Player Power

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by SAred, Oct 2, 2018.

  1. Oct 2, 2018
    #1

    SAred Full Member

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    Player Power - How does it even come to this.

    If your not happy with your boss you need to just grin and bare it until you find alternative employment, its life. But here we have players downing down tools because of dislike for there boss, surely there has to be some form of punishment that can be handed out to those players that are causing issues. This Pogba / Jose feud should never of been made public and if the player makes it public he is the one to get punished. How are these players determining what goes on in the clubs they represent.

    If the manager cant control the situation then others higher up like Woodward need to step in. The club is paying these lot a great deal of money to put a good shift in but the little snowflakes are acting like kids. Where is a Roy Keane when you need one.
  2. Oct 2, 2018
    #2

    Slevs likes to play with penises

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    1) Our CEO is a money man and as long as Pogba (and similar) are bringing in the marketing money, he's okay with the status quo.

    2) Players make huge amounts of money, especially at a club like Man Utd. So it is extremely difficult to move on discontent players since they won't get the money offered here elsewhere. Hence, it's extremely hard to sack/sell them.
    I think I read somewhere that Lingard makes more money than Asencio (someone correct me on this). We seem to be extremely bad at negotiating with agents regarding player salaries.

    3) Sacking a manager is financially cheaper than sacking players. Although this gives rise to player power and significantly diminshes any coming manager's power, unfortunately a money man CEO will always make this decision.
  3. Oct 2, 2018
    #3

    Slevs likes to play with penises

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    To emphasize on this point, Matteo Darmian reportedly makes 60,000 pounds a week.

    That just explains what's wrong with this club.
  4. Oct 2, 2018
    #4

    ZenMaster Coltrane New Member

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    If that's how you go about constructing your argument then I can't take it seriously. I don't even agree with your premise that you just submit to whoever is above you in the hierarchy of power. You got huge abuses of power in every walk of life (government, the church, school etc...) In the context of a football club and this specific situation...Jose Mourinho has wracked up a litany of fireable offenses outside of on-the-field performance. Talking down the 'heritage' of the club, continually going public about his 'lists' and taking digs at the scouting department (that is airing the dirty laundry).

    Attitude reflects leadership. While Woodward is a horrendous CEO, Mourinho's MUN tenure has been a classic example of self-preservation. If JM is captaining the ship, who the hell wants to follow someone who gives no second thought to manufacturing public spats with players, using them as pawns in his narcissistic quest for 'Respect'. Nah, the man is toxic. You can make a chain of command argument when the motives are pure and the leader is selfless. But that's not the case here.
  5. Oct 2, 2018
    #5

    Slevs likes to play with penises

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    Then why sign up to play for him?
  6. Oct 2, 2018
    #6

    BigGiantHead New Member

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    Some people say that we [Woodward] are bad at signing players, some people say we are paying too much for the players. If we want to get the best players we have to pay them top money (because of competition). If we pay one player big wages others will also come asking for better salary.

    But I agree that it seems that some players has too much power. The manager should act sooner when a player starts to act out. Then the situation won't get out of control. Just before the game Mourinho said to the press that no player is bigger than United, obviously refering to Pogba, but then starts him in the next game. That was a bit wierd to me.
  7. Oct 2, 2018
    #7

    JPRouve can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate Scout

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    I see a couple of issue, first it's not simply dislike, generally managers lose their players when they lose their trust from a managerial standpoint, when players lose faith in his abilities and when they don't sympathize with the manager. Something that we often ignore is that athletes are around excellent coaches and managers from age 15 to the end of their career, so they have a clear idea about what a good, in-form manager looks like. Secondly you assume that they need to be punished as if there was necessarily something to punish, a bad situation will affect people mentally, players purposely down tooling isn't something that you often hear, the most likely scenario is that the players have their moral shattered. And finally money has nothing to do with it, you can pay all the money that you want it won't affect people true feelings, they can act to some extent but if their moral is affected then it's game over.
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2018
  8. Oct 2, 2018
    #8

    Bruno Marques New Member

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    It's really hard for people to figure that both sides are wrong. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

    Denial isn't only a river in Egypt. The problem runs deeper than just the player or just the manager. You think any of those will have any problem getting loads of money on other clubs?

    They will keep getting rich, we will keep asking for managers heads or players heads.

    If we want the club to be healthy we can't second guess what the guy that was hired to run the football team is doing. You can't have results if you keep undermining. We need to set straight objectives.

    Is it to win or to get "flavors" every transfer season. I bet Martial sells lots of shit and we are talking about a player that did one great game 4 years ago or something like that.

    Fans need to wake up and stop finding God's in humans that have lots of fails and some will never be has good has fans think they are.
  9. Oct 2, 2018
    #9

    Micky Targaryen Full Member

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    The bolded part is debatable. But anyway, for argument's sake, let's say we agree on that; It still isn't the players' job or duty to step in to object and start a mutiny in the dressing room or mouthing off to the press. It is the board's duty to deal with the situation as they see fit. It is up to them as to whether they deem Jose's antics as "fireable" or not. And so far, we are all in the dark as to what they are thinking. However, as for Pogba, we sure as hell know what he thinks of his manager because he just can't simply shut his gob up. Either step onto the pitch and play your best game each week, or request to leave the club. Jose has his faults too, but since this is a thread about player power, I'd say that player power is just as toxic or even more, compared to Jose's antics.
  10. Oct 2, 2018
    #10

    giorno Full Member

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    This isn't just about finances and money man. Replacing 1 employee is easier than replacing 15. Especially when said employee can be replaced at any time, while the other can only be replaced within restricted windows, and generally doesn't involve negotiating with third parties. And then there's the inherent value of team vs manager. Finally, there is cost
  11. Oct 2, 2018
    #11

    JPRouve can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate Scout

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    And there is responsibility, unless we assume that Mourinho had nothing to do with the players signed or that only the players that he didn't sign are an issue then he is part of the problem and a crucial part too because he failed to manage them and failed to identify the correct profiles in the first place. In that case he should logically be the first employee to sack then the other trouble makers follow.
  12. Oct 2, 2018
    #12

    hasanejaz88 Full Member

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    I don't know what you're talking about with your reference to a regular job. It's not the case here that one person is unhappy with the boss, the news leaking through is that a significant number of players are against the manager and there is a split in the team. If that were a case in an everyday business, then it's most likely that the manager of the department will get fired because it simply means he can not manage that department. I manage a small team, if members of my team consistently go to my boss and say that they are unhappy with how I manage them then it's likely I will get demoted, with someone else then leading the team.
  13. Oct 2, 2018
    #13

    SAred Full Member

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    It maybe is easier to replace 1 over 13 but there has to be a hierarchy order otherwise chaos evolves. Jose like him or loath him has been appointed to manager the club and what ever he says stands. Pogba knew what he was getting into when signing for Jose so why is he having a hissy fit when the football that he signed up for is getting played. Players need to play according to the manager's philosophy rightly or wrongly. Jose is in charge not the overpaid players. Play your heart out your getting paid enough to do so simply has.
  14. Oct 2, 2018
    #14

    SAred Full Member

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    Complain to the boss i.e Woodward and if Woodward is happy with Jose get your boots and play to the best of your ability. Don't down your tools to get him fired.
  15. Oct 2, 2018
    #15

    Sky1981 Fending off the urge

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    Players these days.

    Told to run and play according to the manager = shackling

    Critized for being shit = thrown under the bus

    Dropped for tactical reason = hated, disliked, anti teacher pet.

    Lukaku being played every game =favoritism (neglecting the fact that he's our only natural striker)

    Explaining the conditions of why a defeat happens = selfish self preservation.

    Ceo providing funds = wasting money on star player.

    Ceo starts to question purchase list = not backing the team.
  16. Oct 2, 2018
    #16

    hasanejaz88 Full Member

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    It's the managers job to motivate his/her employees to work. If the manager isn't able to do that, knowing that these same employees were successful with other managers or within other organizations, then the manager will most likely work. Again, you can say 'get your boots on' to one or two employees but not a whole group of them who don't want to work for him/her anymore.

    The big difference is Mourinho never criticizes himself for being shit when he clearly has been (eg: Sevilla). Instead he chooses to criticize the players, board, scouting and even Manchester United's history itself. That's why a player may have a problem working for him, because whenever they lose it's always you who is at fault, even when clearly you know the manager's tactics are part to blame.
  17. Oct 2, 2018
    #17

    gajender Full Member

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    May be it's just me but I don't think our players gave up even Under Moyes or Van Gaal may be they weren't simply good enough just like managers they were playing under but they did try their best it's only Mourinho's reign where it seems they have given up just a thought may be it's the manager not the players.
  18. Oct 2, 2018
    #18

    Fracture90 Full Member

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    Some people pretending like everything has been fine and dandy but the players, being mischievous sloths they arez all of a sudden decided to down their tools against manager who's been nothing but loving, protecting, caring and supporting of them. Not to mention the leaps and bounds they made improving under him.

    Pro sports isn't like your daily 9 to 5 job, where you rarely can allow yourself a benefit of missing a paycheck for a month, they have plenty of money and security that comes with it, so if they feel under-appreciated by their manager, or that they're not developing under his leadership or that they won't be competitive on trophy winning aspect of the game, they know there's always another club they can earn money.
  19. Oct 2, 2018
    #19

    Stacks Full Member

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    Its even worse when they are paid a million a week. Ordinary people play money to watch their team and these millionaires don't put in effort because they are "sad". wages should be effort based as well as performance based.
  20. Oct 2, 2018
    #20

    KirkDuyt Full Member

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    Players are not regular employees. They're extremely overpaid kids who let the adulation of millions and millions of fans go to their head to the point where they have no clue about responsibility or accountability. You can't expect normal behaviour from these millionaire punks. At least, not from most of em. They deserve the money they get because that's how capitalism works, but that doesn't make it any less crazy for a barely 20 year old uneducated kid to have a million pounds to his name.

    Aside from that, people come to the stadium to watch the players, not to watch the coach or the board of directors. This gives them a certain amount of power. No one starts supporting a club because they like the chairman. They start supporting a team, because of players. Football is all about the players.
  21. Oct 2, 2018
    #21

    ZenMaster Coltrane New Member

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    You go compile the list of Pogba quotes and I'll get you 2+ years of Mourinho quotes...actually no. I got Pogba's right here..."We need to attack, attack, attack,...", "I can't say anything or I'll be fined". I've never seen anything so mutinous! There are obviously a bunch of people who have enormous issue with what players earn and project their anger towards them in irrational ways. What's Mourinho's salary? A 5-3-2 with 7 defensive players vs WHU. McTominay deployed as a pawn in some year-long running humiliation ploy. Supreme value for money right there. How many times has Mourinho separated himself from the club in his attempts to preserve his legacy? The better question is, when has he not? But just sit there and complain about hair cuts and pine for a time gone by when players like Keane never fell out with the manager.

    Hazard tired of Mourinho and Conte. Pogba has played for Conte, Allegri and Deschamps with little drama. Mourinho used the same 'defensive' critique of Hazard as he did this weekend with Martial. It's the same tired playbook. If you can conclusively demonstrate Mourinho's tremendous principled leadership over the last 2 years then I would consider further discussion. Attitude reflects leadership.

    /end
  22. Oct 2, 2018
    #22

    SAred Full Member

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    There where not to many downing down the tools under Sir Alex watch.
  23. Oct 2, 2018
    #23

    giorno Full Member

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    And the hierarchy is usually respected. Why is it that Mourinho is the only PL manager facing this problem, and why is he only facing it now, into his third season in charge? Mourinho is failing at his job, simple as that. Players stepping out of line is the result, not the cause. They're still in the wrong when going public with it, of course

    Why would you assume Pogba would know what working with Mourinho would be like when he signed?

    Yes, the manager is the one in charge, and players should do as he says and not publicly undermine him through the media.
    Players are also human beings, and as such will not simply bow down and accept a bad working environment.

    They are. Nobody's playing badly on purpose. What you are seeing now is the best your players can do right now. Refer to @JPRouve's excellent post
  24. Oct 2, 2018
    #24

    SAred Full Member

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    Pogba knew exactly the style of Football Jose plays he has hardly adapted his style over the years so attack, attack, attack is a swear word to safety first Jose. Pogba knew this when he signed or was it his cool 250 thousand a week that made it all better, now he is complaining I'm confused.
  25. Oct 2, 2018
    #25

    KirkDuyt Full Member

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    Pogba sort of did, by throwing a tantrum and leaving when SAF didn't guarantee him playing time. But aside from that, Sir Alex was extremely successful and success breeds happyness. So they never had a reason to.
  26. Oct 2, 2018
    #26

    JPRouve can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate Scout

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    The issue is that you don't seem to give any sort of meaning to the words "appointed to manage the team". That's the issue here, this has a meaning, if he isn't doing it properly then it will have direct consequences on the employees under him, the players, coaches and scouts. Sometimes it's seems that people consider that the title means that you are actually doing it properly, the title means nothing, the manager being manager means nothing, the only thing that matters is his actual management, his actual decisions, his actual actions.
    If a manager is doing his job properly and someone for some reason tries to undermine him then you would have a point but it would be a stretch to apply that to the current context. Truth be told I don't remember a single occurrence where players turned against a manager for absolutely no reason.
  27. Oct 2, 2018
    #27

    settembrini Full Member

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    Motivating the people that work under you is an important part of a manager's job. Mourinho used to be extremely good at it and is now unbelievably bad. His dysfunctional working relationship with players and staff has cost him his last two jobs and it will cost him this one too.

    Also can we stop with the ageist nonsense about how young people today are spoilt snowflakes who don't have the character of previous generations. It's an ahistorical alt right fantasy. The difference between Pogba vs Mourinho in 2018 and Bremner vs Clough in 1974 is that Bremner had rubbish hair and no social media.
  28. Oct 2, 2018
    #28

    SAred Full Member

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    He is managing the team in his way, don't sign for Jose if you don't want to put your defensive duties in. That is his style it is up to Jose to change it not the players to force the issue. He is the manager and he is in charge.
  29. Oct 2, 2018
    #29

    Amir Full Member

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    While I'm not in favour of player power, what if they are actually right? What if the manager really is lost, behaving badly, trying wierd tactics, and basically harming the team? Should they just do nothing? Would that be for the better interest of the club? And what about their own careers, or do they no longer own them once they sign a contract?
  30. Oct 2, 2018
    #30

    giorno Full Member

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    You are assuming Pogba's issue is the style of play. A style which is largely the same as it was at juventus, and with France.

    Pogba's problem with Mourinho is in the day to day, don't believe otherwise
  31. Oct 2, 2018
    #31

    JPRouve can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate Scout

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    You are just clutching now, which player doesn't want defensive duties? Surely you realize that it's probably not the issue, if anything our players have been too conscious of their defensive duties which has badly impaired their attacking duties. I don't know what the exact issue is, if there is one but if I was to guess I would say that it has more to do with the complete system and man-management where players probably doubts that they are put in the best position to collectively succeed and that they don't have the support of their manager. Now of course that extremely obvious assumption doesn't suit certain narratives because there is no bad guy.
  32. Oct 2, 2018
    #32

    djembatheking Full Member

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    Player power is something us United fans will have to get used to unfortunately . When SAF was in charge he had built up so much credit the club would always back him and the players knew this but he also had a team full of players that would have sorted problems and put any fires out before they started .
    Scholes , Giggs , Nev , Becks , Keane , Brown , Fletcher , O shea etc genuinely cared for the club to a level that they wouldn`t down tools and refuse to fight and put the effort in on the pitch even if they had had a massive disagreement with SAF , they would ensure that the only way to sort a problem was to fight and never give up .
    Even if the owners gave Jose full backing I doubt these players would give him their all for the good of the club , the owners know it , the players know it and Jose knows it so basically we are fecked with the old model . It is all a matter of time and the club really need to get it right , the way we have handled things post SAF has been dreadful though so hard to see us getting it right now .
  33. Oct 2, 2018
    #33

    SAred Full Member

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    This has everything to do with the players character, he is trying to be boss and Jose who is boss is not going to have any of it. Jose is the manager so why must he now listen to someone that plays for him. You may not agree with your boss but there is a reason why he is there and it is not your job to get him fired because you are a little upset with the way things are working out.
  34. Oct 2, 2018
    #34

    SAred Full Member

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    I have seen quite a few games that Paul could not be bothered bursting a blood vessel when he plays for Jose. That is why last season he was dropped for young Scott.
  35. Oct 2, 2018
    #35

    SAred Full Member

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    So its in his blood then.
  36. Oct 2, 2018
    #36

    Oneunited26 New Member

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    I totally agree

    I would have fired mourinho the night he came out with that complete bullshit when he lost to Sevilla, who he thinks he is? Well he’s a relic for one thing. Roy Keanes quotes towards the players prime Keane this is, would make Pogba’s quotes seem like a tea party which pogba said was true. The same narcissistic Mourinho who played Park the bus football playing three of the most immobile uncreative midfielders against West Ham, moans martial is not defending enough, when he had three defensive minded midfielders.

    We got a board who are spineless, gutless, to busy counting their penny’s than what needs to be done, by getting this lunatic out of our club. Jose is the symptoms of a greater problem, but he still needs to go. He’s become so toxic, the gas has got to a point where it’s a fire hazard. If chelsea listened to Jose back in December 2015, there be no hazard at Chelsea

    This is Jose mourinho’s vision for united, long ball park the bus football with Valencia, smalling, Jones, Young, matic, mctommney, fellaini, a big part of that unit, he got lucky shaw started getting back to where he was, because he was picking fights with shaw
  37. Oct 2, 2018
    #37

    Skills Snitch

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    Erm what? As far as I know he just left. Refused to sign the contract we had put out on the table, and signed one with Juventus instead.
  38. Oct 2, 2018
    #38

    settembrini Full Member

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    The point was that it's completely unrealistic to expect players (any players, from any point in time) to be supportive of a manager they have a broken relationship with. It doesn't happen in football and it doesn't happen in any job I've ever worked in either.

    Also Woodward is Mourinho's boss. What does Mournho do when Woodward doesn't sign a player he wants or arranges a pre-season tour in a manner not to his liking? He complains to the press. Have you made threads asking for Mourinho to be disciplined for behaving in this way? If not then why are you being a hypocrite and demanding that United player are punished for doing the same thing?
  39. Oct 2, 2018
    #39

    JPRouve can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate Scout

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    So you are comparing two players that had vastly different roles but even then they have comparable amounts of tackle per games, McTominay had more interceptions but he always play with the game in front of him since he is deployed very deep, on the other end Pogba has more attacking duties that he executes at a fairly high level. The issue here is that you are comparing apple with oranges and try to draw conclusions on kiwis.

    Also Pogba missed one game for other reasons than injuries and came in as a sub twice one of which was Carrick's last game as a player.
  40. Oct 2, 2018
    #40

    Stacks Full Member

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    actually many support because its their local club, irrespective of the quality of the players. some fans actually support the team