Potential Matic Replacements

Discussion in 'Transfer Forum' started by FootyGirl88, Oct 7, 2018.

  1. Nov 5, 2018

    izec Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2013
    Messages:
    15,961
    Location:
    Lucilinburhuc
    Bring Redondo out of retirement, he would do a better job than him
  2. Nov 5, 2018

    Johan07 Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2017
    Messages:
    323
    But it depends very much on the type of football that the team plays. I am in general against comparing players cross teams. Generally. Its very different to be a #6 in Barcelona or City compared to Liverpool for example. And even more compared to a Mourinho team.
    My basic opinion is that Pogba will not be at his best in a defensively oriented team to begin with. But we are, and it showed last year with Pogba, playing in his "favored" left #8 position. He did not get on the ball nearly enough and when he sometimes just had Lukaku in front of him. A waste of talent.
    He was much better when he played deeper with Matic.
    That said Pogba is never a #6 for a Barca or City team, but I would argue that its his best position in our team as we are currently set up.
  3. Nov 5, 2018

    dablem_10 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2015
    Messages:
    26
    Location:
    Hamsik's country
    What happened to Julian Weigl? I remember him 2 years ago thinking he is the future Busquets type of player
  4. Nov 5, 2018

    PGLFC91 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2014
    Messages:
    13
    Neves at Wolves looks a good player but has a Pep signing next summer written all over him.
  5. Nov 5, 2018

    abdo99 Full Member City Lover

    Joined:
    May 26, 2016
    Messages:
    6,155
    I think Pogba struggling as number 8 last year was more because of lack of movement from the attackers mainly Lukaku who doesn't move and Sanchez playing left getting into Pogbas area it was a mess.
    But I remember Everton away we played Martial, Mata and Lingard an interchanging front three and Pogba played one of his best games on the left. It can be effective if we have the right players in the right areas.
    But I agree with you in home games especially we don't need 3 midfielders. Only in the big games.
    I would choose a midfield of Herrera, Fred, Pogba which imo gives us the best balance.
    Either way we lack creators in the team so it's something to address for the future.
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2018
  6. Nov 7, 2018 at 07:54

    Invictus Best Poster 2015 Staff

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2014
    Messages:
    11,639
    Supports:
    Piracy on the High Seas
    Witsel and Delaney are playing quite well for Favre in a double pivot — Weigl hasn't quite been the same since Tuchel's departure and has faced some positional/injury-related issues in recent years. If United want to sign a young player in the mold of Busquets (holding midfielder who's press resistant and good at retaining possession and more cerebral than brutish), we could do worse than this guy, I think...



    Rodri was the breakout young #6 in La Liga last season and is doing quite well back at Atlético, now Roca is emerging as one of the better players at second-placed Espanyol (who also have the second best defensive record from a statistical standpoint). Hope we're monitoring him after missing out on the likes of Rodri and Ruiz (versatile central midfielder who's now at Napoli) in the summer...has a relatively reasonable ~£30 million release clause, too. Spain has quietly produced a handful of good midfield prospects in recent years, and we might be missing a trick by not prioritizing at least one of them — of course, some might not progress further than Illarramendi or worse yet, Romeu, but a couple have the potential to develop into watered down versions of Busquets or peak Martínez over the next 2-3-4 seasons.
  7. Nov 7, 2018 at 09:46

    Ashley R1+O New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2016
    Messages:
    1,780
    Most obvious one that comes to mind. But there is no fun in just blurting out "Kante!" :wenger:
  8. Nov 7, 2018 at 10:35

    Manutd1990 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2016
    Messages:
    51
    Ruben neves, or Allan..
  9. Nov 7, 2018 at 17:10

    Julz10 New Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2016
    Messages:
    3
    Allan from napoli
  10. Nov 8, 2018 at 14:03

    Devil may care Full Member Verified Moaner

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2010
    Messages:
    28,860
    I think you have to look at the composition of the midfield, in Pogba we have a bit of a hybrid AM /CM who creates in the final third and off the wing, if he comes out of the team his most natural replacements are our kinda #10's, Mata and Lingard. We have the worker Bee's in Herrera and Fred, now the jury is out on one and Herrera may leave for free in the summer, but that's a different replacement issue. The piece we miss is the consistent, accurate forward passer who can set the tempo for the team, a one touch and pass kind of CM.

    Now some teams like Barca and City play with more than one but I thiunk we'd likely set up more like the previous Juve midfield where Pogba was in with Pirlo and Vidal or Marchisio, Or Sarri's Napoli or current Chelsea midfield.

    Neves remains by far our best option that is at a team we might be able to convince into selling with vast amounts of cash. Paredes is a riskier option but has the skillset and then there's Rabiot (Free in the summer @bucky @JPRouve ) who isn't as good on the ball as the other 2 but is still a very good player and passer.
  11. Nov 8, 2018 at 14:28

    JPRouve can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2014
    Messages:
    32,260
    Location:
    France
    Neither are better on the ball, in fact Rabiot and Neves are strangely similar.
  12. Nov 8, 2018 at 16:15

    Devil may care Full Member Verified Moaner

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2010
    Messages:
    28,860
    I think Neves is a better passer, but is Rabiot free in the summer?
  13. Nov 8, 2018 at 16:24

    JPRouve can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2014
    Messages:
    32,260
    Location:
    France
    IIRC, he is supposed to imminently sign a new contract otherwise he is free this summer.
  14. Nov 8, 2018 at 16:26

    EireRed_GS New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2018
    Messages:
    61
    Rabiot is on his way from PSG soon. He has looked a decent player.
  15. Nov 8, 2018 at 16:33

    Devil may care Full Member Verified Moaner

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2010
    Messages:
    28,860
    Thanks, just read that Barca are tipped to make a move for him, just thought he could be a good option, especially for free given we also need to spend big on CB ad RW.
  16. Nov 8, 2018 at 20:35

    Demyanenko_square_jaw Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2017
    Messages:
    161
    I don't think Paredes is good enough right now. He's got good vision and through balls, but isn't really a consistent pace setting kind of passer and Zenit always struggle to control midfield. His movement and workrate are often suspect with players like Kuzyaev and Erokhin doing a lot of running for him. He's also a hothead that seems easily antagonised.
  17. Nov 8, 2018 at 21:08

    Bestietom Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2013
    Messages:
    2,018
    Location:
    Ireland
    Weight or Pelegrini.
  18. Nov 8, 2018 at 21:30

    L1nk Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2017
    Messages:
    632
    Can't turn our noses up at Rabiot if he's on a free, he's a quality player and still only 23, you'd imagine other top clubs will be sniffing around him too though. Neves is a must if we can get him. I would take a punt on Weigl still just simply because I imagine his price has dropped a little now and he could probably be gotten for a reasonable fee from Dortmund.
  19. Nov 8, 2018 at 21:46

    cheeky_backheel Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2017
    Messages:
    1,821
    Like the kid but have doubts that trio would offer enough defensive cover
  20. Nov 8, 2018 at 21:56

    R'hllor Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2013
    Messages:
    9,271
    For Matic`s replacement to play, Matic has to leave first and we just got him, already talking about replacing, sound tactic.
  21. Nov 8, 2018 at 22:42

    MaREDcus New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2018
    Messages:
    6
    I would personally go for Rabiot, still fairly young, good height on him (Jose's requirement), position awareness and good on the ball too. Think he's going thru some contract issues, so could potentially get on the cheaper side vs the names stated above.
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018 at 22:49
  22. Nov 8, 2018 at 22:45

    MaREDcus New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2018
    Messages:
    6
    My issue with Weigl is his injuries. Could end up like a Hargreaves aka nightmare!
  23. Nov 9, 2018 at 02:42

    Isotope Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2012
    Messages:
    11,378
    Location:
    InPrivate
    :lol::lol: I wouldn't be surprised.
  24. Nov 9, 2018 at 02:51

    L1nk Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2017
    Messages:
    632
    He could, I don't think he's as much of a crock as Hargreaves, but, when Hargreaves was fit he was pretty good for us I thought. He's still young, it would definitely depend on price I think.
  25. Nov 9, 2018 at 03:33

    cheeky_backheel Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2017
    Messages:
    1,821
    isnt rabiot more a CM than a DM?
  26. Nov 10, 2018 at 15:26

    Walters_19_MuFc Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    15,355
    Location:
    Birmingham
    It all depends on where we want to go and style of play.

    There's two options:

    Deep-lying playmaker (DLP)


    • Sits in front of the defence
    • Creative play-maker from deep
    • Distributes to teammates, near and far
    • Sets the team’s tempo
    • Capable of tackling, though a secondary task
    A perfect example would be Jorginho. Not defensively great, but his ability on the ball allows Chelsea to play from the back and play possession based football. Big reason as to why Pep wanted him.

    Ball winner

    • Sits in front of the defence
    • Wins the ball back with tackles and interceptions
    • Covers teammates when they go forward
    • Harries opposition attackers
    • Physically fit and tenacious

    A perfect example would be Idrissa Gueye. Not great on the ball, but is fantastic at winning the ball. Actually, the last four seasons, he has been in the top 3 at tackles made in the Premier League, and is currently on top this season with 55.

    Personally, as I said before, it depends on the system.

    To me, a DLP is more suited to a 433. It allows them to drop in between the centre backs and start attacks. This means, the two midfielders above the holding midfielder can play higher up and look to play in between the lines, knowing that the DLP has the ability to either find them or find another pass to start play.

    With a ball winner as the single pivot, due to them not possessing the range of passing a DLP would have, it means the two midfielders above have to drop.

    This is the problem I feel we have with Matic. On the ball, whilst his passing isn't poor, it isn't at the required standard of a DLP, i.e. Busquets, Jorginho, Pjanic, etc, which is why you see Pogba dropping so deep for the ball to start play.

    In a 4231, however, you can get away with a ball winner in a double pivot, as long as you have a creative player next to you. For example, Pogba and Kante for France.

    Going forward, i'm not sure whether it's Jose's style, but he should really be looking to go with a DLP. It would also help out our centre backs, who are not particularly great on the ball.

    I would like to see Periera given a run of games there to see how he gets on. Showed promising sides as the single pivot in the last couple of pre seasons. Has a really good passing range and is dynamic.

    If it doesn't quite work out, players I would like to see are:

    Marco Verratti
    Toni Kroos
    Thiago Alcantara


    Pogba Verratti Herrera
  27. Nov 10, 2018 at 16:15

    cheeky_backheel Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2017
    Messages:
    1,821
    What you really need to worry about is the ball winning capability of your midfield. You have to have enough playmaking and ball winners in the midfield trio.

    Busquets and Casemiro are ball winners not DLPs but they are successfully anchoring a midfield trio that builds from the back cos they have Xavi+Iniesta and Kroos+Modric respectively. Jorginho is successful at Chelsea cos he has Kante to deal with the ball winning responsibility.

    Assuming its Pogba and regular CM like Fred, or Pogba in a dual pivot, then then DM needs to be more of a ball winner than a playmaker. What he lacks in playmaking can be made up by Pogba, the other CM and a ball playing CB (see Madrid setup). You can only prioritize a DLP if you have a player like Kante in the trio.

    In my opinion, we should be looking for a great ball winner that is able to cover the LB/RB pushing forward either by dropping into the CB position (Matic type) or has the speed and work rate to cover side to side (Kante type).

    We also need to get a good backup/prospect
  28. Nov 10, 2018 at 16:46

    Walters_19_MuFc Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    15,355
    Location:
    Birmingham
    Hence why I put Herrera in there, instead of Fred. Herrera, like Kante, Gueye, etc, is a fantastic ball winner. When played often, especially under Van Gaal, we saw how effective at pressing high and winning the ball Herrera was.
  29. Nov 10, 2018 at 16:46

    VorZakone What would Kenny G do?

    Joined:
    May 9, 2013
    Messages:
    14,852
    If a ball-winner has priority, then maybe Wilmar Barrios from Boca Juniors is an interesting option.
  30. Nov 10, 2018 at 16:49

    GledTheRed Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2005
    Messages:
    7,388
    Location:
    Twitter thread
    Hd a great WC, Spurs have been sniffing for 15 million apparently.
  31. Nov 10, 2018 at 16:51

    FootyGirl88

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2018
    Messages:
    4,112
    Good post @Walters_19_MuFc for that DLP role we could easily develop Pereira. He fits everything we're looking for, my only concern is his positioning but he can do the rest no problem.

  32. Nov 10, 2018 at 17:34

    Walters_19_MuFc Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    15,355
    Location:
    Birmingham
    Thanks.

    I agree. He had some really good displays there in pre season. Unfortunately, he didn't get run of games going into this season. As soon as Matic was fit, he more or less came straight back in.

    As for positioning, it's only something he'll learn from playing and learning the role - a bit like Carrick.
  33. Nov 10, 2018 at 19:08

    House Mkhitaryan New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2016
    Messages:
    22
    Location:
    Hingham, MA (USA)
    How about Thomas Partey from Atletico?Scored a screamer today. Apparently not playing much and possibly looking to leave in the January window.
  34. Nov 11, 2018 at 02:46

    cheeky_backheel Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2017
    Messages:
    1,821
    He doesnt have the battery to sustain it 2x a week and is only a year younger than Matic. To plan based on him is to have us looking for a new ball winner this summer or a year later at the most.

    Also with the ball winner ahead of the DLP, you need to worry when your LB/RB push forward as the ball winner is more easily bypassed and need that same DLP to cover the space.

    I dont think one should go that route unless you have either an exceptional DLP or exceptional ball winner. we have neither
  35. Nov 11, 2018 at 08:12

    redIndianDevil Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2017
    Messages:
    2,042
    Excellent post.

    The system with the DLP requires pressing when the possession is lost, it helps DLP when the team press high and prevent the opposition making incisive passes. The DLP can win the ball back by intercepting without having to chase opponents and make tackles.

    The system with the ball winner(which is what we play with) doesn't necessarily require pressing higher, as the CMs are already dropping deep to collect the ball and the ball winner can chase and make tackles. The problem with our system is Matic is not a ball winner, he is quite a decent playmaker but he doesn't have the physical attributes or skills needed to play like a ball winner. That's why Matic is struggling as we don't press at all. If we play with a highline and press as a team, Matic would look far better IMO.
  36. Nov 11, 2018 at 23:32

    MyOnlySolskjaer Creator of Player Performance threads

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2014
    Messages:
    12,315
    Location:
    Player Performance Threads
    Starting to think this is our number one priority.
  37. Nov 11, 2018 at 23:58

    Adnan Twitter machine

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2013
    Messages:
    10,334
    Location:
    United Kingdom, England
    We should go all out for Frenkie De Jong. He's the type of talent we need to bring into the club. His close control and dribbling in central areas is exactly what we need to bridge the gap between us and Abu Dhabi..
  38. Nov 12, 2018 at 00:37

    Skills Snitch

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2012
    Messages:
    25,584
    Mourinho needs to be fecked off before that. We shouldn't even think about spending big on another promising young player, while we're still infested by that disease.
  39. Nov 12, 2018 at 00:47

    RooneyLegend Full Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 2013
    Messages:
    7,441
    De Jong is where it's at. Our coach will probably prefer Kondogbia.
  40. Nov 12, 2018 at 01:11

    abdo99 Full Member City Lover

    Joined:
    May 26, 2016
    Messages:
    6,155
    Not whilst Mourinho is still here. He'll be left to warm the bench alongside Fred otherwise.