Discussion in 'Classic Threads & Posts' started by Suedesi, Nov 26, 2001.
Just a yes or no would do.
yes, but so do most italian clubs
i remember liverpool being the worst, was it john barnes who was the first black player?
Shamefully I think we were much worse that Liverpool.
Re: Lazio I agree with Jens.
but merseyside was bad altogether, everton didnt have a black player until the 90s i think and im sure tranmere were just as bad.
Racism is a problem common to the whole world. Football fans reflect the mixture of people in the real life. As there is a little minority of people with racist ideas in every country, so there are few racists in every stadium.
Great minds and all that, eh JSV?
While we can agree that in a club you can find supporters (better,assholes) who think that a black player or a jew one is different from a white one, the worst thing to believe is that ALL fans of that club are racists.
And this is the same in Italy, in England or in Germany.
If you picture Lazio's fans as racist, I feel insulted, since most of us are not racist. I would say, ALL of us, except a few lunatics.
I feel offended when all this rubbish went out again when Lazio won the match Vs. Juventus, and when a Juventus fan in the forum (Suedesi) used this subject to put shame on Lazio, insulting at the same time Italians in a racist way, just because he didn't enjoy Liverani's goal (re."Lazio 1-juve nothing..")and our victory.
Talk about a football match, and try to forget your bad feelings towards Lazio, my friend.
This thread had to be named "is there a racist problem in nowadays football?". That's soccer to you, Suedesi.
And stop offending people, even if you do that in Italian, so that others won't be able to understand the filthy things you write...
Btw, Liverani is a black player, and needeless to say, saturday everybody at the Olimpico was happy to see him playing for Lazio.
Although i support Roma, i think the Problem is not with Lazio only, 2 years ago when United travelled to Fiorentina, Cole & yorke were the subject of racist comments by the home fans.
it is noticable how liverpool fans tongues are for once cusperous,
they have been well known for their racist past and they are also well known in manchester for singing, laughing and cheering about united players dying in a plane crash for years.
we are often told why united fans are disliked, sometimes i wish it was known why united really dislike liverpool!
Singling out Lazio and all Lazio fans is a prejudicial as the views you may wish to accuse them of harbouring. It is an Italy wide problem which Lazio have at least done something to address as Percy has pointed out numerous times.
Racism is in fact a global problem and only changes from country to country in the way in which it manifests itself. On a purely European level most countries have the same hardcore loony fringe somewhere in their population, usually drawn from poor and disadvantaged backgrounds but lead by one or two truly bigoted mouthpieces. The degree to which these loons gain a voice in everyday life is generally driven by the economic climate and the number of immigrants permitted to live within that country.
Italy as a country which many Arabic, African and eastern European countries see as an easy entry point to the goldmnine of Europe has a large number of immigrants both legal and illegal and has suffered greater financial hardships in the last 10 to 15 years than many of its European counterparts which has led to increasingly vociferous right wing politicians finding success at the polls and an increase in public demonstrations of racial intolerance. France and Germany have had similar problems albeit much lower key whilst Britain has remained somewhat aloof from it all, thanks in the main part to the isolationist immigration policies adopted under Thatcher and reinforced by successive governments.
As a student in France, I had a lot of good friends from Morrocco, Algeria and Central Africa who were also studying and I was horrified to hear some of their tales of racism throughout Europe even down to one guy being stabbed in Florence. Curiously, all of these guys were of the opinion that Britain was the most racist European country however, when challenged on this view they generally opined that the UK was racist at an institutional level (immigration, police and education in particular) whereas they admitted that Italy, then France were worse on a personal level (face to face abuse and possible violence).
It is the latter trends in the public domain which we are referring to in football and all clubs have attempted to eliminate this element from their support but that is difficult to achieve if the views are openly held amongst a proportion of the populace.
The only way to stamp on it is at a personal level, drop any prejudicial beliefs you may hold, and to address anyone expounding prejudiced views with reasoned argument which allows them to reflect on their views and change as they see fit. In the words of the Specials "If you have a racist friend, now is the time, now is the time. For your friendship to end. Be it your sister, be it your brother, be it your mother or your father or your lover".
I'm English. Born in the US, grew up in Europe (England, Italy, Greece, Hungary) and I've spent most recent years back in the US.
I wanted to thank WeasteDevil for the very interesting words, which I fully agree with.
Maybe after the result of this "poll" somebody would reconsider his role on this forum, having annoyed a community of fans over and over with his distorted and biased views of the problem.
I have singled out Lazio, because of all the clubs in Europe, Lazio fans are easily the most racist, anti-Semitic, pro-fascist, and despicable of the bunch. I contend that the club is responsible for any racist, antisemitic and pro-fascist activities that take place within the football grounds. Furthermore, the football authorities have only paid lip service to this problem, and I'm appalled by the hypocrisy that characterizes Italian football.
First, Lazio has historically had connections with the brownshirts' end of the political spectrum. Mussolini adored the team, frequently appearing in the stands. The team's logo, a strident-looking eagle, looks as if it could have been ripped off of one of Mussolini's caps. And with its north Rome fan base, Lazio attracted the conservative shopkeepers and bumpkins who constituted fascism's rank and file. The tradition is not lost, as Lazio has kept links with the extreme right faction of the Alleanza Nazionale - the former fascist-turned-conservative party which now commands around 35 per cent of the vote in Rome elections. Alleanza treated the team's stadium as their recruiting grounds, and in the '80s, the ultras' politics acquired a significant racist, xenophobic bent.
During the previous two seasons, police tied Lazio's ultras to several acts of domestic terrorism. One planted a bomb at a museum dedicated to Italy's World War II resistance. Rome police also defused a Lazio bomb at a theater showing a documentary on Adolf Eichmann. On other occasions, Lazio fans have desecrated Jewish cemeteries and beaten players from opposing teams. Even by the appalling standards of Italian football, Lazio fans are object lessons in amorality.
Remarkably, Lazio reflects its fans' sentiments. Unlike Roma or almost every other team in the Series A, Lazio's roster is devoid of black players until this year when they bought Liverani, a half black player. He was greeted with "AS Roma nigger" graffiti, and whistled at together with Thuram and Davids during Lazio-Juve.
Dutchman Aron Winter, the other black player to have played for Lazio, quickly left after the team's fans hounded him with chants of "nigger Jew" (ironically his name was Aron Mohammed Winter). Sinisa Mihajlovic, unabashedly trumpeted his devotion to Slobodan Milosevic and his friendship with the Serbian paramilitary leader Arkan, whose band of thugs raped and pillaged their way across Bosnia. When Arkan was killed, Mihajlovic placed a wistful memorial notice in a Belgrade daily. Sure enough some Lazio fans unfurled a banner "Onore Alla Tigre Arkan" (Honour to Tiger Arkan) together with Celtic crosses and swastikas.
At last season's Rome derby, the notorious supporters group - the Irriducibili Ultras - unfurled a 50-metre banner around Lazio's Curva Nord section of the stadium. It read: 'Auschwitz is your town, the ovens are your houses.'
For a time, the embarrassment of Lazio could be hidden. The team spent 11 years in lower divisions and then wallowed in the middle of the Italian table. But in the late '90s it emerged as a European powerhouse, winning the UEFA Cup and lo scudetto. Lazio's rise has come at the expense of the league's health, and the club's ethos has infected the entire culture of Italian soccer. Some of Italy's best prospects, including Patrick Vieira, have refused joining Serie A. Others, like the magnificent Cafu, have bemoaned the racism and openly considered leaving Italy behind. Even Lazio's President Sergio Cragnotti talks about his club in tones of disgust, calling its fans "imbeciles," and frequently threatens resignation.
Which brings me to my second point: Cragnotti and most of the footballing authorities are insincere. For how can a relatively small number of thugs, around 4,000, be so extremly vocal in Olimpico? Can't the stadium security bust some heads, haul the cretins out, make some arrests, and, in general, quell the conduct? Sure it can!
Considering the thugs have a ready-made audience in the Stadio Olimpico, with photographers and television cameras able to capture its message and spread it around Italy, cracking down is even more urgent and pressing. Lazio should be incisive. They have the right to refuse entry to anyone they don't like. They have the right to confiscate any racist, anti-semitic and vitriolic banners, as well as arrest the propagators of such behavior. They have the ability to hire some buff security and handle such things. In short, they have the ability to stop the Ultras running the show.
The fact that they don't speaks volumes.
The League can also crack some heads. They can make it very expensive for Lazio to operate. They can pressure with fines, home ground bans, point deductions etc. Instead of taking some tough measures, they've chosen to have players wear a "Stop the Violence" t-shirt. As soon as the foto is taken, and the shirt is taken off the violence on and off the pitch resumes. If this is not hypocrisy, I don't know what is.
Fact is there are many different things that can be done. Instituting Stewards to police the stadium would be very beneficial to the clubs. While police officers can only eject individuals from grounds if they are breaking the law, Stewards can follow a particular club's agenda and eject people for breaking club and ground rules.
Closed-circuit Television which is now present in almost every Premier ground would be also very effective in detering violence, gathering intelligence and monitoring the efficacy of crowd control.
The Government can also step down and introduce something like the Football Licensing Authority which is responsible for awarding licences to premises that admit spectators to watch football matches. Though gov't-funded, it retains an independent function and has considerable powers. Not least, it has the capacity to close a stadium.
Corruption, violence, drug scandals, fake passports... this is the symptom of the once dubbed "best championship in the world". Fact is that the Italian teams which contended every UEFA cup final from 1988 until 1999 and won 4 CL in the same period have failed to make it past the QF in any European tournament for the last 2 yrs. Maybe it's just another "coincidence". I somehow doubt it.
when you copy and paste, remember to quote the authors:
<a href="http://slate.msn.com/?id=115070" target="_blank">http://slate.msn.com/?id=115070</a>
needless to say, Mr.Foer has been sued for the inaccuracy and lies of this article.
The eagle is on our jerseys since 1902.
You should be well aware that Mussolini started to rule in 1922.
The Roman Empire sported eagles more than 2000 years ago. U.S.A. have an eagle, too...
Oh, by the way, Mussolini was the one who founded AS Roma in 1927. Do you think that a Lazio's fan would do that? C'mon!
But I think the only problem you really have is
Lazio 1- Juve 0.
Be honest, man...
I wish also to thank all the forum for the clear view on the subject. We all know it's a problem, and you shouldn't deal with real problems in this way, even if you are Suedesi...
kindly allow me to disagree...
<a href="http://www.koptalk.org.uk/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=020776&p=2" target="_blank">http://www.koptalk.org.uk/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=020776&p=2</a>
for those in the forum who can see this...
Suedesi kicked out of KopTalk, being accused to be a racist under the nickname of Juventino...
I like Sue Daisy. Nice name.
Separate names with a comma.