Rio's words on Kane and Lukaku: A Real No. 9

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Red4Life_#7, Feb 1, 2018.

  1. Feb 2, 2018

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    "like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
    I have no idea what a "75 million player" looks like tbh. I guess they should carry around their salary slip so I can read it? I know what I do see in that video. A striker who spends 90 minutes dealing with hopeful high balls punted in his general direction but generally did well on the rare occasion he got a decent pass into his feet. The one and only gripe I'd have from those highlights is the fact he underhit the pass back to Martial. Which is, apparently, enough reason for the great and good on here to decide he Must. Be. Sold. Immediately!
  2. Feb 2, 2018

    bosnian_red Worst scout to ever exist

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    Aguero has 10 goals and assists in 9 appearances against the top 10 teams. Salah is Liverpool's main goalscorer and the one who most of the chances fall to with Firmino being more of a false 9, but in 12 games Firmino has 8 goals and assists. Morata has been crap but has 7 goals or assists in 12 games.
    So... yeah. Those numbers are way off
  3. Feb 2, 2018

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018

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    I checked in whoscored; will double check later.
  4. Feb 2, 2018

    TheRedDevil'sAdvocate Full Member

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    There's truth to both sides of the argument. Kane is on a different level to the rest of the PL forwards and his development over the last five years has been magnificent. The effort he's put in (and still does), his passion and love for playing the game at the highest level and the huge leaps he's taken from "that's a good player" to "he could become as good a traditional forward as Shearer" to "he may become Real Madrid's new star player" should be shown as bright examples in football schools. It's not degrading for him to suggest that he also benefits from having a young player with surprisingly good off the ball movement for an Englishman (sorry but it's true) and a playmaker who's not burdened with an #8's duties too playing right behind him. It's not degrading to also suggest that Spurs' frontline has benefitted from having ample time to gell together without being constantly scrutinized by everyone on the island for not delivering the PL title.

    Lukaku has to deal with criticism for the latter and he's not as good as Kane, to begin with. The deficiencies in his game have been already mentioned by several posters and there's no need for me to repeat them. Despite them, he's still a good goalscorer. He's definitely not a top-class forward but he can be more useful than what we're seeing right now. For what it's worth, i believe that he's somewhat a victim of circumstances.

    I think he wasn't Mourinho's first choice for the lone forward position. When it became obvious that Lukaku would be as good as it gets in last summer's transfer window (with Zlatan's injury pressing us to make a choice), Jose started thinking of ways to adjust his plan. I think there's truth to the Griezmann rumours because Antoine has mastered the art of playing as a second striker, working the spaces between the lines and linking up with the main forward. There's no point in denying that Lukaku's limitations make it very difficult for him to play as the lone forward with the rest of the team several yeards away from him.

    When we saw that this wasn't going to happen we turned towards Perisic. A player who can stretch the pitch wide and put good deliveries in the box, a department in which we lack serious quality. If you watch Lukaku's goal you'll notice that most come from headers/shots when he's isolated in the box with one defender. When that didn't work either Mourinho decided to revert to his default plan for the attack with the hope that Lukaku will eventually get it right.

    Still, Lukaku can't be absolved of any criticism. It's his responsibility too to develop a good understanding with Martial and Sanchez as it is theirs (and the rest of the team) to make better use of his abilities.
  5. Feb 2, 2018

    bosnian_red Worst scout to ever exist

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    Yeah I just went through on whoscored. Normal top 6, then burnley, leicester, everton and bournemouth round out the top 10. Think we should only look at top 6 though, the teams 7-20th are more or less around the same level.
  6. Feb 2, 2018

    J_Red 11 Banned

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    Watched the videos I think there were only 3 clips where he control the ball with his feet. The rest are just winning header, some flicks, try to outmuscle defender before take a shot and basic stuffs, poor touch during offside, poor late run whenever Lingard & Matic tried to give him through ball and long ball, basically most of the time he was static instead of looking for run to give his midfielder option for early passes. Both Martial & Sanchez struggled massively to find him.
  7. Feb 2, 2018

    Van Piorsing Lost his light sabre

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    75 millions for a consistent PL goalscorer in relatively young age but also price for potential. How and when Lukaku will be fully developed is now only in hands of Manchester United, no one else.

    Wenger had to spend long years for RvP to become a title winning striker but in the end it was worth it... (for a title wininng team that is)
  8. Feb 2, 2018

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    "like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
    Correct. Which is my point. 3 passes to his feet in 90 minutes. Which is a diabolical lack of service. The rest of the game he's feeding off scraps, including out-muscling two defenders to get a powerful shot on goal after a hopeful pass over the top. All of which makes the frantic scapegoating after this particular game all the more stupid.
  9. Feb 2, 2018

    Slimcharles69 Banned Scouse Lover

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    To be fair I can’t think of any striker in the world who I’d say is at the level of Kane. The Benzemas, lewandowkis and Suárez of the world are not at the level they used to be anymore.
  10. Feb 2, 2018

    DreamIsh Banned

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    Just saw on the debate Gary and Carra talking about how both Kane and Lukaku were feeding off scraps in that game.

    Difference is Kane’s hold up play and ability to bring others into play was incredible. Lukaku on the other hand was absent.

    One thing I will say though is that Lukaku is still very young at 24. He may never reach the heights of Kane but I do think he is a top 4 striker. Problem is he wasn’t cheap, so it’s not unnatural to be expecting more from him.

    (A question on the fee for United fans: The deal was £75million plus £15mil in add ons right? Are those performance related add ons? If so he may only cost you £75million no?)
  11. Feb 2, 2018

    Boycott Full Member

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    My two cents...

    Discount his physique. It'll only be an asset if/when he learns how to use it. For all the talk about his touch, if he could play with his back to goal or when touch-tight with a defender, his strength can make up for loose touches because he can shield the ball and buy himself a moment or two to settle.

    Harry Kane when he initially shone was applauded for his work rate greatly. He buzzed around, held the ball up well, harried and scored a number of goals. But go back to his threads and opinion pieces then and the common theme was 'I don't know what it is he's good at yet he's been on fire'. People compared him with Muller. But as time has gone on he's improved his technical and physical game so much now he doesn't have to run around furiously to gain an advantage. Instead of working hard he works smart. Conserves energy and picks out opponent weaknesses.

    Glenn Hoddle made a fantastic point that Kane in the first half didn't just occupy the CBs but he drifted wide to create an overload. Young could not deal with Trippier and the amount of space Trippier got is partly due to Kane's movement. How many times did Young tuck inside? Far too much to say it was by design.

    Lukaku has shown quality in an inside-right position when he can face up to a defender. For Everton and Utd. Perhaps this is the solution. He doesn't have fluent close control - he's not a donkey but you can tell he needs a second or two longer to execute things which Kane does instantly like getting on the half turn or spreading play. For that reason he struggles in these games because we don't create for him but he doesn't offer an outlet for others. On the right however he can have a run at a player and won't be so isolated.
  12. Feb 2, 2018

    The_Order Full Member

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    Man, our fans can be absolute twats.

    Yeah, Kane is a better striker than Lukaku... Well duh....feck sakes.
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
  13. Feb 2, 2018

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018

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    Ah, I think I missed Bournemouth while calculating. So that's 5 goals + assists for Lukaku, 8 for Firmino, 7 for Morata, 8 for Aguero. Not a big difference to call Lukaku's record as terrible compared to other clubs lead forwards.

    Yeah, if it's just top 6 then Lukaku and Morata are worse.
  14. Feb 2, 2018

    mancan92 Full Member

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    Lukaku has played more games and minutes than all of them so take that into account.
  15. Feb 2, 2018

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018

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    Also plays in not so all out attack teams, take that into consideration too.
  16. Feb 2, 2018

    mancan92 Full Member

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    Why is martial able to have an equal record in half the playing time?
  17. Feb 2, 2018

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018

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    Isn't the obvious answer is Martial is much better player than Lukaku? Not sure what you are trying to achieve here, Do you disagree that City and Liverpool are better attacking team than Manutd?
  18. Feb 2, 2018

    mancan92 Full Member

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    The point is martial isn't even a striker but has better stats than lukaku in half the time. So you can't complain about how attacking we are when lukaku hasn't even done more than a winger who has played half the time.
  19. Feb 2, 2018

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018

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    Not sure it's just as simple as that. Martial is much better player and can score goal with his individual skill, not sure anyone even disagrees with that. Lukaku can't. So yes how much team attacks must also be considered if you want to compare with different teams who have slightly better stats.

    Anyways I'm done with this. Not sure what you are even arguing when the difference is just 1-3 goals between other top strikers.
  20. Feb 2, 2018

    PaidMonk New Member

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    Lukaku really needs to develop his skills and improve his movements.

    He's got a long way to go to become a world class no. 9
  21. Feb 2, 2018

    mancan92 Full Member

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    But it is not its 6+ compared to other "top strikers" (Salah, Kane and agurero) no one will argue morata or firmino are top strikers. But even they have contributed more than lukaku in far less playing time.
  22. Feb 2, 2018

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018

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    Aguero has scored 8. Firmino played around 200 mins less, not sure how many he missed against top 10 and I'm not even arsed to check that.

    salah is not a lead striker, Kane is obviously in different level. No one even argued against that.

    If Lukaku's record is pathetic then so is Aguero's and Firmino's.

    Edit: Not sure why I even replied. Good day.
  23. Feb 2, 2018

    breakout67 Full Member

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    It's very obvious that Kane is better than Lukaku, but he was not for sale so we didnt get him.
  24. Feb 2, 2018

    mancan92 Full Member

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    Goals and assists agurero has 11 in 8 games. Lukaku has 5 in 13 how is that comparable. Against top 10 teams firmino has 300 less minutes but contributed 3 more goals and assists without being the focal point fit their attack. The mental gymnastics your doing are absolutely ridiculous.
  25. Feb 2, 2018

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018

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    Aguero:
    1 assist vs Liverpool away
    2 goals and 1 assist vs Bournemouth
    1 goal vs Arsenal
    1 goal vs Burnely
    1 goal and 1 assist vs Liverpool home

    So what did I miss from Aguero's record? Aguero also scored 2 from penalty spots.

    You talking about mental gymnastics? :lol: Considering your pathetic posts from the start and constant goal posts shifting.

    Btw If I have counted correctly, both Firmino and Lukaku played 12 games against top 10 (I may be wrong, not arsed to count with more details)

    Against top teams Firmino played 239 mins less than Lukaku.
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
  26. Feb 2, 2018

    whatwha Sniffs Erricksson’s diarrhea

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    Everton played their hand extremely well, being cool headed enough to give off the impression they wouldn't sell for less than £100m, after signing him from Chelsea for £25m or something.
  27. Feb 2, 2018

    whatwha Sniffs Erricksson’s diarrhea

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    Maybe inform yourself about the transfer fees instead of posting nonsense like this. Lukaku cost £75m up front with another £15m in "easily achievable" add-ons. Thus it is not dishonest to refer to him as a £90m player.

    Martial cost €50m up front with another 3 * €10m add-ons, one or two of which have been paid already. Bringing the price to €60m or €70m and possibly €80m in the future.
  28. Feb 2, 2018

    Handré1990 Full Member

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    Lukaku isn’t playing in a functioning attack. We’ve no plan for our attacking play (that I can gather from my admittedly amateur experience in such matters). In my opinion Lukaku hasn’t had the chance to show off his best level. Having said that, Kane is obviously a level or two above. He missed chances, but still managed to look the best player on the pitch for me. So effective in his link up- and hold up play. Dominated our defenders, and is for me the best striker in the league. World class is Kane, not sure about Lukaku yet.
  29. Feb 2, 2018

    Levy-nomics Banned

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    Kane is obviously the much better player, but you guys are taking Lukaku's performance way out of proportions. He had a decent game, you could even say as good as he could have had with the way you guys played and serviced him. He has some gaps in his game, but those were known before you signed him you would have expected them to be worked on through the season. If there is anyone to blame for his, Pogba's, and even the whole teams performance it should be Mourinho. The amount you spend and the quality you have he just don't seem to be able to get out of those players what their capable of let alone push them to another level something Pep and Poch have been able to do with their players.

    Also the fact that you guys went for Sanchez is also quite mind boggling, I understand you can't really pass on a world class player, but there are exceptions especially when your most talented and efficient scorer Martial already plays that position. It was clear as day when we played you that Martial was completely out of depth on the right in the first half and I belive that is also going to be the case for Sanchez who is build he game on cutting and dribbling to the right. Your basically still with out a RW something you needed for a better team balance, funny enough you guys passed on Lucas Moura who I think would have been ideal for you guys.
  30. Feb 2, 2018

    Mozza It’s Carrick you know

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    Lazy punditry
  31. Feb 2, 2018

    J_Red 11 Banned

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    Can't give him good service if he doesn't make intelligence movement you know, he made defenders too easy to mark him. Spurs first goal shows Kane's mobility, early run which allowed Vertonghen to made early pass, as a result they stretched our defense (Young, Smalling & Jones).
  32. Feb 2, 2018

    Mozza It’s Carrick you know

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    It was a long punt upfield, hardly a pass. The important part wasn't the movement of Kane, it was the movement of the support runners, rare as hens teeth in Mouriniho's united
  33. Feb 2, 2018

    J_Red 11 Banned

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    The same thing what we did to Lukaku in that game then. The difference is Lukaku being static and wait in his position while Kane was mobile which made Jones all over the place in that game.
  34. Feb 2, 2018

    Mozza It’s Carrick you know

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    You completely ignore the lack of support runners, Kane has someone to give the ball to, Lukaku is isolated
  35. Feb 2, 2018

    RedorDead21 Full Member

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    Lukaku has had plenty of games showing good passing he just needs men around him.....
  36. Feb 2, 2018

    J_Red 11 Banned

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    But you are ignoring the fact that Lukaku struggles against tight defense, the passes that he can make in tight situation is just backward or short simple passing. That's why he needs to find his own space and get away from defenders, don't let defenders easily marking him.
  37. Feb 2, 2018

    J_Red 11 Banned

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    He won't show it if he let defenders to mark him easily especially against teams with high press like Spurs, Liverpool, City, Southampton and etc. He needs to find his own space to actually make that good passings! He won't get enough space against tight defense.
  38. Feb 2, 2018

    Mozza It’s Carrick you know

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    That's exactly what he's supposed to do, use his strength and pace to hold the ball up and lay it off to the creative types. Except they are 20 yards away because our manager can't train them to move properly
  39. Feb 2, 2018

    RedorDead21 Full Member

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    He could run left to right and vice versa for 90 minutes....we don't have the ball in the opponents final third often enough against some of these teams for it to make any difference....he's not supported...its not cohesive...the interplay isn't there in some of the difficult games....thats all there is to say...it's not his fault!
  40. Feb 3, 2018

    J_Red 11 Banned

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    You are moaning about Lukaku lacks of "support runners". But our players won't make run to give Lukaku option for pass because all he can only do in tight defense is lay off the ball or pass it short and safe.

    And you got it wrong here. What Lukaku had been doing in that game was using his strength to defend the ball and make short simple pass. With just strength alone isn't enough, with his lack of technical ability he needs space to find other players and make pass but he's too static. It's like when people were moaning about players who has no technical skills like Carrick, he struggled to handle high pressure but he uses his intelligence to find space for him to make passes.