Poppies and remembrance at football matches

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by RW2, Oct 30, 2018.

  1. Nov 8, 2018 at 08:49

    Rooney24 Full Member

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    Except that the Royal British Legion disagree with you on that. And that it does in fact represent that. This from their website:

    Therefore that being the case it is completely and totally understandable why people like McClean, Matic and others that will surely follow do not want to wear the poppy.
  2. Nov 8, 2018 at 09:05

    ivaldo Mediocre Horse Whisperer, s'up wid chew?

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    That isn't what it is says though, is it? Representing conflict, and appreciating and acknowledging the sacrifices of servicemen and women is not the same thing.
  3. Nov 8, 2018 at 09:56

    SquishyMcSquish Full Member

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    The Irish potato famine was not 'genocide'.

    There was no aim for the extermination of the Irish people, which is what genocide is.

    Certainly the British government didn't view the Irish with much importance and their response to the crisis was disgraceful, but it wasn't genocide. The British government didn't engineer a famine to kill the Irish, they simply adopted a policy of neglect because they didn't view it as financially beneficial to give proper aid.
  4. Nov 8, 2018 at 10:12

    Rooney24 Full Member

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    You are reaching now.

    If we can agree that it mentions all conflicts (which it does), why would it be expected that McClean, Matic and others should appreciate and acknowledge those people?

    Sorry to be blunt about this but for them the "sacrafices" you mention are not viewed as such by them.

    In McCleans case Im sure he views them very much as an occupying force. Seems pretty logical to me that he wouldnt want to pay tribute to that.

    Its akin to asking the Palestinians in the Gaza strip to pay tribute to the Israeli soliders once a year.
  5. Nov 8, 2018 at 10:42

    ivaldo Mediocre Horse Whisperer, s'up wid chew?

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    Im not reaching at all. Its been my base point all along. It is not in support of the conflict, it's in support of those effected by those conflicts, and honouring those that have sacrificed so much in those conflicts. It's clear here that you, like others, are actively conflating the two points.

    You seem to be blurring the line between soliders who serve, and those who dictate how they serve. These people aren't the decision makers.

    Would be a fine point if I was at any point suggesting he pays tribute. Which I'm not. So no, it's absolutely nothing like that.
  6. Nov 8, 2018 at 10:47

    stevoc Full Member

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    So you would agree it represents and supports all those who have served in the British Military in every conflict since WW1 until present day?
  7. Nov 8, 2018 at 10:49

    Reapersoul20 Can Anderson score? No.

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    The jingoism a load of brits engage in over this load of shit is amazing.

    And expected.

    Lots of gowls in Britain, to be fair.
  8. Nov 8, 2018 at 11:22

    ivaldo Mediocre Horse Whisperer, s'up wid chew?

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    To an extent. It doesn't knowingly support those, for example, who commit war crimes.
  9. Nov 8, 2018 at 12:03

    stevoc Full Member

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    No it represents and supports them all mate, knowingly or not. It's not the British Legions role to investigate and decide who committed murder or unlawful killings. There are still atrocities being investigated with enquiries in the near future lets remember. Taking that into consideration then people have every right to not want to actively support the appeal they know what it is and what it does and they are not confused or misguided in doing so.

    People need to respect not only the decision of others to not wear one but also respect their reasons.
  10. Nov 8, 2018 at 12:22

    ivaldo Mediocre Horse Whisperer, s'up wid chew?

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    No it isn’t. Inevitably and invariably, there will always be some element of misplaced charity, regardless of whether it’s the BL, or Oxfam, or a local shelter. Again, as this needs to be stressed, they support conflict in no way, and are themselves an advocate for peace. They do not knowingly support anyone involved in any sort of war crime, no matter how keen you are to conflate the two.

    They certainly don't need to agree with them, and have every right to question it if they beleive it to be misguided. You can respect someones decision while still disagreeing with it. It's a two way street, pal.
  11. Nov 8, 2018 at 12:58

    Rooney24 Full Member

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    Exactly. It represents them all.

    You would be hard pushed to find anyone who would say what happened on Bloody Sunday wasnt a war crime. Cameron even addressed it in Parliament with a full apology and called it unjustified and unjustifiable.

    Are the soldiers responsible or on duty that day not supported by the BL in the poppy appeal? I wouldnt have thought so.
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018 at 13:21
  12. Nov 8, 2018 at 13:14

    JK-27 Full Member

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    Wearing a poppy should be a private, personal choice. Unfortunately it has become politicised, further driving unnecessary division when it was designed to bring people together.
  13. Nov 8, 2018 at 13:19

    Makeitso New Member

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    Wearing one should be voluntary - Nobody should be hounded if they don't want to wear it.
  14. Nov 8, 2018 at 13:28

    stevoc Full Member

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    I'm not conflating anything mate, you are the one who keeps saying that not me. No where have i said the poppy appeal or the British Legion represents or supports war or conflict. What it does do though by the British Legions own admission, your admission and others is represent and support all the soldiers/military personnel from every British Conflict from WW1 to present day, knowingly or not.

    That's fact mate and the truth is you and i'm sure the British legion itself has no idea if they have supported people in the past, present or future who have been found to have committed atrocities. Or will in the future be found to have taken part in war crimes or unlawful killings. They will have no idea and possibly no inclination to find out if they have or are currently supporting people involved in Bloody Sunday and other similar incidents.
  15. Nov 8, 2018 at 13:38

    ivaldo Mediocre Horse Whisperer, s'up wid chew?

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    Nor do you, or Mcclean either. So on that basis, because there's a very small chance that the BL might have unknowingly supported someone who committed a war crime, it's reason enough to not support the charity. I take it you show no support for any charity then unless they make exhaustive efforts to do background checks on everyone they help?
  16. Nov 8, 2018 at 13:51

    Josep Dowling Full Member

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    Exactly, spot on. Lets not forget the only reason poppies were put on football shirts was to sell them in auctions and raise money for charity, that was the original purpose for it. There was no political reason for including them on a shirt.

    I can fully understand why anyone would not wear one. The reason McClean gets so much flak is because he goes out of his way to rub people up the wrong way, and his reasons are for events that happened before he even born.
  17. Nov 8, 2018 at 13:51

    EireRed_GS New Member

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    good post..

    but the highlighted is definitely where it gets muddy for some people.

    Personally any problem i would have with it would be this; (& im pretty sure this where McClean comes from aswell) -

    I fully respect anyone that wishes to honour their dead and people that have fought for their country, its an honourable thing really, for anyone of any background/culture. But don't expect everyone to have the same viewpoints as you, as everyone and different countries have developed with very different experiences.

    For me personally, being from Derry, wearing something that is a tribute to veterans (of Northern Ireland's conflict) is, to be honest, an a bit of an insult to everyone i know back home who's lives/ communities & families have in any way been affected by the actions of certain troops/veterans (including my own family) .. Many of these veterans who are still sitting pretty at home today with no action taken against them for the things they've done. Its just something i wouldn't feel right doing. As i mentioned before its not something ive ever made a big deal over, its just the way it is.

    Im never going to go out to intentionally disrespect or offend anyone, but im not going to abandon my viewpoint or ignore the past to keep a few people happy.

    If it was solely about remember the victims of WW1&2, that would be fine with everyone, as people from most places in Europe left for that and never came back.. Everyone would be wearing them. But unfortunately its not, anymore as mentioned above. And as others have said, theres plenty people use it for their own politcal purposes these days
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018 at 14:44
  18. Nov 8, 2018 at 14:05

    stevoc Full Member

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    I don't know 100% but i know theres a very, very good chance they have or are still doing so. We're not talking about 1 or 2 people here mate.

    Besides it's not just the financial side, they also represent them symbolically rightly or wrongly.

    If they're closely linked to the British Military then no. I don't support any charities that are even remotely likely to aid war criminals.
  19. Nov 8, 2018 at 14:08

    stevoc Full Member

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    That doesn't matter though does it?
  20. Nov 8, 2018 at 14:15

    ivaldo Mediocre Horse Whisperer, s'up wid chew?

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    On the balance of probability every major charitable organization would have in some way I'm afraid. Even you must see how tenuous a link this is becoming in order to oppose the support of a wholly honest and good natured organisation.

    Does it represent them? You think you'll find many supporters of the BL, or BL themselves, support those war crimes?
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018 at 14:59
  21. Nov 8, 2018 at 14:17

    Rooney24 Full Member

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    And?
  22. Nov 8, 2018 at 15:19

    SquishyMcSquish Full Member

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    Right, so if you had 10,000 injured British soldiers who would die without aid, but 20 of them had committed war crimes, you would completely refuse to support them?

    War criminals make up a small % of those being helped, and overwhelmingly the BL does great work for men who badly need it. A small minority of those they help have committed crimes but this isn't the intention but just an unavoidable consequence.

    People that go 'Yeah, I'd be fine if it was WW2/WW1 dead but not those war criminals who served in Ireland!' are being ridiculously naive. A small minority of British soldiers in EVERY CONFLICT EVER have committed war crimes, including during the world wars. There hasn't been a war in the history of mankind which was 100% just, in WW2 the British navy attacked and killed shipwrecked German sailors, the British army looted & pillaged in France and attempted rape by British soldiers was reported in Italy.


    You will always get disgusting acts committed during war, but the BL doesn't endorse these charities it merely aims to help those who are suffering. People are absolutely free to decide whether they want to take part, but the charity is a good one which does fantastic work.
  23. Nov 8, 2018 at 15:22

    shamans Hoser

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    Just want to see Scholes hit a volley.
    90 percent of the people who wear it weren't born for the events either
  24. Nov 8, 2018 at 15:52

    EireRed_GS New Member

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    I get what your saying about the percentage etc, & I understand all conflict is never just, but when you are brought up only knowing and experiencing the negative things about the army like the majority of people in ireland, your perspective changes a little. trust me. In my personal experience as a kid the percentage was the other way around, the odd one was polite and friendly, whilst most pointed guns, intimidated, beat people up, called us names and laughed. Thats just what alot grew up to experience. But I try not to let it taint my view too much these days as i now know plenty of people that have served in army/navy, and most of them couldnt be any nicer.

    Lets say for instance though I bow to the pressure and decide to wear one. I go to meet with one of my best friends whos teenage uncle was shot dead on Bloody Sunday by an unknown paratrooper. An incident which ripped apart his family at the time. Do i then give him that story that its only a percentage? No chance. Like i mentioned before that would be an insult to him if i showed up wearing something that is a tribute to the people that done that damage to his family. It just wouldn't be right.

    Its not being naive. Its not being disrespectful to Britain. Its being respectful to people like my friend. Its just a simple choice. Its respectfully declining.
  25. Nov 8, 2018 at 16:50

    SquishyMcSquish Full Member

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    I have no issue with people from Ireland not wanting to wear the poppy, or anybody for that matter .. it's totally a personal choice and nobody should be pressurised in to it. I'm not here enforcing 'poppy fascism' because that would be ridiculous, it takes away the entire point .. it's a free choice to show respect or not.

    I don't view people not wearing poppies as disrespectful to Britain, all I am saying is that the notion that the BL supports war criminals is ridiculous. As a charity it's undeniably a good one which helps a lot of good people, it doesn't represent imperialism, or militarism, or any of that other shite. It's just a charity dedicated to helping ex servicemen and women who are suffering.
  26. Nov 8, 2018 at 17:08

    Moriarty Full Member

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    In a perfect world, the BL shouldn't have to exist in the form it does. The British government, unlike the Americans and the VA system, has always turned its back on its veterans. When Kipling wrote "Tommy," he knew what he was writing about.
  27. Nov 8, 2018 at 17:17

    SquishyMcSquish Full Member

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    I don't disagree, the way the British government treats veterans is disgusting. Like discarded goods after they've served a purpose.

    Unfortunately, that's the way it is and the BL is forced to do what it can.
  28. Nov 8, 2018 at 17:29

    worldinmotion66 Full Member Scouse Lover

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    Reading through this thread I can't help but agree with points from both sides. It's such a shame that something representing hope and unity has become a symbol of politics and division.

    I will wear one, in the respect and gratitude of the brave people that have given their lives to enable my family and I the freedoms that I now enjoy.
  29. Nov 8, 2018 at 18:02

    Josep Dowling Full Member

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    Well personally I don’t understand how you can feel so strongly about something when he wasn’t even born. He referred to the people that died on bloody Sunday as ‘my people’. I don’t get it. I wouldn’t refer to people where I was born as my people.

    He’s got a massive chip on his shoulder. Matic explained his reasons, I get it, he saw first hand the problems caused by British Soldiers. And you know what because he’s a nice, quiet guy no one is on his back.

    The abuse that McClean is getting is certainly out of order and I don’t condone that sort of behaviour but the way he goes out about it, he doesn’t help himself.
  30. Nov 8, 2018 at 19:03

    RW2 Full Member

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    So presumably it's all out mental this weekend. . . poppies, bugles, the works. . .

    What a farce.
  31. Nov 8, 2018 at 19:12

    SquishyMcSquish Full Member

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    Love it, hopefully they make lots of money for a great cause and fingers crossed it'll wind up as many people as possible who somehow get annoyed at people who are dead being remembered.

    Such a 'farce' that people are actually bothered by this. Don't take part if you don't care, this is your right. Don't try and ruin it for the majority who do want to pay respects and do want to contribute. It's a part of the English game and hopefully it always be.
  32. Nov 8, 2018 at 19:29

    Moriarty Full Member

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    For those who don't want to wear the traditional red poppy, you can always wear a white one. They've been around since the 1930s but even they have their detractors.
  33. Nov 8, 2018 at 19:48

    Rooney24 Full Member

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    But you have ignored this point through this thread on a few occasions.

    It hasn't always been part of the English game. Leicester were the first PL team to wear it in 2003. United and Liverpool the last to join in 2010.

    It's something relatively new to the game to be fair and something it survived long enough without. And look at the debate it sparks every single year. It honestly should be kept well well away from football and had it have been none of this nonsense debate would ever have rared it's head. Nor do I think most people would be any the wiser about the history and views of James mcclean or Nemanja Matic.
  34. Nov 8, 2018 at 19:52

    Rooney24 Full Member

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    So logically then you won't understand how people can feel so strongly about wearing the poppy and remembering the dead of the first and second world war since most of us weren't born when those events happened ?
  35. Nov 8, 2018 at 19:54

    SquishyMcSquish Full Member

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    But it is a part of it now .. and a majority embrace it, whilst most who don't are just happy to shrug their shoulders, not take part but accept it. Then you have a small minority who are somehow bothered by people honouring dead British soldiers in England.

    You think it should have been kept away .. sure whatever, you might have an argument. But it was introduced, and has now become part of the game. It's something a lot of people would resist removing (a hell of a lot more than the people who would support getting rid of it) so it's a moot point.

    You don't like it, fine .. but it is here to stay. I'm not a huge fan of poppy fascism and do think people can go OTT with it, but is it really that much of an issue for you? It's clearly important to a lot of people.
  36. Nov 8, 2018 at 20:53

    Eire Red United Full Member

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    Are you still being pedantic about this? The abuse McCleans getting isn’t racist by definition but its basically as bad as racism.
  37. Nov 8, 2018 at 21:00

    stevoc Full Member

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    So Save the Children has as much of a probability of aiding former British soldiers who committed war crimes as a charity that is specifically geared solely towards aiding former British Soldiers?

    Yeah mate i think you need to have a rethink of that theory. You are being deliberately obtuse now.

    I'm sure the vast majority perhaps even all of the people involved in the British Legion are good folk only trying to help others. And wouldn't support or approve of the actions of some of the soldiers their charity represents.

    But that doesn't detract from the fact the British Legion is linked to representing and supporting former military personnel who served in Northern Ireland and other countries who have been involved in atrocities.
  38. Nov 8, 2018 at 21:03

    Eire Red United Full Member

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    Jesus. The bastards literally exported tonnes upon tonnes of food from Ireland, shooting or imprisoning any starving Irish who tried to take the food back. What did they think was going to happen, we’d eat the grass just?
  39. Nov 8, 2018 at 21:10

    stevoc Full Member

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    So every Jewish person born after the 1940's should have no strong feelings about the holocaust either then?
  40. Nov 8, 2018 at 21:17

    cyberman Full Member

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    Bloody Sunday wasn't that long ago. Its his neighbours father's, uncles, brothers and children that died that day.
    You don't think people who grew up around those affected by Hillsborough aren't touched by it all?