Pogba on the left

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by MyOnlySolskjaer, Jan 1, 2018.

  1. Feb 9, 2018

    EyeInTheSky Full Member

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    I am glad that this "box to box" idea has been put to bed by Jose in the Newcastle pre-game presser.

    There has been this weird agenda about how he has to do this role to a WC level at both ends of the pitch yet still be the most creative force in the team.

    he is a CM that is it.
  2. Feb 9, 2018

    Bobski Full Member

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    Which means he has to be judged as a CM, and when he is not doing the job of a cm, as happened at Spurs, he deserves to be criticized.
  3. Feb 9, 2018

    EyeInTheSky Full Member

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    This is probably the most depressing post I have ever read. He said it does not matter which system we play as Pogba will always be a CM in that system as opposed to being a Left back or anything else.

    Do you really think that someone with Mourinho's record does not care about tactical systems??
  4. Feb 9, 2018

    EyeInTheSky Full Member

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    yes him alongside other players who were not doing their Job. What is your point? Who said that he does not deserve to be criticized?

    He should also be praised when he does do a great job which is far more often than his bad games.
  5. Feb 9, 2018

    KristianMackle New Member

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    I will be very surprised if we lined up like that. What is that? 4-1-2-3? Why can't we just simplify it by going 4-3-3? With Alexis roaming and Pogba moving to Alexis' spot when he roams?
    And I like Mata, I really do but we need a proper right winger; someone like a Cuadrado or a Coman. That is how you achieve balance in a team.
    That's like City playing Sane on the left and David Silva on the right; it just makes no sense because he'll keep cutting in and throwing off attacks.
  6. Feb 9, 2018

    Jig1234 Full Member

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    It's worth the discussion. When we signed him I thought the only reason behind it was to switch to a 4-3-3 system. Not sure why you would invest £89M in a player to play in a position he is not naturally suited for. If the plan was to play 4-2-3-1. I think he could have got a midfielder more appropriate for that position.

    Why switch Martial to the right wing, a position he has not played in before in a big away game?

    I think these are legitimate questions because apart from Arsenal away we have not looked great in the big matches under Mourinho. He will also Drop Shaw and play Young instead but I think the two man midfield is the biggest issue. Pogba will always wonder off, leaving Matic in no man's land.
  7. Feb 9, 2018

    diplomat Full Member

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    Could be a viable explanation, but it felt as something more to me.

    Maybe this is the reason why Jose wants to keep Fellaini so much. My guess would be Carrick and Herrera going in the summer, with Mourinho getting someone to compete with Matic for the starting spot alongside Pogba. People hoping for a change to a 4-3-3 formation will be gutted when that happens.
  8. Feb 9, 2018

    EyeInTheSky Full Member

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    I don't think you can say that he is not "naturally suited" because he played in a different position in the midfield in a different league/team. Jose probably tried him in a different position as the tactics were dictated more by who was available and who was in form. You can't blame him for trying him in a different role but still in midfield as a player like Pogba has potential to be great in varied roles.

    I can't blame Jose for trying him there but I am also aware of the circumstances of it and hope that in future that the new CM we bring in will allow for him to flourish in the role that you pointed out.
  9. Feb 9, 2018

    Bobski Full Member

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    I can understand why Mou wants him to mature into being a proper CM. Too many headaches around selection and position when he plays like a luxury player. Even in a 3, in big games, he will have to show he can do a disciplined job, work for the team and make sacrifices.

    I am tired of reading how Pogba has to be in a very specific role in a very specific system, with certain players around him, before he can perform(and track a run) He is a world class talent, that is why people are hard on him, he could be the best CM in the world, rather him focus on that than being a wannabee 10.
  10. Feb 9, 2018

    GM K Full Member

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    To add to your excellent points, playing with Andrea Pirlo (one of the greatest deep lying midfielders the world has ever seen) and Vidal, is not exactly the same as playing with the likes of Matic (a great player in his own way) Herrera, Fellaini, Scott and a very past-it Carrick.
  11. Feb 9, 2018

    EyeInTheSky Full Member

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    I agree, or a particular blade of grass where he becomes ineffective. But at the same time, I do understand the argument that some players excel in specific roles. The good news as I see it is that he is still nowhere near his peak and that is a scary thought. He will definitely become more defined in terms of his role/position for the rest of the season and especially when we get some CM who can do the key roles we are missing for our balance in the summer.
  12. Feb 9, 2018

    Jig1234 Full Member

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    But he got recognition for being a 'world class talent' when he had Vidal and Pirlo next to him, in a system that complimented his ability. I am not saying he is above defending, I am simply saying the current system does not allow him to thrive or get the best out of him but more than that it doesn't give the team a chance of winning big matches, which is more important than Pogba. It's not just about getting the best out of him, it's about giving the team the best possible chance to win these types of matches.
  13. Feb 9, 2018

    diplomat Full Member

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    The main problem occurs from Pogba also believing he needs to play in a a three-man midfield. The post-match interview after the Stoke game proves it.



    Maybe Mourinho is not happy with this type of mentality from the Frenchman.
  14. Feb 9, 2018

    Raees Sporty Guy

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    Not convinced by Jose's comments there. Doesn't fill me with alot of confidence but we shall see.
  15. Feb 9, 2018

    EyeInTheSky Full Member

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    Some good points. However, the key here is that Neither Pirlo nor Vidal would do as good a job in their respective roles if Pogba was not partnering them. It works both ways. If Pirlo was asked to be box to box or just defined that would expose his weaknesses like pace, stamina and tackling as Vidal could not do Pirlo's role effectively either.

    Pogba certainly is not a burden like your making him out to be as if he was being carried by them. Every player needs to contribute their strengths and in the context of him at United we can't say that the players we have (not that you are) are anywhere near the WC level of his teammates at Juventus nor can we say that his current midfield partners have not been at all responsible for making things difficult and making him vulnerable and playing a less efficient game.

    The bottom line here is that he has had more good games then bad and is our best and most creative player thus far. The big games need improving overall as the better teams know how to exploit our midfield.
  16. Feb 9, 2018

    Bobski Full Member

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    Juve was too easy for him, he was in a dominant team in an easy league where his teammates did all the dirty and necessary stuff and allowed him to be the cherry on top. He was also 19-22, his best position and role had not yet been defined, it was natural to hope that as he matured he could develop a more rounded game and start taking on the tasks that a legitimate midfielder does. I have seen him do it for Utd, concentrate on moving the ball quickly rather than turn every possession into showing off how strong he is, track runners. Problem is he gets bored and wants to show more, immaturity.

    I am not convinced that Pogba in a 3, with more freedom in big game, is automatically the best thing for the team. Especially now we have Sanchez, another player who demands tactical freedom. Sanchez will give plenty of goals and assists though, while Pogba can score great goals but has never suggested that he can be a great goalscorer, or even a particularly good one.

    What is the consequence of building the team around Pogba in a 3. Say it is 4-3-3 with 2 wide players and a lone forward. The striker would have to be much better at holding up the ball and linking the play than Lukaku, no number 10 to keep the play flowing and to hold the ball under pressure.
  17. Feb 9, 2018

    GM K Full Member

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    We agree to a very large extent.

    My post was simply to point out the fact that when comparing Juve's Pogba and United's Pogba, people over simplify it by only referring to formations. There are a lot more factors to consider including quality of team mates.
  18. Feb 9, 2018

    mav_9me Full Member

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    At least IMO him playing in a CM two against the top 6 teams and away to teams like Burnely etc is THE major issue. Of course he is fine in a two CM against huddersfield at home. That goes without saying. What we did vs Spurs is the fundamental issue. Half the blame goes to the set up and half the blame goes to the player whose performance was not acceptable anyway.

    The Everton game is an example of your second point I bolded. He and our team was brilliant in the second half with him in a middle 3.
  19. Feb 9, 2018

    EyeInTheSky Full Member

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    Yes exactly. So many variables and the magic bullet suggestions are somewhat hopeful rather than firm
  20. Feb 9, 2018

    giorno Full Member

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    Pogba worked his socks off at juventus though, he run like feck and defended like his life depended on it. He was never a passenger for them in any phase of the game*. In his final season he was given more leeway and freedom in an attacking sense, but he was still asked to and did a job defensively. He was the player who won the ball the most in the final third, and usually when they were pushed back they shifted to a flat 442 with him on the left. I mean Pogba at juventus was massively hyped and universally acclaimed for his two-way domination in midfield, not just because he could do a couple nice tricks and play a couple passes...Luis Alberto's doing that better than he ever did this season and we don't have people calling for him to be a potential balon d'or winner...

    *when he played well.
  21. Feb 9, 2018

    ZAGREB RED Full Member

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    Wherever he plays, he needs to step his game up a bit and be a bit more consistent - it's a case of finding the right place for him in the team though.
  22. Feb 9, 2018

    Maurice Setters Training New Member

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    Fully agree. And, as he starts to mature into his late 20's in a few season's he will have to start to adapt his game. He has the talent to adapt and become a midfield general who dominates games.
  23. Feb 9, 2018

    kps88 Full Member

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    Think it was aimed at Rooney as well. Rooney specifically said he should be a box to box but also said he is at his best when he was no defensive responsibilities.
  24. Feb 9, 2018

    SS Full Member

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    That's literally the same thing.
  25. Feb 9, 2018

    abdo99 Full Member City Lover

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    Pogba should be given a free role in attack and should play on the left wing in a 4-4-2. Or on the left side of a 4-3-1-2 formation. Play Sanchez and Lukaku/ Martial upfront with Lingard behind and a 3 man midfield of Matic, McTominay and Pogba. It would look like this:

    Matic
    McTominay Pogba
    Lingard
    Lukaku Sanchez​

    That team has the perfect balance and Pogba is freed up from defensive duties as well.
    Another option is this:

    New CM Matic New DM Pogba
    Lukaku Sanchez​

    We'd need 2 midfielders in the summer for this system but it also gets the best out of Pogba. Barcelona use it as well. They set up like this:

    Paulinho Busquets Rakitic Iniesta
    Messi Suarez
    If we want to play the 4-3-1-2 or 4-4-2 formation we need upgrades in the full back areas because they're the ones who will provide the width. There aren't any wingers so the fullback areas are crucial to make these systems work. My preferred option for LB would be Sandro. Get Sandro and 2 midfielders (one DM and one CM) and we're looking a serious team next season. Jose already said we aren't looking for attackers so let's spend big on the fullback areas and midfield. If possible a commanding ball playing CB too would be very good.
  26. Feb 9, 2018

    Jig1234 Full Member

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    On Lukaku: He hardly gets much of the ball in the current system. I think in a three (with better full backs in summer) he would have more players around him. Pogba can get closer to him and create more. I think the formation is a big issue vs teams like Spurs and Liverpool who like to press high. We struggle more when teams come on to us and close us down. If anything it might actually help him.
  27. Feb 9, 2018

    clarkydaz Full Member

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    thats interesting if accurate. I admit I didn't watch much Juve, but maybe this was the player Jose thought he was getting
  28. Feb 9, 2018

    RMD83 New Member

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    I’m with Jose on this one. Some on here are defending Pogba like he should be given some privileges that other midfielders aren’t afforded. Perhaps Jose is trying to encourage Pogba to add something else to his game that will make him even better. When we got bossed by spurs, alli and eriksen closed down our midfield like heat seeking missiles. I’m sure they both see themselves as creative attacking midfielders and I’m sure they both could have played LCM in the Juve team that Pogba was in as well.
  29. Feb 9, 2018

    Rhyme Animal Modmins said "freeze" and I got numb

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    What's he actually said? Can't be bothered watching it and am getting increasingly tired of the whole 'how to get the best out of Pogba' issue.
  30. Feb 9, 2018

    kouroux 45k posts to finally achieve this tagline

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    Pogba has done very well in general for us. It is just that in certain games that most people watch that he has been underwhelming. The whole perception on him would change if he had a cracking game against Man City or Liverpool for instance.
    It can be unfair like that but it is also a consequence of the way he's been marketed and how he has marketed himself.
  31. Feb 9, 2018

    Rhyme Animal Modmins said "freeze" and I got numb

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    Nonchalantly scoring the winner...
    He has brought me many moments of aesthetic joy as a Utd fan, but almost always in games that a club like us should win.

    He has also brought me many moments of great frustration and annoyance, almost always in really important games where the best players step up and get better.

    Pogba's problem is that for all his natural skill on the pitch, the mental side of his game (decision making, temperament management) is that of an average player.

    I like big players to be able to adapt their game (somewhat), rather than to create more problems with where to play them - Sanchez, for example can play left, CF or 10, and will always show his class.

    If they have a very fixed position, they must be super consistent in that position and step up when the big games arrive - examples, Aguero, Matic, Kante, Kane - they are all pretty fixed in their positions, but they are all very consistent and they step up when the big games come 'round.

    Pogba is both inconsistent and gets worse in the most important games.

    I love him, I really do. I think he's a great character and I want him to take that next step up. But I've grown tired of the predictable outcome when you see that midfield 2 line-up before a match against a team even remotely capable of pressing.

    I've also become tired of him disappearing in the most important games.
  32. Feb 9, 2018

    kouroux 45k posts to finally achieve this tagline

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    I couldn't agree more. It is annoying because he is potentially the most talented of all the players you mentioned.
    In those big games, I feel like he should calm down because in most of them he tries things that are too complicated.
    However the last one, the Spurs game was a bit different. He completely hid.
  33. Feb 9, 2018

    Boycott Full Member

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    A central midfielder who can't do his job without having his hand held is not a complete midfielder. That's the essence of what Mourinho is saying and he is correct.

    On one hand people say he has everything to his game, on the other they want to absolve him of using it.

    How many times in the history of this club has the so-called best player been given all the power but no responsibility? The answer is none. Playing for Manchester United is a privilege not a right and if you can't step up when it counts then you won't be in the pantheon of greats.

    The reality is what Pogba is lacking in is actually quite basic elements of being a midfielder. I suspect because he has been so much better and bigger than his peers growing up he's never had to worry about it but at the top level in the most important games you need everybody on the same page. Pogba is guilty of playing his own game and indulging him will not help.

    Lets say he is playing at 70% of his potential now - continue to make excuses and he'll get to 27/28/29 still at that level because he hasn't had to work for it. Tell him now to grow up and improve those much needed attributes in midfield and he can be at 80 or 90% because a Paul Pogba who can read the game and be an asset both ways by extension will make Manchester United much stronger but also earn the right to attack the way only he can.
  34. Feb 9, 2018

    Highfather_24 New Member

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    Considering Jose's comments today about Paul Pogba being a box to box player, I would say he plans to keep using Pogba in a double pivot, as a box to box player. If that's the case, I dont see United's best front six changing next season :

    ----Matic--Pogba
    Alexis-Jesse-Martial
    -------Lukaku

    And if we wanted to go 3 man midfield, then we play another B2B midfielder and Pogba takes Jesse's role.
  35. Feb 9, 2018

    gavdim2002 New Member

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    We are much more in need of midfield Class compared to midfield Talent. Creative players all over the world are asked to do specific jobs in various matches and perform - why should Pogba be any different? The fact of the matter is, that we do miss and need the midfield Class of Robson and Keane - not the Talent of Veron (and did I love Veron).
  36. Feb 9, 2018

    Pexbo has never watched Star Wars

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    Maybe we should stop saying “Pogba plays best in a midfield three” and start saying “Pogba’s got all the talent in the world and should be dominating in a midfield two”. I think that’s what Mourinho is saying here and I think he might have a point too.

    Most midfielders play better in a three when they’re given freedom. Pogba isn’t most midfielders. He’s better than most and he’s capable of being a dominant force in a two man midfield. Time to step up.
  37. Feb 9, 2018

    RooneyLegend Full Member

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    He was better at Juve and i'm someone who did watch a lot of him during his time there(apart from his last season). There are differences that are easy to see have declined since he got here. He's defensively inept nowadays, something that was never true of him. His shooting didn't make it as part of a transfer. If you had told me that he'd barely have any long range goals since getting here i'd have told you to go do one. He also stops the game more than he used to, thinking he's Zidane or something. Back then the only time he'd do that would be to create a shooting opportunity. One aspect in which he's improved is his passing, seems to have more range, and shows more vision. That debut vs Southampton was everything we expected to get but we haven't.
  38. Feb 9, 2018

    RooneyLegend Full Member

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    He's been dire defensively this season in every respect, no shame in saying it.
  39. Feb 9, 2018

    Walters_19_MuFc Full Member

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    Mourinho calling Pogba a box to box midfielder isn't wrong. Not sure many would disagree. However, the requirements of a box to box midfielder in a midfield two is different to that of a midfield three.

    Pogba, in a three, can get forward more, knowing he has another two midfielders covering, and vice versa. However, in a 4231, if Pobga goes forward, we get exposed. Not sure how Mourinho can't see this.
  40. Feb 9, 2018

    hellohello Full Member

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    I guess, my view is that Pogba is a midfield player with some of the most exciting strengths in world football, but with obvious weaknesses that can be exploited. If he irons out those weaknesses there's nothing stopping him becoming the best midfielder in the world, but it's not a given that he will. There are some class players such as Özil for Arsenal who are incredibly good when things go well, but somehow can go missing when things don't go so well, - and Pogba should be careful he doesn't become one of those players. Time will tell,