Roulette Draft - QF: Himannv/EAP vs Skizzo

Discussion in 'Draft Games Forum' started by Indnyc, Sep 18, 2018.

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Who will win this match

Poll closed Sep 19, 2018.
  1. Team Himannv/EAP

    36.8%
  2. Team Skizzo

    63.2%
  1. Sep 18, 2018
    #1

    Indnyc Full Member

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    Himannv/EAP Vs. Skizzo

    [​IMG]Vs.[​IMG]

    Tactics Team Himannv/EAP


    Formation: 4-2-3-1 built around the genius of Sir Bobby Charlton.

    A smooth and well coordinated attach with Law-Charlton being a proven dynamic. Giggs and Jinky provide pace and trickery down the flanks.

    Souness-Alonso is a fully complementary pair gifted with power and passing. Souness provides the steel while Alonso will control the pace with his intelligence and passing from the deep.

    Tresor-Vierchowod is a classic stopper/sweeper combo. They'll be adequate to handle the threat with shielding of Souness and Alonso ahead of them. They have the flair and solidity to contain Henry who better with a partner than a standalone striker anyway.

    Amoros is comfortable at both flanks. In 1982 world cup he was sizzling at left back in a proven defensive partnership with Tresor.

    Blokhin is not a traditional winger and is more likely to cut into middle. Janes was a halfback converted to fullback converted to Sweeper and perfect to squeeze in and provide defensive solidity. He's a good passer himself and has a reputation for being able to start plays from the back.

    Tactics Team Skizzo

    Line up/Formation - 433/4231

    In goal is the legendary Italian Keeper, Gianluigi Buffon. The defense is shored up by one of the best english defenders of all time in Rio Ferdinand, who comes in to partner the ever reliable Hans-Georg Schwarzenbeck. The complementary duo will look to keep tabs on Law, with Schwarzenbeck taking primary responsibility, and Rio covering as necessary.

    Danny McGrain and Bixente Lizarazu take up the full back spots, and would look to overlap in attack where the opportunities arise and could see chances to overload at times. As always though, defense first, and both were defensively sound, all round players who could contribute both ways.

    Paul Scholes comes in to the midfield to partner Claude Makelele, and would look to spring the ball forward to hit openings on the counter. His ability to find quick short passes in between the lines, or longer balls over the top to drop on a dime means he provides an outlet that would need shutting down. Makelele takes primary responsibility for closing down Sir Bobby, and while no easy task, he's well suited for the job with his stamina, work rate and physicality. They create the base for Gunter Netzer to help link the back to the front, as he'd look to get on the ball and find the runs in behind of our front three. The movement, pace, and directness of our front three would create ample opportunities for Netzer to send them in behind. Netzer would thrive in the directness and quick tempo of our setup, especially with the players ahead of him. With an extra outlet behind him in Scholes, and the added goal threat up front, he'd cause some damage unless shut down.

    King Kenny comes in for Conti, and would look to play closer to the forward line. With his ability to play all across the attacking positions, he would look to drift wide at times, but also to probe the defensive line and fill space vacated as the other forwards move around. The front three of Blokhin, Daglish, and Henry is brimming with pace, trickery, hard work, and most importantly, goals. Henry playing through the center as a striker, putting him in where he did his best work. His ability to find the back of the net with clinical finishes in one on one situations, as well as his ability to score from outside the box and beat a man on the dribble, will be key to making the most of our chances on the counter. With his penchant for drifting along the front line and wide left, the fact he put up 23 assists in one season means we needed someone who could take advantage of his movement and vision. Step up Oleh Blokhin. Almost a 1 in 2 goal a game scorer at his peak, he would thrive on the space and movement offered by Henry, and the vision of Henry and Netzer. Daglish was no slouch with his vision and playmaking ,and his eye for goal would further increase our options along the attacking line.

    On the counter, we offer too much of a threat to be shut out, and with distribution from deeper positions with Rio, Scholes, and Netzer, we have too many outlets to be shut down in quick transitions.
  2. Sep 18, 2018
    #2

    Indnyc Full Member

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  3. Sep 18, 2018
    #3

    Edgar Allan Pillow Ero-Sennin

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  4. Sep 18, 2018
    #4

    Edgar Allan Pillow Ero-Sennin

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    Initial thoughts:

    - Makelele/Scholes/Netzer is a static midifield. They would suffer against the workrate of Souness/Charlton.
    - Henry/Dalglish is not really complimentary. It does not have the same fluidity of either Henry/Bergkamp or the lethality of Dalglish/Rush. Both have flourished with totally different type of partners.
    - Too many players who like to operate in the middle in a supporting striker'ish role. Lack of proper defence stretching ability or pace.
  5. Sep 18, 2018
    #5

    Gio 7 times Redcafe Draft Winner

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    :confused:

    It's hard to envisage of two attackers more suited to stretching defences at the top level with their sheer pace than Blokhin and Henry.
  6. Sep 18, 2018
    #6

    Don Alfredo Full Member

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    Both sides have some problems. Netzer would have Alonso for breakfast in my book.

    The question is, how complimentary are Netzer and Scholes? Did Scholes ever shine with a number 10 in the same side?

    Would love to hear some opinions on that.
  7. Sep 18, 2018
    #7

    Skizzo Full Member

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    Makelele was anything but “static” and Netzer dropped deep and roamed forward plenty. Scholes slightly more so in his DLP role, but he’d move the ball quicker than any of your players can close him down.

    You look at players skill sets, and not their specific partnerships every single time. Henry thrived with a creative second striker in behind him. Daglish was at his best with a mobile clinical striker up with him.

    If you want to have some impartial initial thoughts, and not jump straight into your Edgar spiel, that would be a good starting point for a discussion ;)

    Souness-Alonso is similar to the Scholes-Makelele setup, difference being Makelele is better defensively and Scholes is the better deep playmaker. Charlton over Netzer, although you consider what they’re facing, and who do you put on him? Souness? Because he needs to assist with Blokhin on Janes. Alonso? Because he’s not the type to hassle an opponent in that capacity, he’s better at reading and trying to shit down the angles.

    The goal threats here are significantly different too. Law and Charlton are the only real goal threats you possess, and with Makelele-Scholes-Rio—Schwarzenbeck closing down that space, it’s gonna be tough to see where you’d gain a significant scoring advantage.

    The flip side is all my front three and renowned scorers, and all capable of linking play and assisting, as well as finding the back of the net. While both my fullbacks are solid defensively, Blokhin against Janes is weighing heavily in my favour. Not to mention Henry attacking that area, and Lizarazu on occasion overloading, its a key area in my advantage.
  8. Sep 18, 2018
    #8

    Edgar Allan Pillow Ero-Sennin

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    You need somebody to lead the line. You have Blokhin and Henry stretching play and Kenny is also a more of a creator himself. There does not seem to be a balance to the attack. And again Henry nor Blokhin or Dalglish will provide width in traditional sense.

    They are on different areas of pitch and going by positions, he's likely to be facing Souness. Netzer was more of a midfielder playmaker than a goalscoring #10 to directly attack Alonso. As you say, not sold on how effective Netzer/Scholes will be together.
  9. Sep 18, 2018
    #9

    Skizzo Full Member

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    Netzer isn’t a number 10 in the classic sense. I’ll post up Joga’s write up on him again, as it’s always worth a read.

    As for the compatibility, I don’t see it as an issue. As far as intelligence and reading of the game, they’re both intelligent and thrived in a more direct style as opposed to a “ball hogging” type of playmaker. Scholes did well with Carrick for example, who is a very similar type of player to him, and they did well together, albeit not the most defensively sound partnership. Makelele relieves that burden.
  10. Sep 18, 2018
    #10

    Edgar Allan Pillow Ero-Sennin

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    Disagree. Souness-Alonso is more like Scholes-Keane. Makelele is not really the same type of player. As a partnership, Souness-Alonso is more balanced than Scholes-Makelele, imo.
  11. Sep 18, 2018
    #11

    Skizzo Full Member

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    I didn’t say they were the same players, I said a similar setup as in a more defensive minded player next to a player who have who can playmake from deeper.

    The balance is no issue, and as I said, the quality on the purely defensive side (which is what’s needed more with Sir Bobby) and the passing ability from deep, both swing towards Makelele-Scholes. It’s a simplified statement which doesn’t take into account every facet of their game, but it focuses on the parts that are most pertinent to the match at hand.
  12. Sep 18, 2018
    #12

    idmanager Banned

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    Really like the use of Dalglish here. He did drift to the right side quite often when I watched him a bit recently.

    Mcgrain is the one I don't like too much here. Should have a lot more ambitious RB there.
  13. Sep 18, 2018
    #13

    Skizzo Full Member

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    Not everything needs width in a “traditional sense”. How many pyramid formations have you put together on here and argued the same thing. An attack with Blokhin and Henry and Daglish has enough speed and mobility to stretch the line and move into wide areas. Watch any video or match of them and see them do exactly that.


    Don’t look at a static graphic and think he won’t make full use of that area.
  14. Sep 18, 2018
    #14

    Jim Beam Full Member

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    He has Giggs and Johnstone on the wings tbf. Closing down the middle, with Dalglish and Blokhin upfront leaves your fullbacks also pretty isolated against them (as good as Lizarazu and McGrain were). Not saying they will decide the match, but you can't say they aren't significant goal threats.
  15. Sep 18, 2018
    #15

    Skizzo Full Member

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    In regards to the bolded, cheers :) wanted to get him a chance to shine for once, as I don’t think he’s gotten much dues here (which is understandable with where we are) but I thought there was a good foundation for him here to do well.

    In regards to Mcgrain, I wanted a more defensively sound player there instead of a Dani Alves type bombing up. Obviously there’s middle ground, and he was still adept at pushing up, but the idea was to be solid first defensively, and focus on the weak area of the opposition, which is his left back spot and nullify his areas of strength
  16. Sep 18, 2018
    #16

    idmanager Banned

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    Really? I had no clue. Wasn't Bossis the LB?
  17. Sep 18, 2018
    #17

    idmanager Banned

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    Its more about the lack of build up on that side of the flank for me. While Dalglish can drift wide and cut in (like in the absolutely outrageous goal he scored in the video below), having a constant presence keeping that side engaged and giving more options to Scholes and Dalglish to work with would have been ideal.

    Not sure if you have shared this yet, but not a better goal to make your case

  18. Sep 18, 2018
    #18

    Skizzo Full Member

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    Giggs will look to go left, he won’t offer an inside forward style threat. His goal return was never particularly impressive, which is fine since he’s a “classic” style winger. I never said they weren’t players to cause problems, but a consistent goal threat is not their forte.

    For reference. All of Henry, Blokhin and Daglish have more goals than them combined.

    I don’t mean to suggest they aren’t great players, but as you say, they also face defensively solid full backs. On the flip side, Blokhin vs Janes would be a fairly torrid time for the defense. That’s before taking into account Henry taking a turn.
  19. Sep 18, 2018
    #19

    Skizzo Full Member

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    I understand the rationale, and I don’t disagree, I just wanted the focus to be more on the weak full back, and let Daglish roam on the side as he sees fit, while giving a close option to Henry.

    The video though is :drool: thanks for that
  20. Sep 18, 2018
    #20

    Gio 7 times Redcafe Draft Winner

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    Interesting redesign of the attack @Skizzo. Conti looked more natural there to be honest, but I can see Dalglish becoming a great back-to-goal foil for the other two. The right side does look stunted somewhat, but Dalglish has the advantage of thriving on more direct midfield-bypassing service into his body where it's required. Plus he's played a long time with McGrain so there's understanding in the link-up.

    What's the thinking behind Vierchowod on the left and Tresor on the right? With Henry and Blokhin's pace, would he not be a better fit for the other side of the defence? Plus Tresor gets to renew his partnership fwiw with Amoros. Him and Giggs look like a fine flank.
  21. Sep 18, 2018
    #21

    Skizzo Full Member

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    With Conti there it was probably a bit easier to understand at a glance, and easier on the eyes for the teamsheet. Daglish though offers a completely different route, as you pointed out, and I think he’d really enjoy being in the thick of things with that forward set up.
  22. Sep 18, 2018
    #22

    Jim Beam Full Member

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    They will produce a consistent goal threat in terms they will harass and stretch your defense (both had electric pace and dribbling ability in their prime). They also had an excellent link-up play and could provide a deadly pass or a cracking cross.

    It's not so about their individual goalscoring record, it's about them collectively raising the goalscoring threat of that team with Charlton and Law in the mix, especially since you said you will close down the middle of the park which gives them an even better platform to perform. It looks pretty close in terms of both teams attacking potential to me.

    Just saying, haven't decided yet as it looks pretty even at this point.
  23. Sep 18, 2018
    #23

    Edgar Allan Pillow Ero-Sennin

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    I was expecting Conti tbh and am still of the opinion the team is more balanced with him. Janes is comfortable as a CB and will play tucked in to support against Henry/Blohkin, so I don't see Tresor needing more support.

    I think there is a big gap between his midfield and attack. None of his attackers are known for their defensive contribution and he lacks proper ball shuttler working the midfield. The passing of Netzer/Scholes has lots of overlaps in abilities and his midfield is fairly static and lacks pace. And Henry/Dalglish are both better paired with another type of player and not with each other.
  24. Sep 18, 2018
    #24

    Edgar Allan Pillow Ero-Sennin

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    His team needs his fullbacks to provide width as neither of his wide forwards will produce that on consistent basis and that will open up spaces for my pacy/tricky wingers to exploit. Amoros/Giggs is a threat that will get better of McGrain repeatedly in the match.
  25. Sep 18, 2018
    #25

    Skizzo Full Member

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    That entire Lizarazu/Blokhin/Henry Area would have a field day with Janes there. You can gloss over it, but he’s the standout weak link on the field.

    I’m not speaking in hyperbolic. I’ve picked a lot of your players before, and don’t doubt their talent/abilities. But this is a a classic case of a horrible mismatch where you’re trying to deflect elsewhere. Janes is out of his depth, and would constantly need to be covered and helped out, causing the defensive shape to shift and create those openings.

    Edit: it probably sounds overly critical and harsh, but with the attacking class on show, there’s a distinct difference in where the chances will be.
  26. Sep 18, 2018
    #26

    Edgar Allan Pillow Ero-Sennin

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    I'm curious what do you have on Janes to classify him as a weakness? :confused:

    He's a halfback who move to a fullback and then Sweeper and is perfect for the role here. He captained German team 31 times and Dusseldorf even has a stadium named after him!

    Some comments from WC winning managers who have coached/played with Janes....

    If you consider pre-1972 Germany, Janes was the de facto best RB of the era in the country.
  27. Sep 18, 2018
    #27

    Edgar Allan Pillow Ero-Sennin

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    And @Skizzo here are some comments from our resident German expert that you'll find helpful:

    Top 3 German RB along with Lahm and Vogts is some heady company!

  28. Sep 18, 2018
    #28

    Skizzo Full Member

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    See my edit. It’s more a comparison to what’s being asked of him and the company he faces.

    You’re basically asking us to take glory tales of a pre-war player and have him shut out players who have known to trouble world class defenders at a high level of competition. It’s somewhat unfair to completely dismiss him, but it’s also not fair to accurately try and grade him against known quantities when all we have are stories and no footage.
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2018
  29. Sep 18, 2018
    #29

    Edgar Allan Pillow Ero-Sennin

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    Again totally unwarranted and not justified.

    Henry as a leading CF (which he played for NT) was nowhere close to his peak (at Arsenal) Arsenal. You do not have a peak Henry here.

    Janes in a tucked in role should be equal to Blohkin. He was on old school fullback, so will not be lacking physically and by all accounts is a tactically and positionally intelligent player. Blokhin having some kind of superiority is nonsense.

    The only mismatch is Amoros/Giggs vs McGrain. There will be no support from Dalglish or Scholes out wide and he'd get beaten all game.
  30. Sep 18, 2018
    #30

    harms Way Staff

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    Oddly enough sometimes Amoros even switched flanks during the game — for example against Brazil in 1986.
  31. Sep 18, 2018
    #31

    Skizzo Full Member

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    Giggs also played in his peak in a 442, you don’t have peak Giggs here :rolleyes:

    Also for you to completely disregard any defensive work of Daglish highlights more of what you overlook. And Amoros can’t go charging up field with disregard for someone hitting that space he leaves.

    “Beaten all game” remarks just show you’ll be spinning your usual tales and comments with complete disregard for what’s going on. Mcgrain’s credentials speak for themselves if stories are all you need :)
  32. Sep 18, 2018
    #32

    harms Way Staff

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    Tell that to Lobanovsky
  33. Sep 18, 2018
    #33

    Edgar Allan Pillow Ero-Sennin

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    I can tell that to Skizzo :lol:
  34. Sep 18, 2018
    #34

    Don Alfredo Full Member

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    If you attack, Souness is B2B and Alonso covers the space in defensive midfield like he always does. That is the space which Netzer will attack in case of a counter. I am certain they will meet up quite a few times.

    I don't know what you understand under classic #10, of course he wasn't Riquelme. Maybe the definition is different from country to country. In Germany, Netzer is THE gold standard number 10. Even Overath is considered a number 10 in Germany, despite many claims on here that he was some kind of double pivot player.
  35. Sep 18, 2018
    #35

    Edgar Allan Pillow Ero-Sennin

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    Fair point. Netzer is definitely a better midfielder than Alonso, but it's not like he's going to take on Alonso and dribbler past him with trickery and pace. His strengths are in accurate passing and Alonso has good tactical and positional sense to cut off such flows. It certainly will be beautiful to watch.

    You should counter that Scholes pretty much offers the same thing...passing from deep, late runs into box. It's like total of parts is not greater than the sum. Xaviesta was a unique example and it should not be assumed, playing two random midfield playmakers will have same impact....moreso like this case when neither are comfortable out wide (like Iniesta).

    My strengths in flanks cannot be denied. McGrain is a class player, but I own that flank with Giggs/Amoros. A regular supply of crosses from Giggs or Amoros directly to Law and Charlton will be a more direct and simpler route to goal.
  36. Sep 18, 2018
    #36

    Edgar Allan Pillow Ero-Sennin

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    And there was a reason why Netzer and Overath were deemed to not be optimal together. The same would apply to Scholes here imo.
  37. Sep 18, 2018
    #37

    MJJ Full Member

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    Two very similar teams.

    • Like the inclusion of daglish, adds a new dimension to skizzo's attack and targets the area just behind alonso which could cause issues.
    • However, daglish lack of workrate can cause issues on that flank and I expect giggs + amoros to overrun it eventually.
    • HAP midfield works a lot better than skizzo's, I didnt pick netzer in my side as there were questions marks of him operating with another playmaker. I think the same might apply here although scholes can play off the ball a lot.
    • Defenses are stylistically similar, however how will vierchowod react to his manager not rating him? ;)
  38. Sep 18, 2018
    #38

    Skizzo Full Member

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    I’ll address a couple of those points again after court, but don’t forget one defense sports Buffon, and the other Valdes.

    Obviously I’ve picked him myself recently, but that was because he was to be part of a Barcelona homage. Here he’s outmatched and when you take away any benefit of him playing in a particular setup and a system he’s useful in, he becomes just a decent keeper
  39. Sep 18, 2018
    #39

    Don Alfredo Full Member

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    This is what Netzer does with trickery, passing and pace:drool: Just needed a reason to post this:wenger:, one of the greatest goals any individual ever scored if you consider the context. Watch from 1:40 for the full move.

    Yeah I would have liked someone similar to Bonhof, Tardelli etc, pass and move box to box like workhorse next to Netzer. Less flashy names than Scholes, but better fitted to get the most out of Skizzo's brilliant playmaker.
  40. Sep 18, 2018
    #40

    MJJ Full Member

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    :lol: hadnt seen that (says it all about keepers), thats a huge plus for you.