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Playing in an attacking/modern style of football exposes who isn’t good enough to play for United

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Raees, Jan 9, 2019.

  1. Jan 9, 2019
    #41

    MadDogg Full Member

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    We really weren't that good in all of those games. From memory the first couple in that run of games we were very good, but the latter ones we didn't really deserve to win by as much as we did. Obviously we deserved to win them, but our overall performance in the latter matches weren't really much different that how we were performing most of the time under Jose. We were just smacking in a few towards the end of the matches to get the score up after an otherwise tight match.
  2. Jan 9, 2019
    #42

    DeGea Full Member

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    Jones is terrible. He makes mistakes quite regularly, and the mistakes he makes are the ones that a United defender should not really make. Smalling is a bit better but still not up to the standard we require.

    Ask yourselves this: Can you see us winning the league and Champions League with a CB pairing of Smalling and Jones? I look at them both and they do not even strike fear into opponents. They have no fighter mentality a la Vidic, they just look...soft. Modern day players.

    Because winning both of those titles are what we should aspire to, nothing less. We are Manchester United after all, as Ole would say.
  3. Jan 9, 2019
    #43

    ForestRGoinUp Full Member

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    If we would get 60 million for 3 players comparable to them, we'd be stupid not to take it. We struggle selling players for 15 million it seems. Because of the completely shambolic squad management that's been happening around here.
  4. Jan 9, 2019
    #44

    MadDogg Full Member

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    A pairing of the two? Of course not. But Smalling next to a top defender could possibly do it. Ultimately he'll probably be replaced with someone who can provide more on the ball, but he's also a very good defender who is solid enough that he's not a glaring weakness.
  5. Jan 9, 2019
    #45

    ForestRGoinUp Full Member

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    In the top 5 teams alone there are probably 8 RBs better than Young. Nevermind the few others you could find down the table. He is quite obviously one of the weakest links in the team. In the running for worst starting XI player in the top 6. Technically poor, slow on the ball, positionally weak.
  6. Jan 9, 2019
    #46

    Red_toad Full Member

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    So we play better and plenty of players who'd been previously written off by many suddenly look vastly improved. So this is somehow a sign of who is now no longer good enough? Lets not forget that Rashford was dog shite and vastly over rated a few months ago.
    Basically we've played and beaten the worst teams in the league and suddenly that's elevated fans opinions of some players. It's been very apparent that tactics have held back some players and their quality was obviously not being utlised by Jose.
    Who is or isn't good enough for the team will be decided by either Ole or the next manager, fans should try better supporting his choices. It's very tedious reading negative stuff repeatedly about certain players.
  7. Jan 9, 2019
    #47

    Johan07 Full Member

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    People are confusing an offensive and a defensive playing style by mixing in stuff like goals scored and shots taken as proof of if we were playing offensively or defensively.
    Its perfectly possible to play a defensive style and score a lot of goals and have a lot of shots at goal.
    Mourinhos team at Madrid who broke the scoring record in La Liga is a great example. Classic Mourinho football. And yes: a defensive setup. All Mourinhos teams has more or less played a defensive setup.
    Our start of last season is a another good example. We sat low, didnt dominate possession and did not press the ball.
    Those three things are for me the definition of defensive football.
    Does not mean that you cannot do it well and win games and score a lot of goals. Its still a defensive setup to begin with.
    Its also interesting that Mourinhos teams that have scored a lot of goals almost always does so towards the end of the games when they are already up a goal or two.
    And they struggle when they are not able to break down the opponents early
    Which is perfectly logical because its when the opponents has to open up if Mourinhos team has scored an early goal. And then they get countered to bits.
    There was an analysis of the goals his Madrid team scored "that" season that is quite interesting. I couldnt find it on a quick look, I will see if I can find it ltb later.
    Anyways, this narrative of equating goals scored and shots taken to a team playing offensive football is incorrect. As well is equating few goals conceded to a team playing defensively. Same logic.
  8. Jan 9, 2019
    #48

    Rash Decision Full Member

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    In fact our 2nd match of that run, against Swansea away, was a dull, tight affair with the only goal being scored via a set piece, until the last 10 minutes or so when we scored 3 in quick succession. Everton at home was similar too. Against Leicester at OT we had an amazing 1st half in which we scored 3 set piece goals (!), then had a very dull 2nd half in which we conceded 1 and scored none. Crystal Palace at home I remember being a shit game despite the 4 goals - at that point CP were in dire straits and hadn't won a single game I believe. I remember West Ham and Newcastle at home being good games, although against West Ham in particular we didn't seem to get out of 2nd gear.
  9. Jan 9, 2019
    #49

    Maccataq Full Member

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    Am I the only one who thinks that Mata's demise has been greatly exaggerated? He's a class player - of course he needs pace around him and if playing on the right he needs an effective attacking full back (not you Valencia). He'll probably not get into our strongest 11 if we finally buy a right sided attacker but he just has a great habit of passing to team mates, building attacks, making and scoring goals.

    I would also slightly disagree that Young is holding us back. His passion, commitment and work rate are 2nd to none and ok, we need to upgrade our full back positions but I would be happy to have him as a squad player moving forward; I think he has looked good under Ole so far as an attacking full back against weaker teams.
  10. Jan 9, 2019
    #50

    Raees Legal Guardian of the Football forums

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    The main point of the thread was not opinions on certain players - though I did so to expand on my point - but rather that by playing in this style of play will it be easier for the club to make a call as to who is good enough to play for us and who isn't? I'm assuming from that part in bold - you agree with that sentiment, even if you disagree with the various opinions shared thus far about individual players.
  11. Jan 9, 2019
    #51

    Foxbatt Full Member

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    Lots of players have shown that they are not good enough to play for a club that is going to contest to win trophies. I am not on the back of Jones. I think he is liable to have a brain fart but lots of times he is a solid defender who needs a partner who plays regularly with him. But none of the players at RB is good enough and neither is Mata nor Lingaard on the right. I do not think even Matic and Herrera are good enough to be starting regulars and the less said about Lukaku the better.
  12. Jan 9, 2019
    #52

    Eckers99 Michael Corleone says hello

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    It's definitely clearer where our true deficiencies lie now. We don't need a whole new team anymore but we would be a different proposition if we had a top class right back, a commanding centre back and an exciting right-sided attacker. Another midfielder would make us genuine title challengers again as the rest of the side is fine.
  13. Jan 9, 2019
    #53

    poleglass red Full Member

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    Lingard is a funny one. I certainly think we can do better but I think he is criminally underrated by some. I don't get to games as much as I do as I live overseas now. I got to 3 games last season, it's not until I watched him live that I really truly appreciated what he does. His running off the ball is incredible, same with Rashford. The amount of runs he makes where he didn't get a pass because we didn't have the players to give him the ball, and the space he makes for others to get into with his running was as good as I've seen. Starting to see that fluidity now when Ole has played Martial, Rashford and Lingard together. He can be frustrating as hell at times but all attackers are. I just didn't realise his input into games from watching purely on tv. I do agree we need competition on that side, but Lingard still has his uses for us.
  14. Jan 9, 2019
    #54

    simplyared Full Member

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    Correct in some cases. Players being exposed under Ole's style of play.
    Shaw: not the attacking fullback I thought he was.
    Fred: Gets caught in possession far too often and puts us in danger. Saw that under Mourinho but even more obvious now when he needs to think quicker.
    Lukaku: Looks even more clumsy and ruins the momentum when he comes in.
    Valencia: Looks like age has caught up with him. Noticed that more than ever in his last game.
    Other players exposed would be: MacTominay, Fellaini and a few more.
  15. Jan 9, 2019
    #55

    Scholes1982 New Member

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    We don't know anything until we play Spurs.
  16. Jan 9, 2019
    #56

    Loublaze ATLien

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    I was going to respond to the above posts but you did it brilliantly. The fact we scored late goals doesn't mean we only stepped it up towards the end. I remember even opposition fans waxing lyrical about our attacking displays and there was real fear that United were back. You are right, we were neck and neck with City. All these guys need to do is look at the matchday threads on here for those games.

    Yes he went ultra pragmatic after the Pogba injury. Pity
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2019
  17. Jan 9, 2019
    #57

    Loublaze ATLien

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    You make some good points. He's definitely playing at a higher level now but I brought those games up and his performances to show that it wasn't always as gloomy as its been in recent times, we can't rewrite history.
  18. Jan 9, 2019
    #58

    JMack1234 Full Member

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    A lot of it is about having the players do suit your system.

    If you want to press high up the pitch and have a modern and dynamic front line. You don't really want players like Mata, Lukaku and Fellaini because they don't fit that system.
  19. Jan 9, 2019
    #59

    Rhyme Animal Modmins said "freeze" and I got numb

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    I'm not keen on writing players off - especially when they're dealing with a new system and / or are young and still learning.

    But I do think that Ole's football has shown who definitely IS good enough to play good football and win in style...

    Pogba
    Martial
    Rashford
    Lindelof
    Herrera
    Matic

    Are all good enough to play decent football and win games.
  20. Jan 9, 2019
    #60

    harms Way Staff

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    Agree, this is probably the only thing that wasn’t obvious under Jose.
  21. Jan 9, 2019
    #61

    adexkola Arsenal supporter

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    The retort thrown against players out of favor is, "can he start in a side winning titles?" Applying that to your list, I'd say only Pogba (DDG too) has demonstrated that quality definitively. For the others, we will need more than 4 games to assess.
  22. Jan 9, 2019
    #62

    NinjaZombie Punched the air when Liverpool beat City

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    Mourinho himself got Lukaku in, and used him in a way that didn't suit the player, in a system that didn't suit the club.
  23. Jan 9, 2019
    #63

    Di Maria's angel Captain of Moanchester United

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    First half shots:

    West Ham: 9
    Swansea: 9
    Leicester: 10
    Everton: 5
    Palace: 9
    Newcastle: 9

    It's a myth that we tried to attack only in the 2nd half. Our finishing was just better. This place excels in history rewriting.

    Our last five games this season under OGS (Cardiff first):

    8; 10; 5; 8; 5.
  24. Jan 9, 2019
    #64

    lysglimt Full Member

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    I would agree more with this if it wasn't so obvious that you had made your mind up about some players - without really having used the actual performances to decide who fits - and who doesn't.

    Lukaku - 3 goals in 1 + 2 matches - and perhaps one of the players most likely to improve under Ole. Yet you question if he is good enough. He has shown a lot of times for Belgium, Everton and WBA that if you play to his strengths - he will score (a lot)

    Phil Jones - you dismiss as a donkey - despite him being solid in every game he has played under Solskjaer. I actually disagree with you - I actually think a player like Jones is more likely to fit in a Solskjaer-system than under Mourinho. He is quick, a good tackler - and he is in my opinion a lot less likely to make mistakes 30 yards from goal than when he is defending near his own goalkeeper which we frequently did under Mourinho.

    And perhaps the strangest - Ashley Young. You can say a lot about Ashley Young, but there aren't many leftbacks in the country who can go past players like he can, so to say he is holding us back? Sorry mate - he is not.
  25. Jan 9, 2019
    #65

    L1nk Full Member

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    Who should stay for this kind of attacking system;

    De Gea
    Lindelof
    Shaw
    Pogba
    Rashford
    Martial
    Dalot
    Herrera
    Matic
    Lingard
    Smalling

    Who should go due to many factors, and shouldn't even be squad members;

    Bailly - Totally rash, brainless
    Jones - Made of glass and brainless
    Sanchez - Earning mega money and has done nothing to show for it, still think he looks a shadow of his former self
    Mata - 31 next season, slows down play, always roams inside leaving massive space on the wing
    Lukaku - Capable of scoring goals, but also capable of looking like an amateur with his touch and other things a standard footballer should be able to do
    Rojo - Hasn't made an appearence in so long, isn't that good either, can't make reasonable toast
    Young - 34 next season, really weak in all areas
    Valencia - 34 next season, really weak in all areas
    Darmian - Poor lad should of been sold ages ago
    McTominay - Does nothing, isn't good enough for this club

    To be honest I don't even think we needed the new attacking system to work all these obvious answers out, but you're right, I think it leaves the ones that should go exposed.
  26. Jan 9, 2019
    #66

    Fridge chutney Full Member

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    I agree with the sentiment of the original post of this thread. I disagree about Young. We've missed him when he's not played and he's done a tidy job when he has. I don't think he should be starter but he probably has another 1-3 years as a squad player.

    Also think Mata still has some to offer United. Perhaps as a rotating attacking option.
  27. Jan 9, 2019
    #67

    tomaldinho1 Full Member

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    I think these two are a bit premature - Fred hasn't really played/had a run of games and on paper could actually play in the way we are trying to. I still have some faith in him, just needs confidence and more and more game time given we are brushing over the fact he's also readjusting to live in Manchester, about to have a kid, language etc etc.

    Shaw needs to massively kick on this season but I believe in him. He's had lots of injuries and also, Mou's influence on him probably means he'll slowly start becoming more and more confident when going forward. Probably shits himself every time he steps foot over the half way line, looks to the bench and sees it's Ole not Jose and then calms down.

    On the others, completely agree. Lukaku has let himself go to rot, Valencia should have retired this season and McT, Felly are just not technically strong enough.
  28. Jan 9, 2019
    #68

    Fosu-Mens Full Member

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    Agree with most but:
    Seing as this is a thread about "modern style of football" and which players that suits this way of playing, then Smalling is one that definetively does not fit well into this category. Regardless of all the mistakes Jones make, he is far more capable on the ball compared to Smalling, and would rather have Jones as a backup compared to Mike. Smalling works well for a team sitting low, defending from crosses and does not want possession and it is a reason he performed well under JM.
    Would keep Young for another year due to him being able to play on both sides and is not as bad as Valencia.
    And would get rid of Fred (candidate for worst transfer in PL this season).
  29. Jan 9, 2019
    #69

    MadDogg Full Member

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    The amount of shots doesn't necessarily make you more or less attacking or an indication of how well we are playing. Just as an example we had far more shots in our first match against Bournmouth this season (under Mourinho) than we did in our more recent match (under Ole). I don't think anyone will say we were more attacking in the first one though.

    I never said we only tried to attack in the second half. It's that in a number of those matches we simply weren't playing all that well in general, and our style of play wasn't much different than what it was the majority of the time under Mourinho. It just worked better during that short period of time. Everton in particular was one of the least deserved 4-0 wins you'll ever see. Newcastle we were poor in the first half and much better in the second half. Pretty sure there were another one or two of the big wins in that period that were the same story.
  30. Jan 9, 2019
    #70

    Rhyme Animal Modmins said "freeze" and I got numb

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    Nonchalantly scoring the winner...
    Matic has actually won the PL - twice...

    And for me, Rashford isn't a good enough CF to have as 1st choice if we want to win the PL - but has now shown he's good enough to be a key part of a title winning squad.

    Martial, I agree, needs to show more productivity and grit at times, but I think is good enough to be in a title winning squad, maybe playing a similar role in the squad as someone like Sané does for City.
  31. Jan 9, 2019
    #71

    MadDogg Full Member

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    Smalling's best ever season (and easily the best season any of our defenders have had since Rio and Vidic) came under LVG in the highest line we've played since Smalling was in our starting line-up. He's always been better playing aggressively on the front foot rather than falling deep into the box. He's still our best at that as well, but it's not his biggest strength.

    His passing and lack of ability on the ball is a negative in a more attacking system, but not his defensive ability where it'll suit him perfectly.
  32. Jan 9, 2019
    #72

    Gasolin Full Member

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    Well wait, because a Martial / Rashford / Mbappe / Pogba offensive 4 top would see Rashford keep the CF position and will probably win tons of titles.
    I just replaced Lingard / Sanchez with Mbappe... anyway my point is, I think Rashford should be the CF, he is ready, he can score more than anyone else in the squad bar Martial currently and should be our #1 CF. No need to spend money there. Let's spend it in other positions where we have more urgent needs: CB, RB, RW, DM/CM in that order.
  33. Jan 9, 2019
    #73

    Scarecrow Having a week off

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    You just found out Shaw is a defensive left back? His attacking play was his main criticism as far back as his Saints days.
  34. Jan 9, 2019
    #74

    BigRon1985 New Member

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    I remember those games thinking at the time why did we take our foot off the the pedal when we could have scored 5 or 6 - very frustrating!
  35. Jan 9, 2019
    #75

    Fosu-Mens Full Member

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    The passingplay under LVG was slow and tedious to the extreme. Given enough time it would have improved(and so would Mike in this area), but moving the ball to the other side or passing the ball accuratly through the oppositions midfield from the back, is not something he can do efficently or to the degree that is needed.
    I agree that Smalling is a good duelplayer(aggressive), but since we are talking about keeping possession and playing fast/fluid football... For me the negatives outweighs the positives.
  36. Jan 9, 2019
    #76

    Foxbatt Full Member

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    We do not need two so called ball playing CBs. One is good enough and we need one destroyer too. One who may not be able play pretty football but also stops the opposing CF from playing. Players like Smalling , Jones and even Rojo can also score goals from set pieces if they train for it. Look at the Matic goal. It was a near post header from Lindelof. Why can't we take a few near post corners for the flick on? No under Jose it has been all into the hands of the keeper.
    We do not seem to even try to block their keeper. When under SAF players like Hernandez, Anderson use t block the opposing keeper at all times and prevent him from collecting the ball cleanly. I now think Jose got fed up and was not interested in this at all. He knew he cannot beat City and he decided to sabotage the whole thing.
  37. Jan 9, 2019
    #77

    MikeKing Full Member

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    It is a good point. I can totally see Smalling getting 4-5 goals if we keep up our style of play. He usually gets a few every season so are due a couple
  38. Jan 9, 2019
    #78

    TheRedHearted New Member

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    Even though only one of our attacker’s are currently in the top 15 of scorers, this season is rough to judge by.

    Had to comment on this. Shots per game aren’t indicative of a team controlling a game or being in control.
    I do remember those games being strong. And I wish we kept the tempo up because it was impressive. But to say more shots means more dominant and attacking is irresponsible imo. Many teams shoot quicker or in positions that aren’t threatening in response to not being in control.
    It’s even a topic now about the spurs and Chelsea game.
  39. Jan 10, 2019
    #79

    caid Full Member

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    Very few players i'd write off just yet. We look better with Rashford up front but Lukaku has scored a few goals, even if hes just coming on as a sub having him around wont hurt.
    Mata would probably be one of the better options if Pogba gets injured, cant imagine many coaches would be as reluctant as Mourinho to play him in the middle. Can't imagine many coaches would be a worse fit than Mourinho for getting something out of him either.
    Think Young looks our best full back atm. I presume the situation will reverse with shaw sooner than later based on age but I dont think replacing him would be that straightforward.
    Smalling is a good defender, unless the coach we bring in is really into having great passers in every single position his lack of ability with the ball can be worked around. Not saying he should be first option but I think hes closer than a most of our other defenders.
  40. Jan 10, 2019
    #80

    limerickcitykid There once was a kid from Toronto...

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    Anyone who thought Shaw was an attacking fullback basically have no clue what they're talking about and their opinions should just be ignored.