Playing in an attacking/modern style of football exposes who isn’t good enough to play for United

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Raees, Jan 9, 2019.

  1. Jan 10, 2019
    #81

    Patrick08 Full Member

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    Tottenham game will the the test for him in that regard.
  2. Jan 10, 2019
    #82

    Inigo Montoya Leave Wayne Rooney alone!!

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    I agree with that part
  3. Jan 10, 2019
    #83

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018

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    Not sure whether this is completely relevant to this thread, just saw this posted on reddit.



    Rio talking about Moyes and how he made opposition superior by worrying about them.
  4. Jan 10, 2019
    #84

    Keeps It tidy Hates Messi

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    For the top sides the destroyer type can usually also plays some Football(Ramos, Umtiti, Laporte,etc)
  5. Jan 10, 2019
    #85

    wolvored Full Member

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    Some of those 4 goal games came in the last 10 mins so to say they were unstoppable is as believable as saying we were just fitter in the last 10 mins than the sides we beat by 4 goals in the last 10 mins.
  6. Jan 10, 2019
    #86

    acnumber9 Full Member

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    All this tells me is that people are still forming the opinions they mostly wanted to. How has Smalling been exposed when he hasn’t played under Solskjaer?
  7. Jan 10, 2019
    #87

    SteveW Full Member

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    Irregardless does my head in.

    Pretty sure it's become so commonly used that many dictionaries are now including it. That doesn't make it right though
  8. Jan 10, 2019
    #88

    acnumber9 Full Member

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    Feel free to name those 8 better right backs for us. Do they include Victor Moses, Serge Aurier and a nearly 35 year old Stephan Leichsteiner?
  9. Jan 10, 2019
    #89

    12OunceEpilogue Full Member

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    Shut the feck up Keown, we're trying to learn about what it was like in Moyes's United dressing room and we've got you butting in with absolute twaddle.

    I think the video is important to the thread, as when combined with a good summarising post such as this:

    we see that the gist of Rio's comments could easily be applied to Jose's tenure, in which it was clear Jose put good players in a tactical set up and man-managed them in a way that didn't suit any of them.

    Ole is 100% right in the way he parries any talk of praise for himself by saying 'we have good players, it's their job to prove it on the pitch and the coaching team's job to facilitate that for them' and so far that's exactly what he's done, and exactly what Jose and Moyes before him failed to do.
  10. Jan 10, 2019
    #90

    ForestRGoinUp Full Member

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    Walker
    Danilo
    TAA
    Clyne (yes he’s better than Young)
    Milner (in a pinch, yes)
    Azpi
    Bellerin
    Trippier

    All better with the ball and without than our captain and starting RB
  11. Jan 10, 2019
    #91

    acnumber9 Full Member

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    You’re stretching with at least three of them. Including one that never plays right back.
  12. Jan 10, 2019
    #92

    JPRouve can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate

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    I totally endorse this message.
  13. Jan 10, 2019
    #93

    Foxbatt Full Member

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    We knew Moyes was going to mess it up from the moment he went on leave after getting the job and coming back and sacking the entire coaching staff. Ole has done it differently and said this is United and we do certain things in a different way. Of course he knows it as it was the way things were done under SAF.
  14. Jan 10, 2019
    #94

    The Purley King Full Member

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    Agree with this 100%. Its often missed by people, but his constant movement is a major factor in our attacking play. He might not always get the ball, but he's pulling defenders out of position regularly and he's making the opposition midfield think about where he is. He creates a lot of space for other players, who might end up getting the ball to use. Sanchez at his best used to do this too.

    People will argue, probably correctly that his technique can be lacking at times, but his sheer energy and movement on the pitch make up for that in my opinion. Contrast with Martial who plays on the other wing and you see the difference. Martial clearly offers a lot more in terms of skill, but its not all about that, you need a mix.
  15. Jan 10, 2019
    #95

    CognitiveNeuro New Member

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    I'd say TAA, Trippier, Wan Bissaka, Azpilicueta, Pereira, Doherty and Zabaleta have all been better than Ashley Young this season
  16. Jan 10, 2019
    #96

    ForestRGoinUp Full Member

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    Oh yes, quite a mix that Liverpool and City have on their wings. Or PSG. Or Barcelona or Madrid at their peaks. Or like when Bayern played with peak Robben on one side and peak Ribery on the other.

    I get he's a good kid, but collectively it's time to break this cycle of mediocrity and stop making excuses or justifications for it. It's debatable if he's a squad player on any of those teams or any of United's best teams, let alone one of the first names on the sheet. Snap out of it everyone. Need a mix...psssh.
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
  17. Jan 10, 2019
    #97

    acnumber9 Full Member

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    That wasn’t the question though. Three of them play for the top 6.
  18. Jan 10, 2019
    #98

    ForestRGoinUp Full Member

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    So just add the others to my list, which only strengthens my point and weakens yours. Come on man.
  19. Jan 10, 2019
    #99

    The Purley King Full Member

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    If we had 2 Martial's on either wing, then there is no way we'd be so effective (at least how effective we have been over the last 4 league games).
    Ideally Martial would combine his undoubted skill with better off the ball movement, but as it is, unless he improves that, we need someone that offers more in that regard on the other wing.
    Am not saying Lingard can't be improved upon, far from it, just pointing out that as it stands he's an important part of our attack.
  20. Jan 10, 2019

    ForestRGoinUp Full Member

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    I get that, but I was just pointing out that as it stands, we aren't all that good. And quite honestly, Martial and Rashford and Lukaku and Sanchez and Mata are all part of it, not just Lingard.

    A player on the right wing at Manchester United needs to offer far more than Lingard, simple enough. It's also true that we need more from our LW. Martial has A LOT of developing still to do and would only maybe get into Arsenal's first XI of the teams in front of us. Meaning a player of Martial's current ability and output would be a bench option in an ideal world. We've somehow made him think he's Hazard level. Rashford, for as fun as he is, would only displace Morata of the teams ahead of us (i.e. he should also be a bench option ideally). Meaning we are now consistently putting out the worst attacking trio of the top 6.

    Now depending on our timeline of course, we could just make the decision to develop Martial and Rashford, conceding that we aren't competing for the big trophies for a couple more years. That's risky, but it's fine and shows a plan.

    Top level teams attack from both wings. Strike fear in both opposing fullbacks. All the talk about moving around and finding pockets to mask the fact that Jesse doesn't want the ball at his feet in the final third is just excuse making or burying heads in the sand.
  21. Jan 10, 2019

    acnumber9 Full Member

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    It doesn’t really. My only point was there aren’t 8 better at the top 6. You made an extreme comment you couldn’t back up. I wouldn’t add Zabaleta to any list of decenct full backs either and it’s all well and good to watch highlights of players and decree them better based on a tiny sample size. In much the same way this forum had itself up in arms at us not signing Aurier from a bunch of people who’d only watched him on You Tube.
  22. Jan 10, 2019

    ForestRGoinUp Full Member

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    Oh I didn't mention Aurier. I mentioned 8 others that would be better options at RB than Ashley Young. You said a few are a stretch (good argument) and that Milner doesn't play there (he does when needed). So you wouldn't prefer Milner to Young as our RB if given the option? Go on and make your case.
  23. Jan 10, 2019

    acnumber9 Full Member

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    You didn’t mention any from the top 6. What argument is it that you’re putting forward exactly? Not really no, why would you prefer him there when he’s barely played there. When have you watched him at right back?
  24. Jan 10, 2019

    ForestRGoinUp Full Member

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    Christ I listed only players from the top 5. Get a clue, bud.
  25. Jan 10, 2019

    CognitiveNeuro New Member

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    Zabaleta has been a better Fb than Young this season based on optatstats and even whoscored.
  26. Jan 10, 2019

    DSG Full Member

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    Interesting thread with a spectrum of opinions.

    “Modern football” as it is popularly termed now is a high press system. 5 years ago, modern football was tiki-taka. Anyhow, high-press is essentially a quick counter system, with the added component of winning the ball high up the pitch when lost in the opponents third.

    To implement a high-press system, you need three quick forwards and three quick midfielders that can converge to the ball quickly, causing mistakes by the opposition, then playing quickly in attack. We have the forwards, we don’t have the midfielders. Matic is too slow to the ball. Pogba is very fast, but not quick. Lukaku is fast, and decently quick, but not like Rashford.

    Matic, Fellaini, McTominay all have their utility, they just cannot play this system. Too slow. Don’t get me wrong, there are few players that have scored more important goals for the club than Fellaini, but he’s not an option in a high press system.

    In defence, for a high-press system, you need ball playing CBs, but also, once the ball is lost and not recovered in the opponents third, the entire team drops and becomes very compact. Fullbacks support attack on the wings.

    To play this style, actually, both defence and forwards are pretty decent options. Lingard is ideal for this system because of his high work rate. He’s essentially like a poor man’s Dele Alli. Rashford, Martial and Sanchez all fit this system. Lindelof, Bailly, Shaw and Dalot are great options, Jones and Smalling less so, but not a disaster.

    The area that we need to improve is midfielders who can win the ball quickly and recycle possession.
  27. Jan 10, 2019

    acnumber9 Full Member

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    What is your argument for them though? A list of names and a player who’s played there twice. Good constructive analysis professor.
  28. Jan 10, 2019

    acnumber9 Full Member

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    Well case closed then.
  29. Jan 10, 2019

    cyberman Full Member

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    Nobody really high presses in England this season. All the top sides have curtailed it in one way or another.
    There's no such thing as a modern / progressive way to play. Its all nonsense based off of magical buzzwords that Utd fans have convinced themselves to be deep and meaningful.
    Nothing is as uniform as certain fans tries to make it out to be.
  30. Jan 10, 2019

    ForestRGoinUp Full Member

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    I'd have every single one of them ahead of Young in our team. How's that for an argument? Save Azpi who is maybe the best pure defender of the bunch, the rest are bigger attacking threats, as in they can actually beat a man, get to the touchline, get their heads up and play passes on the floor to runners. They can play quicker on the ground, they can get out of tight situations without smacking it up in the air like Young does. Defensively, well we see Young get caught out quite regularly so there can't be an argument that he's a better defender than they are.

    When you add in the others from clubs below us in the table, we might have something like the 12th -15th best RB in the Premier League. You've already thrown out stats when someone else brought those up. So it's your turn to make the case for Ashley now. You haven't done that yet.
  31. Jan 10, 2019

    acnumber9 Full Member

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    James Milner can beat a man? I’m sure your extensive knowledge of him playing at right back has told you all that. When did you watch him at right back by the way? Hard to argue against a biased opinion. It’s bizzare all these better full backs didn’t play at the World Cup.
  32. Jan 10, 2019

    Loublaze ATLien

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    Did you see the stats posted about the number of first half shots we had in those games vs the first few games under Solksjaer? You can also look at the match day threads for those games on here. We were relentless. Lets not rewrite history about that particular period just because it feels good to be rid of Mourinho

    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
  33. Jan 10, 2019

    caid Full Member

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    I'm sceptical. He looked pretty finished 2 / 3 years ago. Maybe west ham are giving him good protection this season. It sounds pretty absurd as a serious suggestion for a desirable full back though. Wan Bissaka has played 27 games in total. Azpilecueta would be utterly wasted playing right back for us.
    I'm pretty confident Liverpools collection of full backs would have looked utterly shit playing under mourinho and ours would look pretty fecking great playing for klopp the last year or so. None of theirs are anything to write home about or get jealous of. Were talking about James Milner ffs.
    Tottenham, City and Arsenal have better fb's than us, cant argue with you there.
  34. Jan 10, 2019

    meamth Full Member

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    Haven't you guys play FM2019? Pogba's new role is called Mezzala. :lol:
  35. Jan 10, 2019

    wolvored Full Member

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    I watched a few of those games and relentless wouldnt be the word I would use. Think you're looking back with a red tint, and perhaps you couldnt see no wrong with Mourinho
  36. Jan 11, 2019

    DSG Full Member

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    Disagree. Watch Liverpool. Watch Spurs. Watch us under Ole. The high press happens the minute the ball is lost in the final third. Once possession is maintained by the defending team, the drop into a normal defensive shape is swift.

    You’re completely wrong. Football evolves from era to era based on dominant new forms of tactics which tend to materialize from a certain region or league or club. Ever heard of catenaccio? Total football? If football didn’t evolve we’d still be playing a 5-3-2 and hoofing the ball forward. You should read a few books on tactics to understand this.

    Nothing is as simple as certain fans make it out to be.
  37. Jan 11, 2019

    Loublaze ATLien

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    I really disliked how we played under Mourinho and hated how he treated Pogba, I wanted him gone. You can't see the attempts we made at goal and think it was no different from what we're seeing now. Everyone here was excited about that start, shit even the pundits thought we were neck and neck with City not just in points but in attacking prowess.

    From BBC about the West ham 4-0 victory:

    Jose Mourinho's team were a constant threat against a poor Hammers side, offering excitement and encouragement to their supporters on the opening weekend of the new Premier League season.

    A few posts on the matchday thread for the same game:

    I just hope we play like this at home all season, no fear, attack attack attack and put the game to bed. Even if we don't win, the entertainment value is quality Posted by JG3001

    We can expect this excellent attacking system with solid defending in most of the games against the lower teams, atleast until January. Posted by Kapardin

    we had plenty of efforts on target, hit the post etc and it was just a super all round performance. Posted by Fishfingers15

    Wonderful display, putting the Real match behind them and getting on with what these players can do best ... great and entertaining football. posted by Grunge

    They're a lot more examples like this for the other matches, I think i've made my point
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  38. Jan 11, 2019

    cyberman Full Member

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    Liverpool do not press this season. Its just not happening and they're top of the league.
    City haven't pressed since October because they haven't the legs to do so.
    There's nothing special about these two sides and they're not doing anything that great sides from the past didn't do.
    Our 08 side pressed from the front and blew sides away within the first 20 minutes. Barca pressed sides to death and won multiple CL in that period while modern Madrid have won 4 out of 5 CL without their front line breaking sweet chasing anybody down.
    Its all nonsense trying to explain why we are average. We just can't be shit, football has moved on. Well guess what? We would be shit in any era.
    Well no it hasn't. Any top side from the past would be competing at the top of the league today.
  39. Jan 11, 2019

    Raees Legal Guardian of the Football forums

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    Both these sides literally just pressed against each other the other day with all of us watching.

    Liverpool press less than last season it’s true but to say they don’t press at all is a nonsense and especially the bit about City.
  40. Jan 11, 2019

    Patrick08 Full Member

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    They press all the time. Possession game does not work without pressing.