and offer another outlet for Rivera.

    Attack - Gadocha will look to offer more of a genuine wide threat, stretching play, and looking to deliver balls into the box. Lato offers the more direct threat, cutting in and making runs in behind for Rivera to pick out. Careca comes in and will look to get involved in the build up, linking up with Rivera, but offering another runner in behind, playing off the shoulder of the defender at times and using his movement to find space for the vision of Rivera to pick out.

    Rivera is obviously the player intended to build around, and we've set him up here in a very similar style which led to him winning the Balon D'or. Everyone around him is tasked with freeing him up, and offering him the best possibly platform to shine and thrive, pulling the strings as he did at his very best.

    KEY POINT: As i made mention of in the first round..all key players around Rivera thrived in a set up where they played with a similar central figure. Lato and Gadocha with Deyna, Jansen with Cruyff, Bossis/Tresor/Amoros with Platini, and Careca's all around play helps with the link up of the unit. All of them were part of very successful teams and part of a bigger unit which was led by a top-tier central playmaker/figure.
  3. Jun 19, 2017
    #3

    Šjor Bepo Full Member

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    • Draft matches would be decided based on who has crafted/built the more coherent and cohesive tactical set-up around his main star as opposed to who might win in a fantasy encounter. Hopefully, this paves way for interesting discussions on the set-ups themselves - delving deeper into the creation/evolution etc of said set-up - and the personnel fit.
    • Voters are asked to consider the XIs featured as 2 separate teams not like a classic game of football, and to consider to what extent the manager has succeeded in building around his central figure. This is not a fantasy match but a comparison of 2 tactical attempts.
    • Teams will be built and judged for best tactical fits rather then the quality of the team. First, team has to be perfectly built around the central figure, if both teams are very close then you look at the other specific pairings, good fits for the team etc. if the level is still close then you watch at quality of the individual players except of the central player.
    • After 12 hours there will be a change of central players.
    • First you vote for the first half as after 12 hours we will add 2 more options to vote so vote so you can vote for the second half attempt as well. At the end the votes will be add together and we will declare a winner.

    good luck @Skizzo @P-Nut0712 @Enigma_87
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
  4. Jun 19, 2017
    #4

    Ecstatic Full Member

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    Who are the new players?
  5. Jun 19, 2017
    #5

    Šjor Bepo Full Member

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    Voronin and Careca for Skizzo, Lizarazu and Preud'homme for p-nut/enigma.
  6. Jun 19, 2017
    #6

    Chesterlestreet Man of the crowd

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    I don't think the reinforcements change anything (significantly) when it comes to rating the efforts of the managers: Both setups should suit the main man very well – as was the case in previous rounds.

    In other words, I'm waiting for the second half. How they deal with the switch-a-roo will be the decider.
  7. Jun 19, 2017
    #7

    Enigma_87 You know who

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  8. Jun 19, 2017
    #8

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    Yeah not much to change tbh. We went with Lizarazu as the better individual player on the left side compared to Ze Roberto and upgraded on the keeper as the second player would've been sideways move either way.
  9. Jun 19, 2017
    #9

    Šjor Bepo Full Member

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    Then rate the teams on the basis of player quality, you can have 2 votes in the end anyways.
  10. Jun 19, 2017
    #10

    Chesterlestreet Man of the crowd

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    Indeed.

    To be more precise (compared to what I said above), I should probably say that the reinforcements are good, make sense, etc. And possibly said reinforcements make the setups even better with regard to the main man: In your case, Lizarazu is simply a better player who will further strengthen your left side, which in its turn will make the whole thing – with Mazzola as the central piece – work even better.

    But it gives you no edge over Skizzo – who has strengthened in a comparable way, equally well suited to his particular needs, etc.

    The relative quality of the jobs you've both done remains the same, in other words: Too close to call for the first half – for me.

    Will be very interesting to see how you both go about it in the second half – especially interested to see what changes (if any) you make in the supporting cast to accommodate Rivera.
  11. Jun 19, 2017
    #11

    Chesterlestreet Man of the crowd

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    I don't think there's much of a meaningful difference: If there'd been a clear gap in overall quality, sure - but I don't see that. You'd have to calculate it finely, which I don't think makes sense - might as well toss a coin.

    It's simply a draw for the first half, as I see it.
  12. Jun 19, 2017
    #12

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    Yeah indeed, hard to break the chemistry up front or in midfield and tbh particularly in midfield we have probably better choices on the bench than in the pool that was left. :D

    Skizzo also peaked early and made man to man slight upgrades so he has taken the same road as us tbh - fine tune the set up and the team he decided from the off.
  13. Jun 19, 2017
    #13

    Moby Dick

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    Yeah no point voting before HT.
  14. Jun 19, 2017
    #14

    Šjor Bepo Full Member

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    i like enigma/p-nut better from personal standpoint but i struggle to see the point of Xabi Alonso in that team tbh
    Its not a deal breaker nor a terrible fit but its a bit pointless and he wouldnt be at his best, would prefer both Coluna/Veron in that spot, no need for a holding midfielder with back 5 behind.
  15. Jun 19, 2017
    #15

    P-Nut0712 fan of well-known French footballer Fabinho

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    Can see this being a theme.

    The teams are incredibly close so most will just vote on how we incorporate the other player instead of deciding who has done better here.
  16. Jun 19, 2017
    #16

    P-Nut0712 fan of well-known French footballer Fabinho

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    He's in there for a couple of reasons.

    He doesn't fill space occupied by Mazzola and also he is known for his raking passes. That's a key tactic that we wanted to get across with the quick counter attacking.

    Whilst Veron has a similar passing range he was criticised for not shoring up the midfield. Alonso provides all we needed from Veron in that position as well as adding steel.
  17. Jun 19, 2017
    #17

    Chesterlestreet Man of the crowd

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    I'd agree if he were a holder, primarily. But he's a designated DLP here, specifically tasked with certain playmaking duties (which you need someone to take care of). He's there for his passing range and ability to orchestrate - not for his holding qualities as such.

    Veron might have been a good fit as well, be it said.
  18. Jun 19, 2017
    #18

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    Yeah, exactly. We had Veron exactly for that, but there were some concerns for his defensive game, which is something we had to address as it was the only talking point as of the first round.

    He's there from deep to start the attacks and move the ball vertically.

    We have plans for him as anchor but as of now his DLP abilities, especially in a direct side makes more sense with his added defensive duties compared to Veron.
  19. Jun 19, 2017
    #19

    Šjor Bepo Full Member

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    @Chesterlestreet @P-Nut0712
    Veron was a much better fit IMO, much better under pressure, capable of going past players when pressured, more mobile then Xabi etc. The criticism he got in the first game was bs. There is no need for a proper DLP with Vasovic in there, Veron was perfect as a CM playmaker.

    To repeat, having Xabi in it isnt something bad nor will i vote against it because of him but Veron would work better, at least in my opinion.
  20. Jun 19, 2017
    #20

    harms Full Member

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    Agree on Veron/Alonso.
  21. Jun 19, 2017
    #21

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    I can understand where you are coming from mate, as I felt the same in regards to Veron. In a proper 5-3-2 it's really arguable who would fit better and everyone to each own. However I feel that even without the feedback in this particular set up Alonso is a bit better as we sit deep and although Veron is not a passenger, Alonso is better defensively which effectively with Robbo charging forward with the ball gives us the dynamism we need in midfield.

    So whilst we have a deep playmaker we also have the player who can carry the ball forward and move vertically from deep in Robbo.

    Essentially we're looking to stack up the defense midfield and transition quickly when recovering the ball, which suits Alonso pretty well.
  22. Jun 19, 2017
    #22

    antohan gets aroused by tagline boobs

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    Hard to separate the efforts (other than the alluring pictures trumping the grey dots). Mind, I thought only the central player could be all caps.

    Upgrades work, the only issues I see come from earlier rounds. I do think once PNut went back 5 Verón was the better option but I'm also not a fan of the Amoros/Tassotti upgrade if we are using Milan 69 as the blueprint. Anquilletti was clearly more Tassotti than Amoros.

    Remove either of those and I'd have a clear winner, that's how close/nuanced this is.
  23. Jun 19, 2017
    #23

    Moby Dick

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    It doesn't feel like either of these teams upgraded at all since the start. :lol:

    Am I the only one who thinks that with this completely new draft theme and judging process, instead of a tournament a simple thread with all managers putting up a proper presentation including the key player's history, style, etc and the rest of the team tactics would have been a nice way to go about it? Maybe a winner could have been done by asking everyone for their top 3 favourite efforts. But overall that would have been a nice thread with the wealth of information, especially about players who don't get enough spotlight otherwise. I don't think the tournament got much interest here, if at all.
  24. Jun 19, 2017
    #24

    antohan gets aroused by tagline boobs

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    Last time we suggested that there were hissy fits all over the place.
  25. Jun 19, 2017
    #25

    P-Nut0712 fan of well-known French footballer Fabinho

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    It would have worked better if teams had flaws. Then each round would have seen an upgrade moving towards having the player incorporated perfectly. However, most teams achieved this round 1 so it's got a bit stale.
  26. Jun 19, 2017
    #26

    Chesterlestreet Man of the crowd

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    Agreed.

    But I guess the primary question here should be whether adding Amoros makes any difference in terms of how effective Rivera – himself – would be.

    It's less like Milan '69, granted, but if it works, it works – I mean, re-creating the Milan setup (to varying degrees) is just one possibility.

    EDIT

    Skizzo does invite that particular criticism, though, since he mentions the '69 team explicitly in his write-up.

    Still, going by the draft premise he isn't obliged to re-create any particular setup.
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
  27. Jun 19, 2017
    #27

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    got the inspiration from Edgar tbh and sjor said is ok since the main player is properly highlighted.
  28. Jun 19, 2017
    #28

    antohan gets aroused by tagline boobs

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    The thing is that was the greatest asset from the start. Without any teammates it was an almost perfect replica of Rivera's EC and Ballon d'Or winning setup. Then Clodoaldo showed up for some bizarre reason and then Amoros.
  29. Jun 19, 2017
    #29

    Chesterlestreet Man of the crowd

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    Yes - you can say that.

    Tricky draft to upgrade properly in, though.

    You'd probably rather just leave the thing alone – if it weren't for the fact that you're expected to add something novel each round. So you upgrade in terms of individual quality, I guess, while trying to maintain the balance.

    Ideally, then, you upgrade Tassotti with a Tassotti style player who's slightly better – but was such a player even available?

    Anyway, I think one has to – simply – look at the effort as such: Does it work with Rivera as the main piece of the puzzle – and do the upgrades diminish/strengthen his influence (or neither)?

    But, again, by stressing the similarity between the effort and a particular blueprint, you do invite a certain kind of criticism – so, yeah, that's on Skizzo to some extent. Personally, I don't think it's enough of a negative to give P-Nigma an edge, though.
  30. Jun 19, 2017
    #30

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    Opting for remake of a certain team is always tricky. There are plenty of points that invite for criticism with certain key players/roles when you change personnel.

    We have decided to stay clear of making the same exact team around Mazzola(using Grande Inter as a blueprint) in terms of formation/personnel, but follow the same philosophy and style because that suits him pretty well and he will thrive on those mechanics. Ultimately an even bigger challenge for us to improve certain positions/roles so that it would underline even more his importance in this draft and fantasy team.

    That's why we have gone for more of improvements of the formation rather than the personnel around Mazzola, as when it comes to supporting cast it's tough to ask for more in the current pool.
  31. Jun 19, 2017
    #31

    antohan gets aroused by tagline boobs

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    Not at all. I'm actually more miffed at Verón being excluded. It's an Italian side and that's where he showed his best form.
  32. Jun 19, 2017
    #32

    Skizzo Full Member

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    Same to you mate!

    Not much to say as your team goes, you guys have obviously done a fantastic job, and like you said, we both peaked a little early and made marginal upgrades at best. (Or in my case sideways moves or made things worse at times :lol: )

    Look forward to seeing your halftime changes! I went and gambled a bit rather than using the same team with a different AM :lol: so we'll see how it plays out then!
  33. Jun 19, 2017
    #33

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    Nah, don't worry we've done the same :lol:

    Think it will pick up in terms of discussion after the changes.
  34. Jun 19, 2017
    #34

    antohan gets aroused by tagline boobs

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  35. Jun 19, 2017
    #35

    Šjor Bepo Full Member

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    yeah but not by much, HT will be around 23:00....a bit earlier because most of the half will be overnight while majority is sleeping.
  36. Jun 19, 2017
    #36

    Chesterlestreet Man of the crowd

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    Heh, yeah - seconded.

    Timing's awful - have to get up early and will be on the road for most of the day tomorrow.

    Still, fair is fair. Have to give people a chance to vote for the 1st half, I guess - even though it looks like many consider it too close to call (haven't seen the votes, of course, so could be wrong about that).
  37. Jun 19, 2017
    #37

    antohan gets aroused by tagline boobs

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    Precisely why you should bring it forward. 12h+12h isn't two halves given it's more likely 12h+4h with sleep falling squarely in the 2H
  38. Jun 19, 2017
    #38

    Šjor Bepo Full Member

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    i reckon 23:00 is fair for everyone, will maybe push it towards 22 but thats the most i will go...
  39. Jun 19, 2017
    #39

    Chesterlestreet Man of the crowd

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    Do the twenty two. It even rhymes.
  40. Jun 19, 2017
    #40

    P-Nut0712 fan of well-known French footballer Fabinho

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    I've no problem with it being brought forward. I'm in work tonight so I'll be around to discuss with no one :lol: