Rooney or Van Persie

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Inspectah deck, Mar 5, 2012.

  1. Mar 5, 2012
    #81

    amolbhatia100 Barbiturates ain't got nothin' on me

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    Is Giggs better than Van Persie? He's been better over the course of their careers by more than a country mile. That must automatically make him the better player right now.
  2. Mar 5, 2012
    #82

    kouroux Full Member

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    I look at the two teams they're playing in and the supporting cast they both have.It's what makes RVP's performances since last year a lot more impressive than Rooney's (who has still been very good for United).Without him Arsenal are truly fecked, United would also feel Rooney's absence but not to the same extent.
  3. Mar 5, 2012
    #83

    amolbhatia100 Barbiturates ain't got nothin' on me

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    When Ronaldo became the best player in the world in 2007/8 was Rooney a better player because he had done better since they were teenagers?
  4. Mar 5, 2012
    #84

    Cheesy Full Member

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    Maybe he was quite highly rated, but he hardly managed to deliver at all. In his first two seasons, he only scored 5 league goals, and did play over 20 games in both of those seasons. It took him a few years at Arsenal until he really got going.
  5. Mar 5, 2012
    #85

    Feed Me I'm hungry

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    You make a lot of fair points.

    Dealing with a definition of "easily" first. I've just Googled it and it said: "without difficulty or effort" - if you think that it's effortlessly easy to say RvP is better than Rooney, then that is your prerogative but I don't see it that way. You know full well that Rooney brings a lot of intangible qualities to the table that are crucial to our team.

    I think RvP's qualities are being accentuated because he seems to be putting in a super-human one man effort, whereas Rooney is part of a collective that pulls its weight. The proof is in the pudding when Rooney doesn't play though, we're often transformed for the worse.

    Moreover, RvP has been incredible, but to say Rooney has never reached that level is grossly unfair given that during his own golden goalscoring period in 09/10 he scored 34 in 44 - our season basically hinged on his ankle problem.

    This season Wayne has scored 22 in 30, while RvP has scored 31 in 36 - ratios of 0.73 and 0.86 respectively. So while RvP has been incredible, Rooney isn't that far behind. It's not inconceivable that Rooney could get very near to RvP this season if he goes on one of his fabled goal sprees.

    When it comes down to it, I think there's very little between them. Overall, given his lesser years, his superior track-record and my perception that he has a more allround game, I prefer Rooney. RvP has been incredible for a couple of seasons though, credit to him.

    I think sometimes we underplay Rooney's goalscoring ability. Having dug up his stats, I'm seriously surprised and impressed that he's one in two given that a) he hasn't entered his peak yet, and b) he's played in a lot of different positions.
  6. Mar 5, 2012
    #86

    Feed Me I'm hungry

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    You're just being facetious now.

    It would be a ridiculous comparison to make.
  7. Mar 5, 2012
    #87

    Feed Me I'm hungry

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    The level that Ronaldo attained was higher than what RvP has.

    He has an astonishing goal rate, despite not being an out and out striker, and he won medals.
  8. Mar 5, 2012
    #88

    ArmchairCritic You got pets me too mines are dead

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    I think he was out on the wings when he first came, not really sure. That said I'm sure he had far less pressure arriving at Arsenal with his pricetag than Rooney did arriving here, he was also a few years maturer too.
  9. Mar 5, 2012
    #89

    Feed Me I'm hungry

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    Rooney's 27 in October and RvP is 29 in August.

    This also has to be taken into account. If we use the logic that a footballers peak is some stage between 27 and 32 (crude and inexact, granted, but generally accepted) then it's fair to say, let's have a look at Rooney in a couple of years time.

    I still don't feel he's matured to his full capacity. The last thing is consistency now. The final, vital part in the jigsaw to take him into the world's top bracket.
  10. Mar 5, 2012
    #90

    amolbhatia100 Barbiturates ain't got nothin' on me

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    Disagree. We're a great football team but we're not that good that a player playing at a phenomenal level, who is leaving footballing audiences all over the land pretty amazed gets hidden behind the much larger picture. You only have to see Ronaldo's influence at OT. He was clearly better than Rooney. And every week people were just shocked at how good he was because he was head and shoulders the best player on the pitch very often. Van Persie has in my mind is now hitting similar, albiet lower, levels in my mind. He's been the kind of player who beats teams on his own through sheer brilliance. Like Ronaldo, that player always stands out. Rooney hasn't been that player ever. It's a bit like Henry once was when he pissed on defenders in this league. That'st the level Rooney should be aiming for.
  11. Mar 5, 2012
    #91

    Cheesy Full Member

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    Well I certainly wouldn't agree anyway that he's easily better than Rooney. I certainly think that he is a better player than Rooney, but the term 'easily' can be misinterpreted and it would suggest that Van Persie is out of Rooney's league, which I don't think he is. The only players who are easily better than Rooney, in my mind, are Messi and Ronaldo.

    Rooney is a much better goalscorer than some give him credit for, but even in his best goalscoring days, I don't think that he's been as good as Van Persie is now, to be honest. Like others have said, what sets Van Persie above many other strikers is the way that he carries his Arsenal team. He isn't just their best player, he really does carry them, and it's not as if Arsenal are an average mid-table side. They've actually got a respectable side, however they still find themselves being so dependant on the one player. Rooney would probably be Arsenal's key player if he went there, but I couldn't see them being so dependant on him like they are with Van Persie.

    I'd maybe give Rooney the benefit of the doubt if Van Persie had only been showing that this season, however he's been consistently world class for the past two seasons, and showed several glimpses of it in the years before that, but was hindered by injuries.

    We'll probably have to agree to disagree on this one. You've said that I make some good points, and you've made some good points and I see where you're coming from. Ultimately, we just have different opinions on the matter.
  12. Mar 5, 2012
    #92

    amolbhatia100 Barbiturates ain't got nothin' on me

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    Obviously. But I'm making a point using the logic in that when a player suddenly hits totally new levels and becomes a new player (which could be the case with VP) then it doesn't really make sense to take the whole length of his career at the club as him as a player today. You wouldn't say that player is worse than players who have been at half his current level just because they've been at that level for ages. Not talking about VP and Rooney, just making general points about the time frame.
  13. Mar 5, 2012
    #93

    amolbhatia100 Barbiturates ain't got nothin' on me

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    Yes, his level was higher. But I'd put Van Persie's current level somewhere between Rooney and Ronaldo and slightly more in Ronaldo's direction than Rooney's.

    The medals bit isn't really relevant in this discussion. He can't be a lesser player because he's at Arsenal.
  14. Mar 5, 2012
    #94

    John_Jensen Full Member

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    And that's ignoring the fact that Van Persie played wide left & wide right for most of his first 3/4 years at the club & his numbers are not too dissimilar to Giggs etc. whom i'm guessing you would consider to have been 'at the races'?
  15. Mar 5, 2012
    #95

    rednev God Save My Gracious Queen

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    Rooney.
  16. Mar 5, 2012
    #96

    Feed Me I'm hungry

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    But in fairness, RvP is only doing that for the first time in his career now. Look at his previous seasons, they were good, but not great. You're painting RvP as some sort of demi-god who is making everyone he plays bow before him. The reality is that this is his first 30 goal season, aged 28. Plenty of players have scored 30+ goals in one season before. In any case, Rooney was doing the same in 09/10 before injury curtailed his campaign.

    Fact is, as good as his current form is, RvP has achieved nowhere near the consistency of a van Nistelrooy, Shearer, Owen or Henry.
  17. Mar 5, 2012
    #97

    Feed Me I'm hungry

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    I agree with much of what you're saying. There's no denying that RvP is in sensational form and is one of the world's top strikers. But the super-human run isn't as prolonged as you'd have me believe.

    For instance, last season he finished with 22 in 33 - a tally that is inferior to what Rooney himself has this season.

    RvP's brilliant run has really come to fruition this season. Credit to him, but he's certainly not been as unbelievable as Amol is making out.
  18. Mar 5, 2012
    #98

    Cheesy Full Member

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    Van Persie hasn't managed to achieve that consistency throughout his career, but I don't think that this can really be regarded as form from him this season. With a lot of players, you can say that they've been good but they've been playing better than they really are. I don't think that can be said for Van Persie, because of how good he has been this season. Even if he's performing beyond his normal level, he's been so good that his normal level would still be world class, and probably still better than Rooney. This isn't form from him, this is him finally showing his true ability, in my opinion.
  19. Mar 5, 2012
    #99

    Feed Me I'm hungry

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    I'm not ignoring anything intentionally. I'm not really well-versed with how RvP was doing when he first got to Arsenal.

    I merely came into this debate railing against the assertion that he's easily the better player because he's supposedly a more consistent goalscorer.

    The players' respective careers at their current clubs (starting in the same season) have resulted in very similar stats.

    I'm comfortable with my view that there's very little between them.
  20. Mar 5, 2012

    Feed Me I'm hungry

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    I don't disagree with any of that.

    But Amol said earlier that RvP has attained a level that was Henry-/Ronaldo-esque. Given that his sublime scoring form amounts to one season, I'd say that's hyperbolic in the extreme.

    Like I said, 22 in 33 last season is a very good but not great tally.
  21. Mar 5, 2012

    amolbhatia100 Barbiturates ain't got nothin' on me

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    I do acknowledge that it's just a year and two months that he's been this good, but in that time (and it's not a short time span by any means) I'm seeing a player who is achieving clearly a higher level than the rest (in my mind). So I can't help but consider him the best right now. It would be silly for me to think anyone else is better than him when for a year he's been phenomenal reminscinent of the absolute best the premier league has seen.

    Whether he can keep this level or thereabouts obviously remains to be seen. But he is a step ahead of Rooney for me as of the last year. I can't call players who haven't seen hit that phenomenal level as better. That would be strange.

    Having said that, I don't consider Rooney ahead of the rest of the premier leagues players either. He is in a bracket of 4 or 5 of the best players in the league currently behind VP IMO.
  22. Mar 5, 2012

    TheHorse'sMouth Full Member

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    I still think Robin is a far more natural as a number 10, even though he's making me eat my words daily. His technique is the soundest and arguably the most cleanest in the league and his vision is an underrated part of his game. I agree with Bergkamp that his best position is as a support striker, but his goalscoring over the last two seasons has been nothing short of phenomenal.

    Rooney hasn't been as injury prone as RVP has over the years, people are forgetting too easily the fact that he has lost at least 2 seasons due to injury and it's only now he's showing truly what he's capable of.
  23. Mar 5, 2012

    John_Jensen Full Member

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    I'd agree with that, i think Rooney's goalscoring is a little underrated by some and the same can be said about Van Persie's effectiveness apart from his goalscoring.

    Both great players but RvP's grace of movement vs the fact Rooney looks like a potato tips the balance in favour of the Dutchman for me.
  24. Mar 5, 2012

    Cheesy Full Member

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    I'd say that comparing him to Ronaldo is a step too far. I can see where comparisons to Henry are coming from, and I wouldn't have him too far off based on this season alone, but honestly, Ronaldo at his very best is above both for me.
  25. Mar 5, 2012

    amolbhatia100 Barbiturates ain't got nothin' on me

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    I've added the one year disclaimer before. It would be hard to put in every post. I'm saying that for ONE year he's reached a LEVEL (not goalscoring, overall performances as a striker including manner of goals scored) a bit below those guys. And on the basis of that, I consider him the best.

    I'm not actually saying Van Persie is as good as Ronaldo or Henry. They did it for longer and were genuinely better even in that time than he has been this year. But on the basis of him getting even close to them for a year he is IMO the best in England.
  26. Mar 5, 2012

    vuc First Team Serb

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    Oh my point has been rendered null and void because of a whole 0.1 extra goals per game over an extra 50+ games... Yeah.

    As for the big game sentiment, I already admitted that mistake but as I said later I would rather have Van Persie in a big game situation than Rooney. That's it.
  27. Mar 5, 2012

    amolbhatia100 Barbiturates ain't got nothin' on me

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    I agree with that, actually. But the fact that we're even talking about players like Ronaldo and Henry, the best players this league has seen, that for me makes him the best. As I've said I've acknowledged the duration being not the longest but it's long enough for him to be the best right now given we're talking about the present and not overall careers.
  28. Mar 5, 2012

    Claymore Full Member

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    This season? RVP but compare the careers and Rooney leaves him standing IMO, in terms of what he's done in the game.
  29. Mar 5, 2012

    Feed Me I'm hungry

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    Rooney's missed a fair chunk through various injuries. Not mention that he's very slow to get into his stride following on from a spell out.
  30. Mar 5, 2012

    Feed Me I'm hungry

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    But Rooney achieved a similar level in 09/10 for United and England too...?
  31. Mar 5, 2012

    Feed Me I'm hungry

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    More baseless statements.

    You say you were wrong about Rooney not being a big game scorer, yet you would still have RvP. What are you basing this on?

    Rooney has habitually scored shed-loads against the likes of City, Arsenal, Chelsea and Tottenham. It's only his record against Liverpool which was in question, though he's still not done badly against them.

    I don't understand what you're basing this big game thing on.

    And you make it sound like I'm being petty over the goals-per-game comparison. I was merely showing you that RvP isn't the more consistent scorer.

    Edit: the fact that Rooney's goal ratio is better than RvP's over considerably more games is impressive. It's harder to keep a ratio up over more games.
  32. Mar 5, 2012

    Baby Faced Assassin Pastor of Muppets

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    Imagine Rooney playing off Van Persie. :drool:
  33. Mar 5, 2012

    vuc First Team Serb

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    I would rather have Van Persie than Rooney in a big game, because even though they may have similar records in the big games I trust Van Persie to score more than I do Rooney. It's that simple. He is IMO a better striker.
  34. Mar 5, 2012

    JazzG Resident Arse.

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    I was referring to their patch in the PL, what C.Ronaldo and Messi are doing in La Liga is just insane really!

    I still think RvP's 25 goals in 27 games is better personally also when you consider Rooney was playing in a better side. I could be wrong but with Rooney he can be a bit hot and cold. For five games he will bang in 10 goals and then not score for another 7 or 8. That for me is the only thing which lets him down compared to the very best because the talent and ability is definitely there.

    I personally think he is mainly due to the fact he is performing so well when you consider that our team has generally been very poor. Ronaldo and Henry did it playing in fantastic teams.
  35. Mar 5, 2012

    Feed Me I'm hungry

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    You trust RvP to score more than Rooney in a big game, despite them both having similar records in big games.

    Fair enough.
  36. Mar 5, 2012

    kouroux Full Member

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    As someone who used the word "easily", I never that RVP was better than Rooney.I just was talking about his performances since a year ago.You can be better than a player but he can still out perform you
  37. Mar 5, 2012

    vuc First Team Serb

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    I do, I think Van Persie is more clinical.
  38. Mar 5, 2012

    Feed Me I'm hungry

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    Kevin Phillips once scored 30 in 36 for Sunderland in a PL season. It's too simplistic to reduce it to just goals, especially when the player in question is the absolute fulcrum of the team. No one else takes the mantle generally, because they all defer to RvP.

    It's not to denigrate RvP, but I just feel that the debate is more nuanced than some would have us think.

    For me:

    1) You can't say RvP has attained a Shearer-/Henry-/Owen-/van Nistelrooy-/Ronaldo-esque level of scoring because he's essentially done it for one season, something that Rooney himself has done.

    2) There's numerous examples of players filling their boots when the team is set up completely to serve them - see Phillips.

    RvP has had a great season. Does that mean he's scaled the heights of some of the Prem's greats? No chance. Not yet. Come back if he's done it over two or three seasons.
  39. Mar 5, 2012

    kouroux Full Member

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    Tbh he's been at it for more than one season
  40. Mar 5, 2012

    Feed Me I'm hungry

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    According to Football Statistics, Football Analysis. | WhoScored - a very good stats website:

    RvP has scored 25 goals from 120 shots in the Prem this season = a conversion rate of 20%.

    Rooney has scored 18 goals from 106 shots in the Prem this season = a conversion rate of 17%.

    Incidentally, Rooney has 18 from 21 starts and RvP has 25 from 26.

    All these stats are showing is that RvP in the season of his career has the edge. But it's frigging close.

    What this is also uncovering is that Rooney is a bloody consistent goalscorer in his own right!

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