Poppies and remembrance at football matches

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by RW2, Oct 30, 2018.

  1. Oct 30, 2018
    #1

    RW2 Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2014
    Messages:
    1,264
    Supports:
    Eintracht Frankfurt
    It's that time of year again as Remembrance Sunday approaches where those who fought and died in the two world wars and other conflicts are remembered.

    It is especially poignant this year as 2018 is 100 years since the end of the first world war.

    Everyone who wishes to remember and pay their respects usually wears a poppy privately.

    Football, though, appears to be the one sport in the UK (primarily England) where this is now normal that players wear poppies on their jerseys. Over the weekend 'The Last Post' was played around grounds.

    Whilst I believe it is right that those who died are remembered, I wonder if it is entirely appropriate at football matches and for PL players from countries who might have been invaded by the UK in the past. We've all seen the stick that James McClean gets for expressing his wish not to wear a poppy, of which he is entirely right as the poppy is a symbol which represents oppression from the part of NI where he is from (Derry).

    Why is it football that seems to engage, rightly or wrongly, in acts of military remembrance? Why not other sports?

    For many years there was never any recognition at matches in England. . . Now, routinely, soldiers present the Premier League title to the champions each May in what I would call the militarisation of football.

    Again I'm not saying this is wrong, but England seems to be the only country engaging annually in such remembrance.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2018
  2. Oct 30, 2018
    #2

    Needham Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2013
    Messages:
    8,772
    :lol::lol:
  3. Oct 30, 2018
    #3

    Kentonio Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2013
    Messages:
    9,034
    Location:
    Stamford Bridge
    I dont like it. Remembrance should be private and personal, otherwise it has no meaning. Shaming people into wearing a remembrance symbol is particularly noxious.
  4. Oct 30, 2018
    #4

    Starkie_1 Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2007
    Messages:
    2,671
    Location:
    Failing a Jib anywhere, anyhow
    A well thought out response.

    Why’s he wrong? It is a personal preference. I don’t wear a poppy but it doesn’t mean I’m being disrespectful.
  5. Oct 30, 2018
    #5

    Needham Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2013
    Messages:
    8,772
    He quite plainly believes it's wrong, the arguments contained in his post make that obvious. Nothing the matter with that. But why keep saying, "I'm not saying this is wrong"?
  6. Oct 30, 2018
    #6

    RW2 Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2014
    Messages:
    1,264
    Supports:
    Eintracht Frankfurt
    Mandatory poppies on jerseys are one thing . . . Now this is being extended to playing the bugle before matches.

    It sort of reinforces the "two world wars and one World Cup" loutish culture of England football fans when abroad.

    I'm also just curious where this is coming from. Are politicians, in some way, hijacking "the people's sport"?
  7. Oct 30, 2018
    #7

    Catch New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2017
    Messages:
    19
    im the manager of an u13 lads team, and have got the same patches the prem teams use for their kit. So the lads can have the poppies on their kit for the match on remembrance sunday. i always ask the parents if they are ok with there kids wearing them. if any say no, then its ok with me. So far all parents have said its an excellent idea and the boys love the idea too.
    You should not be forced into wearing them in a daily mail style crusade. For many the poppy represents remember all that have fallen, if someone doesnt share that view, for what ever reason, ...then they shouldnt be forced to bow to the will of others.
  8. Oct 30, 2018
    #8

    RedNed77 Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2014
    Messages:
    1,136
    Location:
    What's it to you???
    I think an important distinction to make is that we are remembering people who gave their actual lives for other peoples often stupid courses of action. Nobody is wearing a poppy for Mountbatten, Thatcher or Fieldmarshall Hague, or any of the politicians who decided it would be a good idea to invade somebody else's country or oppress them in some way. Plenty of people died trying to liberate NI from the British. If McClean has such an issue with it, why not just co-opt the remembrance to include the fallen who represent him? We (English) don't have a monopoly on needless death or people who have made the ultimate sacrifice.
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2018
  9. Oct 30, 2018
    #9

    Lookatu New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2018
    Messages:
    20
    Location:
    Dubland
    Granted he mastered the art of being both Scottish and from Derry at the same time.
  10. Oct 30, 2018
    #10

    RW2 Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2014
    Messages:
    1,264
    Supports:
    Eintracht Frankfurt
    I did, of course, mean James McClean. . . How did I make that mistake?

    :mad:
  11. Oct 30, 2018
    #11

    Kag Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2013
    Messages:
    14,202
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Politics and sport are intertwined. They have been since the inception of amateur sport. Lots of people miss this point when they say that sport shouldn’t be politicised. Well, it is. Always has been and always will be.

    In the case of McClean and that tedious debate, Stoke City have handled it sensibly. McClean has every right not to wear the poppy. Those who choose to wear it have that very same right.

    It’s not difficult.
  12. Oct 30, 2018
    #12

    Lookatu New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2018
    Messages:
    20
    Location:
    Dubland
    In fairness there is every chance McCarthy doesn't like them either, if he is playing football somewhere in an alternate universe fulfilling that potential he had
  13. Oct 30, 2018
    #13

    Thunderhead Full Member

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2016
    Messages:
    1,720
    Supports:
    City
    Agree 100%
  14. Oct 30, 2018
    #14

    Adisa likes to take afvanadva wothowi doubt Scouse Lover

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2014
    Messages:
    29,132
    Location:
    Birmingham
    People care too much about these things.
  15. Oct 30, 2018
    #15

    RW2 Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2014
    Messages:
    1,264
    Supports:
    Eintracht Frankfurt
    I'd say that there are a heck of a lot of players who don't want to wear a poppy but, for the sake of a couple of matches, they're not prepared to go through the sh1t that McClean has had to put up with. . . so they put up and shut up.
  16. Oct 30, 2018
    #16

    tedketterman New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2017
    Messages:
    386
    Britain gets worse every day because people are too easily offended on behalf of others.

    It should go the other way. Everyone in this country on that day should have to wear a poppy, regardless of their nationality or political leanings. Otherwise it's off to the camp with them.
  17. Oct 30, 2018
    #17

    Lay Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2013
    Messages:
    7,737
    Location:
    England
    :lol:
  18. Oct 30, 2018
    #18

    SquishyMcSquish Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2018
    Messages:
    1,732
    Supports:
    Tottenham
    That's nice, they can piss off then.

    The poppy is about remembering everyday men who fought and died for what they believed in, most notably in both world wars. It's not a 'symbol of oppression' (????) because it's about remembering people who died, not celebrating conquest.

    Also, how the feck is a soldier presenting a trophy militarising football? Are the players being conscripted? Are they taking to the field with machine guns? It's just an act of respect to people who serve in the armed forces. You might not think they deserve such respect, but a lot of people do. Lots of young footballers in both world wars went off to fight and many died, there is a connection.

    Why on earth would anybody have a problem with this? They're not booming out Rule Britannia and ordering a Hell March. The Last Post is about commemorating war dead, do you have an issue with honouring people who died?
  19. Oct 30, 2018
    #19

    Mrs Smoker Full Member Scouse Lover

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2011
    Messages:
    21,412
    Location:
    In garden with Maurice
    Supports:
    Panthère du Ndé
    Hear hear.
  20. Oct 30, 2018
    #20

    Kag Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2013
    Messages:
    14,202
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Lots of people don’t really care either way, which is fine. I’m one of them. I feel nothing when buying one. Nothing when wearing one. I imagine lots of young footballers feel the same way. I’ve been involved in all manner of ‘silences’ but, again, only really because it’s the socially acceptable thing to do. You’re probably right in saying there is a ‘put up and shut up’ element to it. But the more probable reality is that few of them are arsed either way.

    McClean feels very strongly that he shouldn’t wear one, which is his prerogative. Likewise the people that feel an emotional attachment to the poppy.
  21. Oct 30, 2018
    #21

    SquishyMcSquish Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2018
    Messages:
    1,732
    Supports:
    Tottenham
    Pretty much. Nobody should be forced to do anything, but the idea that everybody should have to stop because of a few like McClean is insanity.
  22. Oct 30, 2018
    #22

    SquishyMcSquish Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2018
    Messages:
    1,732
    Supports:
    Tottenham
    That has to be satire. Has to be.
  23. Oct 30, 2018
    #23

    RW2 Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2014
    Messages:
    1,264
    Supports:
    Eintracht Frankfurt
    If the UK had any respect for their service men and women they'd be paying them a lot more than £14,300 on entry.

    But, hey, here's a poppy.
  24. Oct 30, 2018
    #24

    Zlatattack Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2017
    Messages:
    2,943
    Don't really mind it, as long as it's not pushed onto others in a Daily Mail kind of way.
  25. Oct 30, 2018
    #25

    RW2 Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2014
    Messages:
    1,264
    Supports:
    Eintracht Frankfurt
    Perfectly agree.

    If people (players) want to wear poppies than fine. . . .Just stop shoving poppies and bugles down people's throats as it is tinpot dictatorship stuff.
  26. Oct 30, 2018
    #26

    Lookatu New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2018
    Messages:
    20
    Location:
    Dubland
    The idea of forcing people from outside of the UK to wear a poppy reminds me somewhat of a Frankie Boyle Joke which basically is summed up by American movies being made about how sad the Vietnam War made their soldiers feel.
  27. Oct 30, 2018
    #27

    SquishyMcSquish Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2018
    Messages:
    1,732
    Supports:
    Tottenham
    I'm under no illusions that the vast majority in government give the slightest feck about service men or women. They should absolutely be paying them more.

    That has nothing to do with the subject at hand though, which is about commemorating people who lost their lives. You can do both.
  28. Oct 30, 2018
    #28

    jeff_goldblum Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2011
    Messages:
    2,323
    Location:
    Durham
    Obsequious treatment of the military is expected in British society and tabloid culture has made poppy wearing almost mandatory for anyone in the public eye. I don't think it has a place in football in our day and age, but it's nothing new. We have a number of Kop stands (named after a battle in the Boer war), football culture has always been jingoistic and PR folks at clubs have always been keen to prove their pro-military credentials. As far as sport goes football is the most representative of normal attitudes in the UK so it would take a huge cultural shift nationally for that to change, any conscious attempt from clubs or the FA to distance themselves from the military associations would face unprecedented backlash.
  29. Oct 30, 2018
    #29

    SquishyMcSquish Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2018
    Messages:
    1,732
    Supports:
    Tottenham
    Please do elaborate on how a tune and symbol which are about honouring war dead is in any way related to dictatorships.

    Apart from you know, the fact that many of those they are commemorating actually died fighting against dictatorships.
  30. Oct 30, 2018
    #30

    RW2 Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2014
    Messages:
    1,264
    Supports:
    Eintracht Frankfurt
    True. . . there was once a time very recently when this didn't all occur. There was no wearing of poppies on shirts, certainly no bugles. . . I'm not even sure there was a minute's silence each November.

    About 20 years ago perhaps?

    Now it's going too far in my opinion.
  31. Oct 30, 2018
    #31

    SquishyMcSquish Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2018
    Messages:
    1,732
    Supports:
    Tottenham
    Does it really impact your viewing experience when a bugle tune is played? In what way is this going too far? I'm interested to know why people showing respect for people who died has you so rattled. Honouring bravery and sacrifice has long been a part of most cultures.

    Do you hate/mistrust the military as an institution?
  32. Oct 30, 2018
    #32

    marukomu The Gatekeeper

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    19,196
    Location:
    Your mum's knickers drawer.
    I'll be having my usual wank. The wife has some cute knickers with poppies on them.
  33. Oct 30, 2018
    #33

    RW2 Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2014
    Messages:
    1,264
    Supports:
    Eintracht Frankfurt
    The wearing of the poppy symbolises primarily those who died in the two world wars but it also remembers those who died in service of UK forces in countries where very serious atrocities were carried out in the name of the UK.
  34. Oct 30, 2018
    #34

    spontaneus1 Hamster, damn!

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2012
    Messages:
    2,411
    Location:
    In Hiding
    Anyone that wants to wear a poppy should wear one, and equally those that decide they don't want to shouldn't be subject to abuse because of their choice, sadly we live in a society where something as simple as that isn't even possible
  35. Oct 30, 2018
    #35

    Cloud7 Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2016
    Messages:
    2,088
    Pics or it didn’t happen.
  36. Oct 30, 2018
    #36

    SquishyMcSquish Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2018
    Messages:
    1,732
    Supports:
    Tottenham
    It symbolises the soldiers who died in those conflicts, not the poor decisions made by the government. The military follows orders.

    It's just about honouring war dead, both those who died senselessly and those who died fighting for a genuine cause. The vast majority of those serving in war don't have a choice in where they're sent, they don't have the luxury of only fighting just battles.
  37. Oct 30, 2018
    #37

    RW2 Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2014
    Messages:
    1,264
    Supports:
    Eintracht Frankfurt
    People would be offended (and possibly outraged) if the Bundesliga played bugles or had some commemorative stamp on jerseys to recognise their war dead and others.

    It doesn't belong in football and "they were only following orders" is a straw man argument.

    The politicians and those in power are hijacking football to manipulate the masses. Even the Americans don't do this to the same extent.
  38. Oct 30, 2018
    #38

    Classical Mechanic Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2014
    Messages:
    19,255
    I'm all for individual freedom so believe wearing one should be a choice.

    That said, this is nothing more than a troll thread by an anti-English bigot.
  39. Oct 30, 2018
    #39

    SquishyMcSquish Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2018
    Messages:
    1,732
    Supports:
    Tottenham
    They would? I wouldn't care less. If they were throwing about Swastikas I might have an issue.

    Manipulate the masses in what way? 'Oh hey we have this sneaky plan to make people honour millions of people who died, mwahahaha'.

    You're making the U.K seem like an evil totalitarian regime forcing people to sieg heil on their way through the stadium gates. There's a silence and a tune played which is about remembering the fallen. Your comparisons to dictatorships are utterly nonsensical and you're making far too big a deal out of what is just a lot of people deciding that they want to show healthy respect for people who died.

    Like others have said in the thread, the only time it goes too far is when people are forced to do it. Nobody should be made to feel guilty if they don't want to take part. It is 100% a personal choice, something which soldiers in the Second World War died to preserve.
  40. Oct 30, 2018
    #40

    ivaldo Mediocre Horse Whisperer, s'up wid chew?

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2012
    Messages:
    18,817
    Agreed. "Opting out," is a perfectly acceptable stance, though I don't agree with the motives of McClean and others.