Ranocchia "There's a lack of tactics in the PL"

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by Theafonis, Mar 20, 2017.

  1. Mar 20, 2017
    #41

    Mihai Full Member

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    Of course Andrea, no tactics at all, the managers in the PL are a level below the managers in serie A
  2. Mar 20, 2017
    #42

    acnumber9 Full Member

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    Can he not just cook it himself though?
  3. Mar 20, 2017
    #43

    Classical Mechanic Full Member

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    Good to know that they also learn how to play with no tactics in the Italian tactics school. They really do have all bases covered there.
  4. Mar 20, 2017
    #44

    Vialli_92 Full Member

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    Don't be silly his mum's not around to cook it for him!

    In all seriousness though he's probably never cooked a meal in his life the men in Italy just don't cook.

    He probably goes to restaurants every night and eats out
  5. Mar 20, 2017
    #45

    devilish Drivelish

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    Ranocchia is the italian Phil Jones. Hes not very good in playing football.

    Ps Ranocchia in italian means frog
  6. Mar 20, 2017
    #46

    devilish Drivelish

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    The problem is the veg. Uk vegetables and fruit (ex tomatoes) taste of nothing
  7. Mar 20, 2017
    #47

    devilish Drivelish

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    That's also true
  8. Mar 20, 2017
    #48

    SCP Full Member

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    That is why England will never win anything, boring, very boring. :D
  9. Mar 20, 2017
    #49

    Brightonian Full Member

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    Any game of football is as 'tactical' as any other game contested between 22 men of roughly comparable ability to make the ball do what they want it to.

    The PL is much faster so the tactics are necessarily more fluid and more macroscopic. Serie A is slower so you can put together 'moves' in a more preconsidered way - it's closer to American Football, lots of little set pieces, lots of diagrammatic positioning. Managers who do well at big PL teams recognise that the smaller teams are less willing to concede their inferiority and let you do that - they'll use the weapons they do have, pace and power, to disrupt and to raise the tempo of the game too high for that sort of micro-managed tactics. So you have to use transitional strategies, not teaching the players specific sequences or types of pass and move but rather train them to instinctively respond to the changing phases of the game by adjusting the sort of things they're doing at any given moment. Neither thing is 'more' tactical than the other.

    If you actually want to engage in a dick measuring contest, there are only two valid criteria: who wins when the two leagues compete via European games, and who is entertaining. Right now Spain and Germany have the big schlongs in the former category, and the PL leaves feeling smug in the latter.
  10. Mar 20, 2017
    #50

    djdhrubs Full Member

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    I know shomeone who shtrongly dishagreesh.
  11. Mar 20, 2017
    #51

    SCP Full Member

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    Agree with you at some point, but I think Ranocchia was not saying nothing bad about the EPL, you can see by the reactions in this post or yesterday match when in some peoples mind Mou finished the game playing with 6 at the back.

    I think this is an cultural thing with English fans, because they say tactics is boring, the problem is lack of knowledge or interest about the game and relying only in pace and running is destined to fail.

    One just needs to see the match between England vs Hungary in 1953, and if you look at the comments from the media at the time, it looks impossible to change the way they play in England, if one manager wants his team to control the game with the ball it is considered defensive and boring.

    Nothing wrong with that, but low chance to win today, last great British atractive style of football maybe United in 99, i do not know if in the current moment we can see a team winning the Champions League playing in a classic British 4/4/2.
  12. Mar 20, 2017
    #52

    clarkydaz Full Member

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    Sean Connery?
  13. Mar 20, 2017
    #53

    djdhrubs Full Member

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    Closhe
  14. Mar 20, 2017
    #54

    yumtum DUX' bumchum

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    I'd rather lose being entertained than win watching LvG football, it's always nice to win of course, but football is an entertainment industry, with all the money involved these days the fans wishes and what they pay for is being ignored, entertain us, worry about your trophy cabinet second.

    Though it's all relative, some people love the tactical ways of Barca, me personally I'd always prefer the style of Madrid/United under SAF, counter attack and constant pressure and chance creation, not probing for 25 minutes to see if you can find the perfect final ball, can understand why some would like that though, it's genius how some teams (Barca/Spain) were able to constantly create passing angles around defenders, I just don't find it as entertaining as counter attacking.
  15. Mar 20, 2017
    #55

    AndyJ1985 Full Member

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    If they don't work in this league, why do they work so well when English teams routinely get knocked out of Europe?
  16. Mar 20, 2017
    #56

    MaxiPaxi most absorbent username 2017

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    Didn't that Gabbiadini (sp) striker say something similar?

    Might explain why he's ripping the league apart.
  17. Mar 20, 2017
    #57

    T00lsh3d Full Member

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    Sorry that was far too eloquent, you've lost me
  18. Mar 21, 2017
    #58

    SCP Full Member

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    I did not said to be tactical you need to play like LVG, even if his Ajax from 95, alongside United 99, Barcelona 92, or Juventus 96/97, all of them played atractive football, and all of them were tactical, the problem I have is that entertaining does not mean dismissing tactics, if the players do not understand the game they are always closer to lose than winning.

    Unless you believe like Stanley Mathews tactics do not matter, sorry but he was wrong like the Hungarians showed at Wembley, if football was only about running and crossing there was no need for coaching, the players could do it alone, my opinion only.
  19. Mar 21, 2017
    #59

    ti vu Full Member

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    " Italian is even better at proper English than Brexitist, especially the Scouse" :wenger:

    Or you have to go with club diet, & hardly the cook here would cook pasta at much as cook at Italian club.

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/zlatan-ibrahimovic-psg-sack-chefs-3249099

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
  20. Mar 21, 2017
    #60

    UnrelatedPsuedo I pity the poor fool who stinks like I do!

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    Everything is tactically poorer in the PL. Especially things that have strong roots in England. It's just not how things work there. Our coaching courses are poor. Our qualifications are lightweight. Our coaches at lower levels are pitiful compared to somewhere like Italy. Education in schools is almost non existent. England is a strange country.

    We play 'winning football'. We don't play out tactical battles. We may have an exciting league in terms of results and upsets but we sure as hell don't have the 'best" league and hardly ever have. Ranocchia wasn't trying to be insulting. He was just stating facts.
  21. Mar 21, 2017
    #61

    Keeps It tidy Hates Messi

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    Do you think all the foreign players and managers just turned off the tactical part of their brain once they enter the PL?
  22. Mar 21, 2017
    #62

    yumtum DUX' bumchum

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    Crossing and running is tactical though, obviously some form of tactics are more sophisticated than others, you said a flat 442 won't win anything in the modern era, United in 99 was a 442?

    Case in point Leicester last season won the league by running and crossing, while Arsenal couldn't playing a more tactically advanced game, to dismiss running as a tactic in the modern game is foolish, dismissing any form of tactic is foolish, look at Arsenal, if they had a little steel and more crossing they might get further than 4th!

    In my opinion tactics are only as good as the players you have to deploy them, obviously you wouldn't play route one football with Barca style players, as you wouldn't try to play tiki taka with West Brom, you see in Spain (not saying which league is better here) inferior teams try to go toe to toe with Barca at playing it on the floor, leaving acres of space, and that's great because that's what suits their style, they don't have the physicality to employ tactics like Stoke etc, so they play their own passing game, now obviously Barca have the much better players to perform that style so 9/10 Barca stroll past them, in England there's no elite team (like a Barca/Madrid) that dominates all the rest, so having a plan A that conquers all just won't cut it, so they gotta mix it up.

    Ultimately this transfers negatively in Europe as fatigue plays a massive part, a team like Barca have a huge advantage of being able to perfect their plan A and shift into second gear in alot of the league games.

    Don't mistake me saying one style/tactic is better than other because I'm not, I'm just of the opinion that dismissing physicality as out dated and primitive is rather elitist because not every player can employ certain tactics, if every team played like Barca football would be boring.
  23. Mar 21, 2017
    #63

    UnrelatedPsuedo I pity the poor fool who stinks like I do!

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    No, not at all. That's nothing like what I said.
  24. Mar 21, 2017
    #64

    Keeps It tidy Hates Messi

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    I know that. I am just here wondering how the same issues persist with a league filled with mostly foreign players and managers.
  25. Mar 21, 2017
    #65

    Lay Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016

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    He's not saying the Italian league is better though. He's just saying there's a lack of tactics in England compared to Italy which is pretty obvious anyway. That isn't a negative thing as you could argue Italy are too tactical and are stuck in the past. He isn't the first to say to say it either.

    Ogbonna:
  26. Mar 21, 2017
    #66

    Theonas Full Member

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    Football isn't essentially anything other than what its performers, in this case players and managers, make it to be. If they emphasize tactics, you can be sure that tactics are very important. If they go down a different road, tactics won't matter. It is a fact that managers and football cultures emphasize and are interested in different aspects of the game to varying degrees, tactics being one of them. Therefore, tactics can be both overplayed and underplayed depending on where you are.
  27. Mar 21, 2017
    #67

    SCP Full Member

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    It is not elitist, and I rather watch a lot of teams playing like Barça than Leicester, sorry if I think their football is primitive, for example I hate the way Atletico plays, the only difference is that they have better players than Leicester.

    The problem with the English teams is that they are behind at an tactical and technical level, and if you think crossing and running will change that, you just need to go to youtube and watch England against Hungary in 1953, and try to see what great English managers said about that match, and what was and is wrong with the English game even today, said by Bobby Robson and Don Revie.

    And not all the teams have to play like Barcelona, but if you are going to teach young players only to run and cross, not understand the tactical part of the game, controling the game with exchanging positions, attaking the spaces, creating pass options and so on, if you really believe that should not be teached, well I rather go and see the Hungarian team from 1954 dismissing that, football should be played with the brain and not only instinct, just my opinion.
  28. Mar 21, 2017
    #68

    Billy Blaggs No mates but his cousins love him

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    Tactics are exactly that tactics. Spain tactics ruled the world. Didn't German tactics better them?
    You pick your points to annihilate you opposing threat.
    High line hit over the top. Deep line swarm them. Keep it right go wide.

    It's insulting to think that some guy from a country that hasn't won shit thinks he can tell puerile that we're tactically inept.
  29. Mar 21, 2017
    #69

    Theonas Full Member

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    I remember reading a Xabi Alonso interview where he said something to the effect that the way English stadiums are set up with the fans sitting so close and the passion they have makes it impossible for players not to be carried away themselves. He also made the point that the way the opponents play with such aggression and emotion also plays a big part in how regardless of your training and tactical instincts, you get sucked in to a more "emotional" game in England. The gist of what he was saying is that as much as foreign managers are influencing the football culture in England, said culture also influences them greatly. I personally can definitely see that. You can be 2/0 here playing a way to a mid table team, they might put in a tackle, get a corner, get aggressive with your keeper and the crowd goes absolutely crazy. Suddenly, what seems like a done and dusted game is alive out of no actual footballing quality whatsoever. It makes perfect sense that managers cannot really control entirely the wilderness of the English game. The best ones have always been those who embraced it. Sir Alex and Mourinho did not try to control games, they fill their teams with enough talent to swing that chaos in their favour more often than not. Attacking wise through pacey and strong players and defending wise with ones who relished a "proper" battle. This obviously has its problems though as in the continent, with the different refereeing regulations and the removal of that English aspect of the ground, stadium, and crowd mentality, the lack of tactical strength gets exposed more often than not.
  30. Mar 21, 2017
    #70

    Lay Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016

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    Italy have done better than England throughout footballing history and have done better in international tournaments recently.

    I think people are getting way too sensitive about it. Its basically said by everyone involved in football:

  31. Mar 21, 2017
    #71

    jungledrums Full Member

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    :lol:
  32. Mar 21, 2017
    #72

    UnrelatedPsuedo I pity the poor fool who stinks like I do!

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    Lets say you live in a city that has a bus service every hour. Because life happens you find yourself routinely running once a week to catch the bus or be late for work.

    You then move to a city that has a bus every ten minutes.

    Your days of running for the bus are over. You still could, but it now serves no purpose.

    That's the PL. It's just different. It's very basic. At the sharp end, of course there's a tactical battle. Spurs defeating Chelsea wasn't just a case of Spurs playing better, Poch had seen Chelsea play a certain system all season and set his side up accordingly.

    If you want to do an interesting exercise, take a look at footballers that have won the European Championship or World Cup when playing for a PL side. It's a pitiful number. Do the same for Spain, Italy, Germany and France (Greece and Portugal will provide outliers).

    The numbers involved will blow your mind and make you want to start a thread. I think the number for the PL is 10 medals across 10 tournaments. With 6 of the 10 coming from the 1998/2000 French team. Take the starting 11 for all winners in the past 10 tournaments and run the numbers for other Leagues.

    To frame it in even more plain terms: United are the most successful English club between 1998 and 2016. Yet we've never had a player of ours start a major international final and lift the trophy.
  33. Mar 21, 2017
    #73

    Billy Blaggs No mates but his cousins love him

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    England have done better in recent times. Tactics don't matter. Players do.
  34. Mar 21, 2017
    #74

    Billy Blaggs No mates but his cousins love him

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    I meant club teams
  35. Mar 21, 2017
    #75

    Lay Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016

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    Spaletti has mentioned something about your post recently actually:

    “We're less rigid, that's the quality that's emerging from this season," Spalletti told Roma TV.

    Napoli started with a certain tactical attitude and then changed it. There's a new attitude to reviewing situations, because it's down to the interpretation of the players.

    “The game is less schematic, it's more open to interpretation.
  36. Mar 21, 2017
    #76

    Billy Blaggs No mates but his cousins love him

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    That's why I clarified not England but English teams. You have Messi and tactics don't matter. You could still lose but he's going to wreck any managers head.
  37. Mar 21, 2017
    #77

    Lay Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016

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    Also what Andrea said is no different to what Evra has said before. So don't get why anyone would get upset about it.

    Evra:
    “I have never worked so hard in training in all my life! The difference is the game is less intense, but more tactical, so you have to stay concentrated at all times and cannot be distracted for a moment.”
  38. Mar 21, 2017
    #78

    ti vu Full Member

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    There are more to tactic than you're trying to say here. Crossing & running is tactic too, but different type of crossing & running too. For example, early cross, cross by the by line, Hollywood cross field to ; cross when you only play with 1 forward, 2 forwards one makes run at far post, near post or one closer to keeper, one make late run, box overload; aerial cross, low cross... When to make central run, when overlap on the wing, when to run the whole field without the ball (support the ball carrier)... aka how to make the best use of the ball & beat the opponent defense; while not exposing yourself.

    Italian tends to work on these in detailed in training intensely to prepare for game, while with English teams, they often practice their preferred style regardless of opponent & let instinct rule. The mindset of English is they love the feel (underdog vs domination, blow for blow...), the excitement... while Italian is more realistic when it comes to football

    Tactics help to overcome your limits & negate your opponent strength as much as possible. There is certain thing you can't just overcome when you're opponent is well prepared just as yourself but is better talent wise.

    When you look at Barcelona, you have to say they have an idealism they have to go with even into detriment (just as Athletic Bilbao with basque born players). They just want to do thing differently as they're separatist from Spain system. It's not like they don't understand tactic. They choose to focus on front foot & way to overcome physical deffiency tactic & neglect defensive tactic.

    Leicester didn't just run & cross. They devised their plan so that there is space in behind the opponent defense line so they can use the pace of their attacker with long ball, early cross. They struggled more on second half of the season breaking down team with teams sit deeper. It's not the same as SAF 4-4-2 tactic in early years as we are a superior team & have to play on front foot more & had to box overload & sacrifice our defense so we can score more & beat teams. Ranieri played a nice character in the press & built an image of a team of explorers beating the odds to have media backing them; while SAF had to play the villain with the media & instilled the world vs us mentality within the squad. There, running & crossing but different tactic employed & different mind game (tactic) employed.

    Edit: Italian coaches have their weakness too. Since they're more strict, old schooled & in a way distant from their players; where you see SAF; Mourinho, Klopp Poch... are better in motivational skills. Ancelotti was one odd & was not really successful domestically in Italy but get better in Europe. I agree that there is no absolute tactic. We fortunately had SAF who is great adapting over time, & doesn't get left behind with time.
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
  39. Mar 21, 2017
    #79

    KingMinger22 City >>> United. Moaning twat

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    The tactics slur is the only thing they can come up with.

    Are tactics the reason why Italian football is truly in dire straits?
  40. Mar 21, 2017
    #80

    Mciahel Goodman Worst Werewolf Player of All Times

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    It's a point commonly repeated by many in football. The Italian league is very tactical, and it's been that way for a long time.

    Kessie, the young Ivorian midfielder, had this to say recently:

    Doesn't mean Serie A is better than the Premier League, it just has a different composition.