Serie A 90's Draft QF - EAP vs harms

Discussion in 'Draft Games Forum' started by 2mufc0, Feb 1, 2018.

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Who would win in the following draft game with all players at their Serie A 90's peak?

Poll closed Feb 2, 2018.
  1. Team EAP

    20.0%
  2. Team harms

    80.0%
  1. Feb 1, 2018
    #1

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    PLEASE READ BEFORE VOTING: voting should be based on player performances in Serie A/Coppa Italia from the 90/91 season to 99/00. Performances outside this timeframe or other competitions do not count.


    TEAM EAP
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    VS

    TEAM HARMS

    [​IMG]

    EAP TACTICS


    DEFENCE:

    + Giovanni Galli a solid, efficient keeper, quick on his feet with good distribution skills mans the goal.
    + The defensive core of Alessandro Nesta and Jurgen Kohler is one of the strongest in this draft.
    + They are well flanked by Mauro Tassotti and Gianluca Pessotto, integral to the dominant defensive lines in Milan and Juventus respectively.

    It is a super strong backline with stars who are proven in great teams and capable of hold their own against any attack.

    MIDFIELD:

    + Massimo Ambrosini provides shields the defence with his tireless workrate and ball winning abilities.
    + He is supported by Alberigo Evani another tireless box-to-box Left Centrocampista who flexible to play left back.

    Evani will play a slightly defensive role providing cover to Pessotto and Ambrosini and lending support to the backline. He will only move up when we have possession.

    +Dejan Stankovic "Il Dragone" ("The Dragon") will play a Centre/Right Midfield Playmaker, a flexible role he played well for Lazio at turn of the century. Capable of drifting wide and moving to flanks or drifting in to add numbers to midfield, his intelligence, workrate and movement will be hard to handle for my opponent.

    + Roberto Donadoni, "the best Italian player of the 1990s - Michel Platini" will look romp along the left flank with Pessotto behind him. If harms plays Fuser as wingback, this will be a gross mismatch as Pessotto-Donadoni will own the flank.

    ATTACK:

    + Tomas Brolin plays his favorite role free roaming second striker. Versatile to operate as a striker or inside forward on both flanks and/or to drop back as a playmaker creating for his teammates, he will be at his world class peak here. His workrate and freedom of movement will be hard to defend against and with Stankovic behind him, there will be numerous opportunities to score.

    + Marco van Basten leads the line. His personal Serie A best of 25 goals in 31 games (1991-92) and 13 goals in 15 games (1992-93) was integral in Milan having a unbeaten run of incredible 58 games! Absolutely lethal during his peak above, he'll have Brolin, Stankovic and Donadoni capable of feeding him chances all through the match.

    HARMS TACTICS

    Thoughts on the game:
    Watertight defence and unstoppable attack, what else there is to say?

    Talking points about Edgar's team:
    Questionable midfield:
    18-22 y.o. Ambrosini — is he good enough? I'm not sure. I don't even know if I rate peak Ambrosini, let alone a much younger version of him
    20-21 y.o. Stankovic — another young talent, who spent half of his 2nd season on Lazio's bench — is he good enough?

    Weak goalie:
    32 y.o. Giovanni Galli — written off by AC Milan, a once great keeper spends his 90's in midtable mediocrity

    Ronaldo vs Nesta:

    Bits about my team:
    • Del Piero and Ronaldo with Djorkaeff in behind is a simply amazing attacking unit that even Edgar's center backs won't be able to stop
    • Proven partnerships all over the pitch — Ferrara-Montero; Ronaldo-Djorkaeff; Fuser-Thuram
    • Carboni will play more conservatively in this game, seeing as Edgar's biggest weapon is his right flank; Seedorf and Montero, with their experience on the left, will help him out defensively, Seedorf and Del Piero — offensively
    • Thuram tucking in and Ferrara centrally will try to limit van Basten — I'm not naive to thing that they, or anybody else for that matter, are capable of nullifying him, but they'll do enough to give me a good chance of outscoring my opponent
    Seedorf will probably be a talking point — seeing as he is one of the flashiest names around. At least tactically here's an example of Seedorf playing exactly like I need him to (hence the arrow), against a much, much better midield:


    PLAYER PROFILES
    (Note — the time scopes and awards are only from the relevant seasons, from 90/91 to 99/00; so, for example, only 3 out of Ferrara's 7 Serie A titles would be shown. I also discarded all European trophies although there were many).
    GK — Cláudio Taffarel. Parma 1990-93, Reggiana 93/94
    Brazil's best ever keeper, he was good enough for Parma to give one out of three foreign slots to a goalkeeper. In 90/91 he kept 19 clean sheets in 34 games and was voted the world's 3rd best goalkeeper by IFFHS in 1991.
    IFFHS World's Best Goalkeeper: Bronze ball 1991, 1994
    RCB — Lilian Thuram. Parma 1996-00.
    The best ever in his position — and right in the middle of his peak. His enormous success with France coincided with his spell at Parma, where he won Coppa Italia, UEFA Cup and proved himself as one of the greatest defenders of his time.
    Coppa Italia 1998/99
    Supercoppa Italiana 1999
    French Player of the year 1997
    Guerin D'Oro (Best player in Serie A) 1997
    ESM Team of the year 1998/99
    Ballon D'Or — 7th place, 1998
    CB — Ciro Ferrara. Napoli 1990-94, Juventus 1994-00
    One of the best defenders in the draft, tough as nails yet smart and elegant, he, alongside his partner in crime (sometimes literally) Paolo Montero was the foundation of the great Juventus team of the late 90's. In the words of Ryan Giggs, they were "...the toughest defenders [he] played against".
    Serie A 1994/95, 96/97, 97/98
    Supercoppa Italiana 1990, 95, 97
    Coppa Italia 1994/95
    ESM Team of the year 1996/97
    CB — Paolo Montero. Atlanta 1992-96, Juventus 1996-00
    Strong in the air, the timing of both his tackles and his fouls is invariably exquisite. His sense of positioning is what you would expect from a player for whom defending is, in this case quite literally, second nature. But he is outstanding at what he does for the same reason all people are who are outstanding at what they do. His passion for the job. He has the heart and soul of a man for whom the entire meaning of life is contained in the principle of 'no pasarán' - they shall not pass.
    Serie A 96/97, 97/98
    Supercoppa Italiana 97
    LB — Amedeo Carboni. Roma 1990-97
    Hardworking and athletic, Carboni was a brilliant left back, equally capable of defending and supporting an attack. He managed to earn 18 caps for his country despite having to fight for a place with the likes of Maldini and Benarrivo — and he when we look at his time in Serie A, we see a true Roman legend, ever-present in his 7 seasons apart from one long-term injury.
    Coppa Italia 1990/91
    CM — Clarence Seedorf. Sampdoria 1995-96, Inter 1999-2000
    Having spend only 1,5 seasons in Serie A of the 90's, you can argue that Seedorf's legacy isn't that big; but what counts here is the level of his performances — and they were, as it is usually with him, brilliant. Without a doubt the best midfielder on the pitch (not that the competition is very challenging), will make a bigger post about him in the thread.
    Surprisingly, there aren't any — his 1,5 seasons in Serie A were squashed between his spells in Ajax and Real (he won CL with both, being a key performer as well). So take a look at the video that I've made to support my pick
    CM — Wim Jonk. Inter 1993-95
    A defensive midfielder in the mould of Carrick/Busquets, he was known for his spatial awareness and reading of the game, even though he was a combative and hard-working player. It's not surprising that he now leads Cruyff football institute, as his understanding of the defending itself is very much alike Cruyff's — it's all about the space. Had a cracking shot on him too.
    Sadly, only UEFA Cup 1994, which doesn't count here
    AM — Yuri Djorkaeff. Inter 1996-99
    One of my old favorites, he was nicknamed "The Snake" by Arsene Wenger (you never knew when he would strike). A very complete attacking midfielder — he was a great dribbler, possessed fantastic vision and was always going with something unexpected. His biggest moment at Inter was, of course, his glorious overhead goal against Roma, but the main reason why I picked him was because of his natural chemistry with Ronaldo.
    Pirata d'Oro (Internazionale Player Of The Year): 1997
    FIFA XI 1997
    Ballon D’Or 9th — 1996; 11th — 1997
    Serie A runner up 1997/98
    RM — Diego Fuser. Fiorentina 1990-91, AC Milan 1991-92, Lazio 1992-98, Parma 1998-00
    Fuser was a quick, hard-working, and energetic player, with good technique, and crossing ability, who excelled at making offensive runs down the right flank and assisting strikers with accurate crosses. A tenacious, and physically strong winger, he also possessed notable stamina, a powerful shot from distance, and was accurate from set-pieces. He's reunited with Thuram — they formed a great partnership on the right playing for Parma in the late 90's.
    Serie A 1991/92
    Coppa Italia 1997/1998, 98/99
    Supercoppa Italiana 1999
    LF — Alessandro Del Piero. Juventus 1993-00
    Unbelievable player, unbelievable talent. If you're spending your time reading some football forum, you know all about him already.
    Serie A 1994/95, 96/97, 97/98
    Supercoppa Italiana 1995, 97
    Coppa Italia 1994/95
    ESM Team of the year 1995/96, 96/97, 97/98
    Serie A Italian footballer of the year 1998
    Serie A-Top assist provider 1999/00
    Ballon D'Or — 4th in 1995 and 1996
    All-time leading scorer for Juventus
    All-time appearances for Juventus
    Italian player with the most seasons with 10 goals or more (17 seasons)
    ST — Luís Ronaldo. Inter 1997-00
    The best player in the draft, and in his 1997/98 form a strong contender for the greatest of all time striker position. Absolutely devastating at his best (and he is at his best).
    Ballon D’Or 1997
    Ballon D’Or 3rd — 1998;
    FIFA World player of the year 1997 (silver in 1998)
    Onze D’Or 1997
    Bravo award 1997
    Serie A Footballer of the year 1997/98
    Serie A Foreign footballer of the year 1997/98
    FIFA XI 1997, 1998
    Pirata d'Oro (Internazionale Player Of The Year) 1998
    Serie A Player of the decade 1997-2007
    Serie A runner up 1997/98
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  2. Feb 1, 2018
    #2

    2mufc0 Full Member

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  3. Feb 1, 2018
    #3

    harms Way Staff

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    Thanks for setting this up @2mufc0
    Good luck @Edgar Allan Pillow — voted for myself.

    Interesting that you moved Donadoni to the left — away from Carboni to Thuram — Fuser flank, also breaking up your Donadoni - Tassotti link.
  4. Feb 1, 2018
    #4

    oneniltothearsenal Arse Lover Scout

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    Pillow should have played Evani where Donadoni is, Donadoni where Stankovic is and Stankovic where Evani is.

    Donadoni best at RM and Evani at LM, no reason to rotate them both out of position imo.
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  5. Feb 1, 2018
    #5

    harms Way Staff

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    I think he just wanted to do something different, but somehow ended up playing 2 guys out of position (plus my "weakest", not that he is weak, defender is now facing young Stankovic and not peak Donadoni)
  6. Feb 1, 2018
    #6

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    @Edgar Allan Pillow why would you move Donadoni on the left, whist your sole reason for picking Tassotti that early was with him in mind on that right wing? Makes no sense :confused:

    Will see how discussion goes, but from first sight I'm 100% with @oneniltothearsenal on your midfield. Would look much better.

    You need to overload that right flank - it's where your strength is and your left with Pessotto and Evani would be just fine.
  7. Feb 1, 2018
    #7

    harms Way Staff

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    Damn this only domestic rule, Ronaldo vs Nesta and Del Piero vs Kohler are European classics :drool:
  8. Feb 1, 2018
    #8

    harms Way Staff

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    Overall it's as I expected — 2 teams with strong defence and attack and not so impressive midfield, but Edgar's strange decision makes me a favorite in the midfield battle as well. I feel that I have a definite edge attacking-wise and defensively it's very close. Individually Edgar's defence is outstanding, but Montero is elevated by the familiar partner in Ferrara, which pretty much closes the gap (Thuram, Nesta, Kohler and Ferrara and stand out defenders not only in this game, but in the whole 90's).
  9. Feb 1, 2018
    #9

    Edgar Allan Pillow Was AFC, likes them hypoallergenic - no feathers Scouse Lover

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  10. Feb 1, 2018
    #10

    Edgar Allan Pillow Was AFC, likes them hypoallergenic - no feathers Scouse Lover

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    :lol:

    Good luck!
  11. Feb 1, 2018
    #11

    harms Way Staff

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    Just wanted to highlight Djorkaeff a bit more.
    Look how deep he is playing and how involved he is in the game. Also some nice interplay between him and Ronaldo, for example at 6:36:


    And a classic goal. Djorkaeff starts the attack, Ronaldo dribbles past few defenders and finds Djorkaeff at the far post:
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  12. Feb 1, 2018
    #12

    Edgar Allan Pillow Was AFC, likes them hypoallergenic - no feathers Scouse Lover

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    Agree. I didn't expect harms to fully surrender his left flank to me. But he seems to have done so. Changed back to normal formation. One of the advantages of having a versatile and flexible team!

    Carboni/Seedorf offers next to nothing offensively in that flank. Donadoni is better than Carboni and will be able to dominate that wing. Will also pull Montero out of position trying to cover opening spaces for my attackers.
  13. Feb 1, 2018
    #13

    harms Way Staff

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    @Edgar Allan Pillow can you vote for yourself and not for me, please? Enough with the childish tricks :rolleyes:
  14. Feb 1, 2018
    #14

    harms Way Staff

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    It's b.s. and you know it.
    Look how often he pops out on the left, dribbling past the opponents and crossing the ball.
    Over the course of a season:


    In one game:
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  15. Feb 1, 2018
    #15

    Edgar Allan Pillow Was AFC, likes them hypoallergenic - no feathers Scouse Lover

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    Here's a 2 min sample of Evani in 90s Serie A:

    Arrives late in the box, has a sweet left peg and bam! Goal!

  16. Feb 1, 2018
    #16

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    Done.
  17. Feb 1, 2018
    #17

    Edgar Allan Pillow Was AFC, likes them hypoallergenic - no feathers Scouse Lover

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    There is popping up and there is providing width. With Carboni being a defensive fullback if you expect Seedorf to be "popping up wide" you're just playing into Stankovic's hands.
  18. Feb 1, 2018
    #18

    Edgar Allan Pillow Was AFC, likes them hypoallergenic - no feathers Scouse Lover

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    :lol: ofc
  19. Feb 1, 2018
    #19

    harms Way Staff

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    You know you're good when your all goals compilation lasts 1:46 :lol:

    He was a prolific goalscorer, I won't deny it
    [​IMG]
  20. Feb 1, 2018
    #20

    Edgar Allan Pillow Was AFC, likes them hypoallergenic - no feathers Scouse Lover

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    Seriously? Such irrelevant stats! He's not my primary goalscorer. It was just an example of what he offers offensively from the middle.

    Donadoni will stretch your defence, Stankovic will exploit gaps and Mvb/Brolin will score.
  21. Feb 1, 2018
    #21

    Edgar Allan Pillow Was AFC, likes them hypoallergenic - no feathers Scouse Lover

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    Anyway I just woke up. Have to take do out for a walk and get to work.

    Will 'pop up' again in couple of hrs.

    GG, harms!
  22. Feb 1, 2018
    #22

    Arbitrium Taking a year off

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    @harms

    Excellent team and excellent use of ferrara, and why you were allowed both Del Piero and Ronaldo in a peak Serie A draft is beyond me.
  23. Feb 1, 2018
    #23

    idmanager Full Member

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    Donadoni on the left was a super feck up.

    Donadoni+Tassotti on the right against Carboni is a good path to goal. Tassotti especially not usually given the due credit for his support in attack.

    Ronaldo+ADP vs Nesta and Kohler is upto voter's choice.
    On their day, either set can shut or kill the other.

    Its a good game to play Pessotto a little tucked in along with Nesta and Kohler for additional support against Ronaldo and ADP.
    He is not getting any joy going ahead anyways.

    Have no clue how to judge those midfielders though.
  24. Feb 1, 2018
    #24

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    Two even teams for me, both have fantastic attackers and defenders. Sitting on the fence at the moment, depends on who sells their midfield and other players better will decide it for me. Will keep a close eye on discussions.
  25. Feb 1, 2018
    #25

    antohan gets aroused by tagline boobs

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    You spelt it out and he still goes and does something else. Weird.
  26. Feb 1, 2018
    #26

    harms Way Staff

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    I was to lazy to do a proper compilation, but Jonk was surprisingly good for Inter in those few games that I've checked. While Bergkamp was a misfit to the Italian football, Jonk's positional awareness and ball-retention skills were very useful in Serie A.

    It's hard to rate a central midfielder from highlights, but he was very good in this game, for example, jumping into tackles and being a proper midfielder against the likes of Boban, Albertini and at times Savicevic when he was dropping deeper. Good game overall, quite interesting, so if you have enough free time you can watch it in full. He scored a winner and assisted the first goal from a corner in that game too, so he wasn't a limited destroyer — and a limited player won't get 49 caps for Netherlands in the 90's.
  27. Feb 1, 2018
    #27

    Edgar Allan Pillow Was AFC, likes them hypoallergenic - no feathers Scouse Lover

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    Evani is a hard-working player who has played left back early in his career andthen became an all round midfielder excelling along the left side if the pitch. He'll provide support too.

    I have an edge here being both Evani and Stankovic are comfortable in middle and out wide. Both have played as wingers for their teams. Their flexibility will be an added advantage as they'll pull people out if position and overload the flank when we have the ball. I also rate Stankovic ahead of Jonk so that should help in midfield superiority.
  28. Feb 1, 2018
    #28

    harms Way Staff

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    And Seedorf isn't?

    By the way, Jonk was at his peak, while Stankovic started 22 out of 34 games in 1998/99 and laughable 12 times out of 34 in 1999/00
  29. Feb 1, 2018
    #29

    harms Way Staff

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    Dejan Stankovic in the 90's

    [​IMG]

    I guess it's enough to judge him, right, @Moby ?:angel:
  30. Feb 1, 2018
    #30

    harms Way Staff

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    @idmanager @2mufc0
    since you're on the edge regarding midfielders.

    Seedorf started 3 games less in 1999/00 than Stankovic in his best (1998/99) season, despite the fact that he joined Inter mid season!
    And, of course, there are 32 games (28 starts) for Sampdoria in 1995/96 and how they compare to Stankovic's 1999/00.
  31. Feb 1, 2018
    #31

    antohan gets aroused by tagline boobs

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    Seedorf is getting punished unduly here. The guy won a CL, went to Samp and had a tremendous season. Moved to Real, won another CL, and moved to Inter where @harms has shown how good his half season before the cut is.

    He is in tip top physical condition and already tested at the highest level. Best CM on the pitch without a shadow of a doubt. If he were facing 90s Serie A royalty you would think twice, but that's not the case as he faces a midfield that also peaked outside the decade.

    Edit: actually started writing this before seeing the posts above. Yes, that's it in a nutshell.
  32. Feb 1, 2018
    #32

    harms Way Staff

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    Cheers. It's nice to see Ferrara getting some love — he deserves it, especially in this draft.
  33. Feb 1, 2018
    #33

    harms Way Staff

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    Not really. I know we're not using them but while discussing hypotheticals it's also useful to look at the real games where the said players featured against one another. Del Piero and Kohler obviously haven't played against each other in Italy, since both were playing for the same team, but look at Juventus — Borussia games of 1995 and 1997... Same with Ronaldo — Nesta and the UEFA Cup final (worst moment of Nesta's career, by his admission), although they have 2 Serie A games where they faced each other and, unsurprisingly, Ronaldo showed that even Nesta isn't good enough to stop him:
    (my favorite moment, skips past Nesta like he's some non-league defender)
  34. Feb 1, 2018
    #34

    Arbitrium Taking a year off

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    To be fair, he defends like one there. Horrible situation management.
  35. Feb 1, 2018
    #35

    Edgar Allan Pillow Was AFC, likes them hypoallergenic - no feathers Scouse Lover

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    Thought we'd not use non league examples. I got called for it last draft.
  36. Feb 1, 2018
    #36

    idmanager Full Member

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    Nesta is facing Del Piero and Ronaldo is facing Kohler.

    Of course, they are not static.

    I am tired of reading even Nesta was not good enough to stop Ronaldo though.
    Its easy to point out the goals he scored but there will be numerous tackles and duels Nesta would have won too.
    And there will be numerous lower tier defenders Ronaldo failed to score against.
    Doesn't make him their bitch.

    That GIF for example clearly shows its a feck up. You didn't have to be R9 to beat a moment of lapse from Nesta there.
  37. Feb 1, 2018
    #37

    Edgar Allan Pillow Was AFC, likes them hypoallergenic - no feathers Scouse Lover

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    Punished? How? All I questioned was the wide capabilities of a Seedorf Carboni flank. A defensive full back and a DM providing width!

    Harms is the one talking about peaks, when Seedorf and Stankovic are pretty much the same. Have no idea why he brings that up.
  38. Feb 1, 2018
    #38

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    Aye, after getting mildly perturbed at Cannavaro getting dragged into the Seedorf debate on the main thread, Seedorf actually ends up being quite comfortably the best CM on the pitch here imo :lol:. That's mostly on the basis of his Sampdoria season as he was notoriously inconsistent at Inter from memory (and I had a gander on an Inter forum out of interest and the consensus was the same). The competition isn't especially stiff though, as I didn't rate Jonk highly, Stankovic was a promising talent but barely established, and I wasn't a big fan of peak Ambrosini much less this young version.

    EDIT: Edgar has perfomed ome serious surgery on that defence and it now looks fantastic, and for Harms Del Piero/Ronaldo is an incredible attack.
  39. Feb 1, 2018
    #39

    idmanager Full Member

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    Agreed. Huge disservice to Nesta to use examples like that to say R9 would always bring that out of him.

    No point when Ronaldo against any defender going only one way logic is bought up.
  40. Feb 1, 2018
    #40

    harms Way Staff

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    This gif isn't the only example.

    The point is, a good defender will always win more tackles, but if he'll lose one or two and it'll be a goal. It's not about the draft, it's how it is in real life — even Messi will fail to beat defender every time but if he'll do it once or twice per game, he'll win it. It's unfair towards the defenders, but it's how it is (that's why attackers get much more credit)