Quote: "What's happened to the Manchester United I used to love?"

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Randall Flagg, Apr 23, 2012.

  1. Apr 23, 2012
    #81

    Leroy The Red Full Member

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    What are you going on about? How is my argument flawed? That post was not in response to the 4-4 draw, it was in response to spaghettihairs post. And it's quite clear that I'm referring to the whole season not just the draw with Everton (which btw Rooney was much better in) as opposed to his horror displays against Villa in the 4-0 and Wolves in the 5-0. <<<That's me detaching analysing someones performance from the result of the match. It's what people who don't see things in black and white do.
  2. Apr 23, 2012
    #82

    Inigo Montoya Full Member

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    What inspired this thread was a gross overreaction to a draw:rolleyes:

    To even ask what happened to the team I loved is absurd.Yes we can criticise,support whatever but the love for me is in spite of the success or relative failure
  3. Apr 23, 2012
    #83

    Randall Flagg Worst of the best

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    Rooney was excellent away to wolves. Thought he was our best player on the day. I do remember him being sloppy in the opening 3 mins though
  4. Apr 23, 2012
    #84

    Inigo Montoya Full Member

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    It just gets better and better:lol:
  5. Apr 23, 2012
    #85

    Randall Flagg Worst of the best

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    Nope, that conment i quoted was made at half time. Not full time
  6. Apr 23, 2012
    #86

    Leroy The Red Full Member

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    I was just responding to Montoya really, he seems to ignore what goes on in a game and focus solely on the scoreline.

    Not really, the poster of the op has been saying those things for a while now.
  7. Apr 23, 2012
    #87

    Leroy The Red Full Member

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    He was really good in the second half but he was terrible in the first. Horror was a bit harsh I'll hold my hands up to that.
  8. Apr 23, 2012
    #88

    manutddjw Full Member

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    The problem when people look back at previous seasons and the success that came at that time, and then try to compare it with right now, is that they only look at the end result and not the whole campaign. That's where statements like "What happened to the Manchester United I used to love?" come from and look foolish.

    Probably our 2 best seasons under Sir Alex were 98/99 and 07/08. But if you look at those seasons as a whole, both of them had a poor run of results lasting at least 3 games in the league, whereas so far this season, the worse we've done is 2 losses in a row and in those losses (Blackburn and Newcastle) we had an injury crisis.

    All the things that we complain about with this seasons United, like complacency, arrogance and underperforming positions and players etc. Are probably true to some degree, but if we went back to other seasons we'd be able to find instances of the same things, the only difference is nobody would really complain about it now, because that season had something to show for it.
  9. Apr 23, 2012
    #89

    togg Full Member

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    Well....whatever the reasons and disecting that goes on here, the over analysis and scrutiny or whoever is to blame, one thing I know, if city take this title from us this season I will be gutted. No blame, no shame....just gutted. Simple as that......
  10. Apr 23, 2012
    #90

    noodlehair "It's like..."

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    Not going to go through the whole thread but these two posts on the first page came closest to hitting the point I was trying to make.

    It's not so much whether we win things or not. It's the manner with which this team chooses to play. It's just not very Manchester United. There's no energy or spark or desire to put on a show.

    It's got little to do with failure in Europe or whether we win the league or not.

    In 2002 we were ridiculously Manchester United, and yet won nothing.
  11. Apr 23, 2012
    #91

    Twigginater WUM Alert!

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    I think, and the facts will probably back me up here, that this is one of the best United teams in terms of goals and wins that I can remember in a long time. Some of the football has been a joy to watch.

    I will just be gutted if we lose to City. Still in a season that is pretty much a transition period I think, I think we've been very good this year.
  12. Apr 23, 2012
    #92

    Feed Me I'm hungry

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    I agree with the general point you're making Noods - we're a lot more conservative than we used to be. But that has been the case for years now - we've had to adapt to win trophies. I don't think this less gung-ho approach is a bad thing as it's yielded success and it's not as though we've gone 180 and become a defensive outfit.

    But yesterday I was bemoaning the fact that, at 4-2, we were too casual and it bit us on the arse in the end. And this is something that has slipped into the team's collective psyche - we're too casual, not ruthless enough and it's cost us time and again this season.

    I've previously grumbled that we haven't made more of fixtures like Fulham and QPR at home in terms of advancing our goal difference and was ridiculed as a drama queen by a couple of posters. Well, it's highly conceivable that that could be pivotal to the title race in the end and we've lost that particular battle because of a lax approach.

    I don't buy into theories that we've cracked up against Wigan and Everton - I merely saw a team that was plodding along, determined to play the game at the lazy pace that they wanted too. When will the lesson be learned?
  13. Apr 23, 2012
    #93

    kf Full Member

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    It's an old chant, reprised from the Docherty days.. I like it :D
  14. Apr 23, 2012
    #94

    Will Absolute Full Member

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    We're still in good shape. Amazingly so, in fact. But if you ask why we're not consistently playing the sparkling football we used to play a few years ago, you have to consider our activities in the transfer market.

    Since summer 2007 we have bought the following players:

    Anderson ------ £17.5M
    Nani ----------- £17.5M
    Hargreaves----- £18M
    Berbatov -------£30.75M
    Tosic ----------£8M
    Diouf ----------£4.5M
    Manoucho ----- a goat and two chickens
    Valencia -------£18M
    Obertan -------£3M
    Bebe ----------£7.5M
    Smalling -------£10M
    Hernandez -----£6M
    Young ---------£17M
    Jones ---------£18M

    The Tevez loan cost us £10M.

    Total: ca. £180M

    So what have we got to show for the money?

    The team we sent out yesterday, which, Vidic excepted, is probably our current best, featured two of those players - Nani and Valencia, who, ironically enough, both play in the same position. So you might argue that we've spent £180M to get one really good right winger :)

    Of course some of our investments in the future - Hernandez, Jones, Smalling - are likely to eventually pay off, but they don't feature in our current best eleven. As of now, we've spent an awful lot of money without greatly improving the quality of the side.

    We've done a poor of replacing the aging fledglings, and, in particular, Ronaldo and Tevez.

    United have spent a lot, and wasted a lot, in the transfer market - it's a tribute to Fergie's brilliance that we're in position to win our 20th. But the quality of our football has declined, and is likely to decline further unless our young players step up dramatically, or we get our act together in the market. This summer's purchases have to be better.

    Note: I considered only outfield players in the above. If De Gea is included, our total outlay comes to nearly £200M.
  15. Apr 23, 2012
    #95

    Twigginater WUM Alert!

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    I personally think those transfers represent exceptional business, and players like Valencia/Nani/Vidic and Da Gea have been incredible successes, with other players like Smalling/Rafael (who you missed) and Anderson looking good for the future.

    Why include PiG if not Da Gea btw?

    On the players you've listed who haven't done well, we've recouped our money back on low budget buys like Obertan/Diouf/Tosic.

    Very happy with how we've spent the money. Should we have spent more? Maybe.
  16. Apr 23, 2012
    #96

    Cold_Boy Banned

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    TBH I would pick wining by just doing the job instead of entertaining football but no end result every fecking time.
  17. Apr 23, 2012
    #97

    moses control

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    I have no idea either, yet.
    We've been weirdly flat in spots this year but to say we've never put in a similar performance is nonsense. Look at how many games we've drawn and lost in previous campaigns. Remember away games as far back as say ... last year? Shockers, almost all. We're getting better in my book.

    Also the word embarrassment is being used a lot with regard to the team? What's that about? I grew up with nowt but a few FA cups until I was 20, seen some really shit displays and worse players, but have never been embarrassed.
  18. Apr 23, 2012
    #98

    Will Absolute Full Member

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    Kuszczak's inclusion was a mistake. Rafael was a youth purchase - I only considered players who came as adults. Vidic wasn't bought in the last 5 years. The idea was to look at our recent transfer record. A bit early to say that De Gea has been 'an incredible success', don't you think?

    If you're happy, that's fine. I don't think we've gotten 'value' for £200M. That's enough to buy 5 world class players - we got, arguably, one - Nani.
  19. Apr 23, 2012
    #99

    moses control

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    I have no idea either, yet.
    Considering Spurs, Liverpool's, City's and even Villas outlay since then we've won a few titles with that investment ... that's value. What more would have constituted value to you?
  20. Apr 23, 2012

    Will Absolute Full Member

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    See edited post. With the recent exception of City, we're in a different position to the clubs you mention - we can attract the best players, they can't. With an outlay of £200M, I'd expect us to have bought a few.
  21. Apr 23, 2012

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    Deciding that long list of players can be summed up as us signing just "one world class player" is laughable tbh. The majority of them either already have or will at some point in the future made a huge contribution to keeping United as the most succesful club in the country.
  22. Apr 23, 2012

    moses control

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    I have no idea either, yet.
    City and Chelsea have spent more and pay more wages and can attract 'better' players and have won less than half of what we have, combined.

    And we have only bought one world class player? I disagree but that's another thread.

    These players that would make you happy, it's more than possible they would they be at the expense of titles, a team and good squad depth?

    There is an air of impossible to please in some of the 'arguments' in this thread.
  23. Apr 23, 2012

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    You should check out his thoughts on Welbeck.
  24. Apr 23, 2012

    moses control

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    I have no idea either, yet.
    I often hear people complain about United fans and think it's driven by bitterness. But feck me no other team in the land would be top, having scored a feckload of goals with an academy player up front, and still have fans bitching about almost every aspect of the team from signings not being value to the performances being embarrassing, staid and dull. Are we not allowed some space for new signings to gel? There were three young lads brought in this year. Our best defender injured. Our 3 most dynamic central midfielders out for the best part of the season. Other clubs would put up with a lot in those circumstances; our lot can barely stand winning the league.
  25. Apr 23, 2012

    Randall Flagg Worst of the best

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    Just to say my OP was not a dig at you. But I did find your post to be quite a statement. If I was to have a bitch or a moan I would simply quote that guy red rickio or whatever his name is.

    Also I had noticed a fair few other posters shared your concern, so I felt it was a relevant topic to discuss.

    I don't agree with what you said and as Moses as put very well, we have very little to be unhappy with.
  26. Apr 23, 2012

    Will Absolute Full Member

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    I don't think it's an unreasonable observation to say we haven't done well in the transfer market in recent years - we haven't. There was probably a fair amount of bad luck involved - Anderson, Hargreaves.

    For comparison lets look at other clubs. In the last 3 years Real Madrid have bought Ronaldo, Kaka, Benzema, Di Maria, Xabi Alonso, Khedira and Ozil for a total of ca. £240M - 7 front players of the highest class. City got Yaya Toure, Silva, Aguero, Tevez and Nasri for about £150M. Who got the best value?
  27. Apr 23, 2012

    Gazza Magic Carpet Pilot

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    Some of the football we've played this season has been up there with the best I've seen as a United supporter - the combination work between Nani, Welbeck, Rooney, Cleverley at times - so it would be way off for me to ask the sort of question in the thread title. Plus, we're still really good at winning league titles (hopefully we still are this season), so not much to complain about for me!
  28. Apr 23, 2012

    moses control

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    I have no idea either, yet.
    To start with a fairer comparison would be all their spending since the same time, not just a selection of their hits.

    If you think I'd swap all our signings for 5 city players you are nuts. It's a squad game, not 5 a side. And City's squad doesn't cope with injuries and suspensions the way ours does. So we have gotten better value.

    As for Real, the wages skew your accountancy and also the fact it's in Madrid and not Manchester plays it's part. If you won't have us compared to Liverpool then it's a bit rich comparing us to Real.


    edit - Ae you really saying City have had better value in the transfer market than United ? Really?
  29. Apr 23, 2012

    Leroy The Red Full Member

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    No mention of Valencia yet a mention of Nasri, how does that work? And with Real Madrid you mentioned Kaka, he cost far more than Berbatov and I'd say he's contributed a lot less.
  30. Apr 23, 2012

    moses control

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    I have no idea either, yet.
    It's a nonsense argument, to make us look bad. What's the point?

    Dzeko, Kaka, Hernandez. Who got the best value? Load of me bollox. Means feck all unless it's a proper comparison.
  31. Apr 23, 2012

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    City have spent the guts of half a BILLION quid on new players. And that's being used as an example of canny spending? Mental.
  32. Apr 23, 2012

    Leroy The Red Full Member

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    Yep, looks that way. Why would a United fan want our transfer business to look bad and city's good?
  33. Apr 23, 2012

    moses control

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    I have no idea either, yet.
    It's beyond pessimism. Must be another reason.
  34. Apr 23, 2012

    Red For Ever Full Member

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    HaHa

    Me too, my first visit to OT was in 1965, a lot happened since then.
  35. Apr 23, 2012

    Still ill Full Member

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    I know midfield is a four letter word on here but our defensive problems, many and varied though they've been, are far less worrying to me than our inability to provide a platform from midfield. Scholes and Carrick are clearly our best pairing and both have had good to excellent seasons, yet the fact that we have been overrun fairly regularly through the middle, home and away, by middle rank teams from home and the continent worries me. We rarely dominate games any more, control possession. We win through force of will allied to a cutting edge still intact. We offer no consistent shield to whatever back four we put out. Rafael, Jonny, DeGea, Rio have all had mostly excellent seasons. The middle is still our major problem.
  36. Apr 23, 2012

    Rams extremely handsome, intelligent, gay and talented

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    I remember a few.
  37. Apr 23, 2012

    redhoop Full Member

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    I don't see spoilt brattishness on here; I just see anxiety, frustration and fear. These are all to be expected after throwing away that two-goal lead. It was a high pressure game, the type we are supposed to be so much better at handling than our contemporaries and we blew it.

    History may contextualise the big picture but it doesn't make you feel any better right now, this morning, waking up and having to turn off the sports news (again). I do know kids who have a sense of entitlement when it comes to the success of their team but I sure as hell don't know any adults. Fans who truly care about their team just go through the ringer as they plough through the highs and lows of each season.

    While I'm pretty grateful I'm not, say, a Spurs fan, which must be infinitely more frustrating, I'm not going to condemn others for being a bit over emotional. We don't have to grow the feck up or grow a pair here on the caf; it's great to be able to channel our inner Keegans and wear our hearts firmly on the old sleeve.

    It will be unbelievably sweet if the team step up on Monday, just perfect when they are starting to get smug. The delight of sticking it to Tevez would be worth a lot more pain than some of the last games have caused.

    What posters are saying about our record and future is all fair and reasonable. I would simply contend that a bit of run-in panic doesn't mean posters are twats, just that they are feeling a bit raw.
  38. Apr 23, 2012

    Livvie Executive Manager being kept sane only by her madn

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    Someone said that half of Caf members were thick.
    What he said.
  39. Apr 23, 2012

    Number7 Ret's Slave

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    In reality we are spoiled feckers but our problems are frustrating because it's got nothing to do with ability and all about mentality.
  40. Apr 23, 2012

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    I think that post from redhoop is fair. We're all strung out by the last couple of results and being pissed off about what happened isn't being spoilt at all. It's human nature.

    When it goes too far, though, is when people go from that to down-playing the achievements of the season so far. Even if we do fall short, we've had a fecking good crack at it. Way better than all our usual rivals. That's something which needs to be appreciated, instead of moaning that the players and/or manager somehow don't give a shit.

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