Serie A 90's Draft FINAL - harms vs Moby/Pat_Mustard

Discussion in 'Draft Games Forum' started by 2mufc0, Feb 16, 2018.

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Who would win in the following draft game with all players at their Serie A 90's peak?

Poll closed Feb 17, 2018.
  1. Team harms

    78.3%
  2. Team Moby/Pat_Mustard

    21.7%
  1. Feb 16, 2018
    #1

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    PLEASE READ BEFORE VOTING: voting should be based on player performances in Serie A/Coppa Italia from the 90/91 season to 99/00. Performances outside this timeframe or other competitions do not count.

    TEAM HARMS

    [​IMG]

    VS

    TEAM MOBY/PAT_MUSTARD
    [​IMG]

    HARMS TACTICS


    My defensive core is based on 2 best Italian sides of the 90's — Sacchi/Capello's AC Milan of early 90's and the great mid-to-late 90's Juventus — together they've won 8 out of 10 Serie A titles of the decade. Franco Baresi is arguably the most influential player of the decade, Frank Rijkaard, Ciro Ferrara, Lilian Thuram and Edgar Davids are all among the best players of that era; Amedeo Carboni's body of work in Serie A is also massive — 7 seasons at Roma and 18 caps as a left back for Italy, competing with Maldini. Seeing as there is no left winger on the opponent's team, Thuram will be tucking in most of the time, helping an already monstrous defence to contain the central threat of Batistuta, Chiesa and Mancini.
    Take a look at a great post about Baresi by Gio btw.

    Moby's star man against my defence:

    I don't have records for Coppa Italia, but in Serie A Batistuta's record against Baresi, Ferrara and Thuram is quite miserable:
    - in 9 Serie A games against Baresi Batigol scored 0 goals
    - in 12 Serie A games against Ferrara (3 against Napoli, 9 against Juve) Batistuta scored 3 goals
    - in 6 Serie A games against Thuram (who is going to be tucking in) Batigol scored 0 goals

    Surprisingly, Chiesa looks like a bigger threat to me than Batistuta.

    My midfield is also a notch above my opponent's, and Davids-Rijkaard base is as good as it can be in this draft (and won't look out of place in the all-time final, imo), and Djorkaeff was a formidable player that finished 9th and 11th in Ballon D'Or lists in his first 2 years with Inter, as well as scoring 30 goals over his 3 seasons in Italy. Diego Fuser, a Lazio legend that finds his partner in crime Lilian Thuram in behind him (they've played together at Parma with great success), will also contribute in midfield battle and help with Moby's threat on the left.

    Luis Ronaldo and Alessandro Del Piero is a dream partnership — and I don't have to sell them, you all know how good they were. Ronaldo also had a few great games against Parma and Cannavaro in particular (Buffon bailed Fabio out by saving two penalties, for which he was directly and partly responsible — thankfully I have Del Piero and not Ronaldo as my dedicated penalty-taker :lol:)

    MOBY/PAT_MUSTARD TACTICS

    Formation: 3-4-1-2

    We've completed our team with Paolo Maldini. In terms of success (5 Serie A titles and 3 Coppa Italias across the decade), longevity (top-tier quality in his position for the entire decade) and peak (one of the greatest defenders to ever play the game), he's right up there as a contender for the best player in the draft.

    We sacrifice a measure of the control that Fusi gave us in favour of bullet-proofing our defence and transitioning back to a counter-attacking set up. Maldini, Cannavaro, Kohler and Almeyda are an ironclad defensive nucleus, particularly against a narrow-ish attack. Veron, Di Chiara and Cafu are their two-way foils - energetic contributors in the defensive phase, with a lavish range of qualities to lead our transitions and punish the opposition when we're in possession. Mancini arguably boasts the most influential single season of any attacker in the draft, leading Sampdoria to an improbable Serie A triumph in 1991-92, and as they were a predominantly counter-attacking team he'll be in famiiar terrain here. Our explosive, prolific forward pairing are equally adept on the counter, with both Chiesa and Batistuta capable of scoring from pretty much anywhere in the final third.

    Goalkeeper: Luca Marchegiani. Boasting both an impressive peak and top-notch longevity, Marchegiani was a first-choice GK for the entire decade in Serie A, first at Torino and later at Lazio.

    Defence: Our quality here speaks for itself. Kohler was the mainstay of a miserly Juve defence , while Cannavaro’s credentials as one of the all-time great Italian defenders speak for themselves. Maldini's combination of quality and longevity across the decade is simply unmatched.

    At wing back, Alberto Di Chiari will run our left flank. An industrious and creative converted winger, he impressed for an excellent Parma team in the same role. At RWB is the legendary Cafu, entering his athletic peak during this time-frame aged 27-30.

    Midfield: The voracious ball-winner Matias Almeyda reprises his Serie A winning partnership with Juan Sebastian Veron. Almeyda won a Guerin d'Oro for his performances with Lazio, and his positional nous, tireless running and strong tackling make him an ideal man for the job of shielding our defence against star-studded opposition. Beside him, Veron is one of the finest all-around midfielders in the pool, and probably possesses the best playmaking skills of that elite crop. We're not aiming to dominate possession here, but Veron will allow us to establish the requisite level of fluency and control here.

    Trequartista: Roberto Mancini takes centre stage here in the role that he revered sufficiently to write a Masters Thesis on it. If the increasingly pervasive Sacchi 4-4-2 orthodoxy led to him playing much of his career in a two-man attacking line, his skill-set and instincts mark him as a classic trequartista. A wonderfully creative talisman who book-ended a decade at the cutting edge of Serie A with a Scudetto win at either side, he was at his zenith during Sampdoria’s 1990-91 triumph. Here, as with Sampdoria, he’ll be at home playing on the counter, and he’ll be in his element supplying two prolific goalscorers.

    Attack: Batistuta’s credentials bear comparison with any forward in the draft: 151 goals in 243 Serie A games across the decade, all of them playing outside of the traditional powerhouse clubs for Fiorentina, with a high-water mark of 26 goals in 32 games in 1994-95. He’s in a familiar system here, and he’ll thrive off the creativity of Mancini and his dynamic, hard-running partner Enrico Chiesa, a consistently good performer across the decade who hit an astonishing peak in 1995-96 (playing with one Roberto Mancini at Sampdoria) of 22 goals in 27 Serie A appearances. A scorer of great goals as well as a great goalscorer, Chiesa had an incredible knack for the spectacular from long-range – videos to follow in the match thread.
  2. Feb 16, 2018
    #2

    2mufc0 Full Member

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  3. Feb 16, 2018
    #3

    Moby Dick who hates the homeless

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    Cafu vs Carboni. :lol:
  4. Feb 16, 2018
    #4

    harms Way Staff

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    Insightful as usual. I should've just put a green smile next to Baresi vs Batistuta head to head record, I guess :rolleyes:
  5. Feb 16, 2018
    #5

    Raees Legal Guardian of the Football forums

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    Jeez, this is alot more competitive than I was expecting.
  6. Feb 16, 2018
    #6

    harms Way Staff

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    Not much between the teams tactically. The lack of consistent threat on the left allows Thuram to tuck in, as expected (Fuser will take care of Di Chiara for most of the time).
    Davids will help Carboni with Cafu threat.

    I have a better attack and midfield, and also the stand out defender in the draft in Baresi (:drool:) and the stand out attacker/player in Ronaldo (:drool::drool:), which will see me win this.
  7. Feb 16, 2018
    #7

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    Was hoping Moby/Pat would be a bit more adventurous and went for someone like Singori, paired up with Batigol it would have been some partnership :drool:
  8. Feb 16, 2018
    #8

    harms Way Staff

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    Credit to @Gio

    [​IMG]

    FRANCO BARESI

    In a Serie A draft there's arguably no player who defined the era more than Franco Baresi - leader and captain of the great AC Milan side of the late 80s early 90s who was voted the Serie A Player of the Century in 2000

    With a robust and dominant midfield in front him (edited — now it's an even more impressive Davids-Rijkaard partnership) Baresi looks well set to hold the fort against the opposition attack.

    AC Milan 1977-97
    719 apps - 6 Serie A - 3 European Cup​

    It is hardly controversial to call Baresi the most complete – and perhaps even the best – defender of all time. The greatest attacking players have the ability to manufacture time, a combination of vision and first touch affording them vital fractions of a second to compose play. If they created time, Baresi did the opposite. Such was the Italian’s masterful reading of the game, he would be first to every through ball, snuffing out danger like a psychic fireman.

    “A lot of the time, he would know what the attacker was going to do before they knew themselves,” Ruud Gullit once said of his former teammate. There is no exaggeration there for effect. Baresi had a greater anticipation and understanding of attacking strategies than perhaps any other defender in the game’s history.

    Despite that defensive excellence, Baresi’s role was at least two-fold. Within seconds of winning back the ball, he would be looking forward. Next came either the clipped pass into feet, or the run forward out of defence. With his shirt untucked over inexplicably short shorts, Baresi played the part of playmaker with consummate ease.

    It would be foolish to think that Baresi was an effortlessly polished player, however, for you don’t survive and thrive in Serie A’s 1980s without being able to handle yourself. The word ‘hard’ has become increasingly synonymous with obvious displays of aggression, but Baresi’s toughness was more understated, a latent threat. In the Milan derby of 1989, Baresi played for over an hour with a broken arm after getting a kick from Jurgen Klinsmann, Milan’s captain only revealing the true extent of his pain after the final whistle. After keeping a clean sheet, of course.

    Not content with being one of the greatest defenders, Baresi’s name has also become a byword for loyalty, the ultimate one-club man. Milan may have become the greatest team in the world under his captaincy, but he twice stayed after relegation to help the Rossoneri rebuild. The second of those Serie B campaigns came after Baresi was a (non-playing) member of Italy’s World Cup-winning squad of 1982, with the defender named Milan captain at the age of 22. Fifteen years later, as Baresi retired, he had won five Serie A titles, three European Cups and nine other domestic honours. Black, white and red all over.

    Milan’s three greatest servants run like the aorta through the club’s modern history: Gianni Rivera, Franco Baresi, Paolo Maldini. Between them, these three players spanned a 49-year period between 1960 and 2009. Not only does that account for almost half the club’s lifespan, but it covers 38 of their 47 major trophies.

    If this trio are Milan’s lifeblood, there is no doubt who belongs in the centre spot on the podium. In the eyes of the Milanese, there is only one. ‘There is only one captain, Baresi,’ is the banner still passed across the San Siro’s Curva Sud. He was, is, and always will be Milan’s greatest: Il Capitano.



    And, again — in 9 Serie A games against Baresi Batigol scored 0 goals
  9. Feb 16, 2018
    #9

    Theon Full Member

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    That was mine.. and you’ll need to edit the second paragraph re the Juve partnership :D
  10. Feb 16, 2018
    #10

    idmanager Banned

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    After Maldini was picked, was half expecting a 4 man back line. Not sure who were on the bench though.
    Probably still lacking another defensive body in the middle. Especially with Davids and Rijkaard both capable of bombing forward along with Jerkoff.
    Can understand the logic behind 3 CBs against ADP and Ronaldo, but a 4 man GOAT defense can do the job too.

    Interesting to know how both managers perceive the middle battle to go.
  11. Feb 16, 2018
    #11

    Buchan has whacked the hammer to Roswell

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    Baresi and Ronaldo are the superlative players in their respective positions in this draft. It's tight but those selections shade it for me.
  12. Feb 16, 2018
    #12

    Physiocrat Full Member

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    Given the way the teams are set-up I think a lot depends on whether harms can break down that incredible back 3. To do that someone more creative than Djorkaeff would have been preferable. His front two would obviously be a threat but a deep defense mitigates Ronaldo's pace somewhat.

    On the break Pat Moby will be a threat especially thanks to Veron's passing.

    Undecided.
  13. Feb 16, 2018
    #13

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    Yeah agree with this, Kohler and Cannavaro can hold their own, i know Malidini is one of the faces of Serie A 90's but i don't think he's really what they needed.
  14. Feb 16, 2018
    #14

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    Would be a waste on the left tho.

    I'd have Kohler in the center with Cannavaro/Maldini each side.
  15. Feb 16, 2018
    #15

    idmanager Banned

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    I am not so sure about that.
    Cafu can still run the flank on his own and Maldini can be the tucking in centre back when required.

    Fuser is still present on that flank and although not a shiny name, still needs to be taken care of.
    Two birds with one shot.

    I don't mind the current formation of the defence, but when you have those four (not a bad shout for an all time draft final as well), adding 1 more in there is just wasting resources IMO, especially when you are facing a midfield with so much steel.
  16. Feb 16, 2018
    #16

    idmanager Banned

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    Anyways, won't be able to follow the rest of the match, so might as well vote now.

    Went with team Ronaldo as Mancini's team needed another body in the midfield, or either a like for like replacement for Fusi.

    For me its not just about putting a wall against the oppositions to best players upfront, but also backing it up with a second layer with a sound midfield defensively to cut off service which I think is lacking in comparison..

    Harms got it right with Baresi even though he didn't really need him.

    Good luck lads.
  17. Feb 16, 2018
    #17

    Gio 6 times Redcafe Draft Winner

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    Tempted to deploy Montero at LB @harms?
  18. Feb 16, 2018
    #18

    harms Way Staff

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    Yeah, I was obviously thinking of that, but in the end went with Carboni. Montero is a better player overall but I think that Carboni's skillset is a better match for Cafu
  19. Feb 16, 2018
    #19

    sincher "I will cry if Rooney leaves"

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    A difficult one this, to spaff on in rhyme
    I normally pick on the bits of a team that are pony
    But now that we've reached final time
    There's not much of that left, except maybe Carboni
    And Taffarel, obviously, he's a bit shite
    Di Chiara's not brilliant, Kohler overrated,
    There's a doubt about Diego Fuser on the right
    And Marchegiani was frequently slated
    For dodgy positioning, and crap distribution.
    Does Mancini have the class to outwit Baresi?
    If Rijkaard is tackled, will he seek retribution?
    Can Almeyda cover Veron, when he's lazy?
    Then there's Cannavaro, who's simply too small,
    And Davids on the left, providing no width at all.

    So, yeah, then, to summarize, both teams are awful
    The sheer lack of skill on the pitch makes me barf
    But to save the three managers from giving me a jawful
    You should know, I'm only having a laugh -
    Both sides are amazing, with brilliant attacks
    And solid as feck at the heart of defence
    Some guile in midfield, athletic full backs,
    It's going to be close this, it's making me tense.
    In fact, I am really not sure what will happen
    I'm struggling to imagine the story at all
    Maybe I'll just take a pause from this rappin'
    To revel at the sheer glory of football,
    It's a brilliant, funny and beautiful game
    That has enhanced my life, and for you all the same...
  20. Feb 16, 2018
    #20

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    I don't have much time to contribute until later, but as I don't like to see Batistuta eating shit (in a Serie A Draft no less!) I'll respond to this.

    Firstly, I'm pretty sure it was either 5 or 6 Serie A matches he didn't score in vs Baresi, not 9. Still way, way below his usual standards, but you have to bear in mind the calibre of teams they played for. The line ups from Batistuta's first match vs Milan:

    Goalkeeper Sebastiano Rossi
    Defenders Franco Baresi, Filippo Galli, Paolo Maldini, Mauro Tassotti
    Midfielders Frank Rijkaard, Demetrio Albertini, Roberto Donadoni
    Strikers Ruud Gullit, Aldo Serena, Marco van Basten

    Goalkeeper Alessandro Mannini
    Defenders Stefano Carobbi, Mario Faccenda, Massimiliamo Fiondella †, Stefano Pioli
    Midfielders Dunga, Pietro Maiellaro, Mazinho, Stefano Salvatori †
    Strikers Gabriel Batistuta, Massimo Orlando

    Plonk Batistuta into the Milan lineup and Baresi into Fiorentina alongside the likes of Fiondella instead of Maldini and their head to head record might be a bit different. As Coppa Italia matche are also eligible for discussion in this draft, he was hardly a blunt instrument against Baresi anyway, turning him inside out for his first goal here (at 1:15) and hammering home a brilliant second to win the match against a typically all-star Milan team:



    In any case, if Batistuta's record against Baresi is worth highlighting then so is Chiesa's, who scored 4 goals in 4 league games against Baresi. With Mancini pulling the strings behind him, they gave a Baresi-led Milan defence a pasting here:

  21. Feb 16, 2018
    #21

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    Along with Cafu's very favourable assignment vs Carboni, that's the aspect of the match that's tiltedmost in our favour. I said it in harms' last match, but I don't really like Djorkaeff in that orchestrator role. Too inconsistent, too prone to drifting out of matches. Basically more of an impact player than a guy who would really control matches, particuarly against a defence as strong as ours, with a Guerin d'Oro winning shield like Almeyda in front of them. Djorkaeff might carry more name value, but our No. 10 Mancini was the far more influential Serie A performer.

    Veron, as ever, tends to become more liability than asset as a draft progresses, but in a 90s Serie A draft he's proven himself to be capable of going toe to toe with the likes of Davids and more than holding his own. He's the most creative CM in the pitch here.
  22. Feb 16, 2018
    #22

    harms Way Staff

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    Not sure why Djorkaeff is questioned — I never asked for him to play like Zidane. Ronaldo played with Djorkaeff and thrived off him — and Ronaldo in his Serie A form does not require a true #10 anyway. Del Piero was also very creative. I would agree if it was Djorkaeff behind Batistuta and Chiesa — different players that are more reliant on service, but not behind Ronaldo and Del Piero.
  23. Feb 16, 2018
    #23

    sincher "I will cry if Rooney leaves"

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    The first half was cagey, the defences superior;
    Less like watching Brazil, more like watching Cattermole,
    But just as it couldn't get any drearier
    Veron turned and spinned a fine ball into Batigol
    Who held off Ferrara, and hammered it in
    One nil to the Mustardmen, Selfies in shock
    Maybe they thought that Baresi would fit in
    But he just seemed pissed off at Ferrara, the cock.
    So much for the 'psychic fireman', and maybe
    He wasn't in fact descended from gods,
    And now he was wasting time bawling, the baby,
    And the Mustards were ahead, against all the odds;
    But plenty of time in the match left to run
    And we all know Ronaldo can score goals for fun.

    And that's exactly what happened, not ten minutes later
    The goal was not too dissimilar to this;
    Big Ron was as cool as a refridgerator,
    A couple of stepovers, simple as piss,
    And he left Marchegiani sat down on his arse,
    And finished it simply - amazing control, though!
    The way he latched on to that wonderful pass
    (Played by Frankie Rijkaard, letting his soul glow).
    So coming to half time, the honours were even,
    And the Selfies were showing excellent skill,
    But come on now Mustardmen, don't stop believin'
    Your journey could end with victory still -
    Those passes from Veron are just like a laser,
    And surely eventually they'll find Chiesa.
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2018
  24. Feb 16, 2018
    #24

    Physiocrat Full Member

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    @Pat_Mustard That Fiorentina side you posted was terrible. Batigol was really in a poor side (much better when Rui Costa appeared though)
  25. Feb 16, 2018
    #25

    Physiocrat Full Member

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    My issue with Djorkaeff is that against a deep defence with three incredible CBs you need someone more consistently creative even with Del Piero
  26. Feb 16, 2018
    #26

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    I said as much in your last match, but I agree that Del Piero and Ronaldo can create plenty by themselves without first-rate service. I just don't see Djorkaeff offering that much here, and if Batistuta is fair game for criticism then Djorkaeff should hardly be immune to it given their relative credentials in Serie A.

    I'd disagree to an extent with Batistuta and Chiesa needing a particularly great level of service. Both of them, Batistuta in particular, were consistent scorers across the decade even when playing in some underwhelming teams relative to the likes of Del Piero's Juve. Chiesa actually scored at a higher rate than Del Piero, and a quick look at these videos (anyone who is unfamiliar with him should give them a watch), will show that he's capable of scoring from pretty much anywhere in the final third:




    He produced his career-best form with Mancini as his chief creator, and with Veron in or team and the penetration of Cafu down our right flank he'll hardly be short of service here anyway.
  27. Feb 16, 2018
    #27

    harms Way Staff

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    I meant stylistically — and it wasn't a criticism of your team since you not only have Mancini, but also Veron, that's a brilliant creative unit; but they were strikers first while both Del Piero and Ronaldo regularly dropped much deeper
  28. Feb 16, 2018
    #28

    Moby Dick who hates the homeless

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    A bit annoying when Ronaldo is considered as the one starting moves and the one finishing them as well at the same time. Good as he was he didn't play both roles at the same time - the 98 and 02 world cups displaying the distinction perfectly. He won't be taking part in the creative unit and then isolating defenders or going 1v1 with keepers at the same time.
  29. Feb 16, 2018
    #29

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    Aye, they definitely had some better teams as the decade progressed, with Rui Costa providing consistently brilliant service of course, and then that short-lived but awesome Batistuta/Rui Costa/Edmundo frontline.
  30. Feb 16, 2018
    #30

    antohan gets aroused by tagline boobs

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    Odd as it may sound, I'm not sure either team got better wirh their upgrades. In terms of individual quality absolutely, but functionally it's unconvincing.

    By replacing Fusi with Cannavaro you get a better overall defender, but not the ability to switch from back three to two and a DM ahead. I this game in particular I reckon that was particularly valuable. Almeyda simply has too much on his plate.

    At the other end, while I agree with Carboni ahead of Montero at LB, I think Ferrara should have been benched, not Paolo. Think about it isolated from this game: who does Baresi replace in a Ferrara-Montero partnership? Not Montero. Now look at that backline with Thuram at the other end, doesn't Montero-Baresi-Thuram look a better trio? Both Baresi and Ferrara were defensive leaders, and here you unequivocally want Baresi leading, which isn't that straightforward with him having to mind Carboni's back while Ferrara is the central presence when that defence turns into a 3 or 5 under pressure. If you have Baresi, he is the one you want doing that job.
  31. Feb 16, 2018
    #31

    harms Way Staff

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    That's an odd comment, he did exactly that for Inter in 1997/98.
  32. Feb 16, 2018
    #32

    Moby Dick who hates the homeless

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    Insightful as usual.
  33. Feb 16, 2018
    #33

    harms Way Staff

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    Yeah, can't say that I haven't thought of that. Went with the personal favourite in the end, giving that neither he nor Baresi were limited in their respective roles, but Montero is a better tactical fit.
    I don't know what to say here, having rewatched tons of footage from that season (this draft was worth it for this alone), I know that you're wrong. Inter had only him and Djorkaeff as their constant creative threats, with Recoba shining sporadically and the rest of the team being awfully unimaginative. Ronaldo dropped in midfield, carried the ball forward, scored an assisted.
  34. Feb 16, 2018
    #34

    Edgar Allan Pillow Was AFC, likes them hypoallergenic - no feathers Scouse Lover

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    Had it been a attacking LB, Montero would be better...but Carboni is a very defensive fullback and not facing any winger, he doesn't need cover. In that case, it's better to have two ball playing CBs so either can step out whilst other marshals the defensive line. I expect Baresi to be operating slightly ahead of the rest of trio snuffing out attacks.
  35. Feb 16, 2018
    #35

    Moby Dick who hates the homeless

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    Can you show gifs of him doing what you've exactly written in your last sentence in one single move.
  36. Feb 16, 2018
    #36

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    Aye, I take your point (reluctantly) as Ronaldo was so uniquely great at surging forward from deep areas, but I just didn't want people getting the idea that either Batistuta or Chiesa were poachers, when they were both so capable of picking the ball up well outside the area and conjuring a goal out of nowhere.


    Aye, we had a mammoth discussion about that very issue via PM. Fusi did offer an excellent balance and was particularly important in matches where we were looking to take the initiatve and play on the front foot. Marginally less so in a counter-attacking system, but we do lose some balance still. We just really needed another top class defender vs a Ronaldo-led attack though, and Maldini was the best of the lot. Thinking about it we really should have went for Rijkaard instead of Baresi in that fecking lamb reinforcement round, and now we end up facing both :mad:
  37. Feb 16, 2018
    #37

    harms Way Staff

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    ?
  38. Feb 16, 2018
    #38

    Moby Dick who hates the homeless

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    What a player. :drool:

    That's not what you wrote though.
  39. Feb 16, 2018
    #39

    harms Way Staff

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    Not sure what more do you want. For him to score and assist in a single move? He did those kind of runs regularly, that ended with him shooting or giving a decisive pass (like Djorkaeff's goal against Juventus)
  40. Feb 16, 2018
    #40

    Edgar Allan Pillow Was AFC, likes them hypoallergenic - no feathers Scouse Lover

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    Not all those who wander are lost!
    Didn't help anyway. I was thinking you'd pick on Nedved and exploit Carboni fully. A Nedved/Cafu flank would have tilted this more in our favour.