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Serie A 90's Draft Round 1 - 2mufc0/Invictus vs. Raees

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by green_smiley, Jan 26, 2018.

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Who would win in the following draft game with all players at their Serie A 90's peak?

Poll closed Jan 27, 2018.
  1. Team 2mufc0/Invictus

    60.0%
  2. Team Raees

    40.0%
  1. Jan 26, 2018
    #1

    green_smiley :lol:

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    PLEASE READ BEFORE VOTING: voting should be based on player performances in Serie A/Coppa Italia from the 90/91 season to 99/00. Performances outside this timeframe or other competitions do not count.

    TEAM 2mufc0/Invictus

    [​IMG]

    VS

    TEAM Raees

    [​IMG]

    2MUFC0/INVICTUS TACTICS

    Player Profiles


    Standing 6’ 2 (1.88m), and supremely athletic – particularly for the era in which he played – Tacconi cut an imposing figure for opposing strikers, often panicking them into making mistakes which then allowed him to make comfortable saves. He would concede 29 goals in his first season, winning the Scudetto, but it would be in European action where he truly made the difference, starting a trend that would continue throughout his time with the club. More info here.

    Strong, quick athletic fullback able to defend and attack, Serie A peak with Inter in 1996-97 ESM team of the year, consistently one of the better right backs during his time in Serie A.

    Nicknamed lo Zar, Vierchowod was a tenacious and physical left-footed centre-back, who possessed great pace; regarded as one of Italy's best ever defenders, during his career, he was considered one of the fastest defenders in the world, and one of the toughest Serie A defenders of the 1980s and the 1990s, due to his immense strength, tight marking of opponents, and hard tackling style of play. More here.

    Tudor was considered one of Croatia's best defenders in the period between the late 1990s and mid-2000s. Tudor was a large, hard-working, strong and imposing defender who excelled in the air, making him a dangerous goal threat during set pieces. He was also a tight man-marker and a hard tackling defender, with great tactical intelligence. More here

    Complimenting Angloma we have Robert Jarni known for his work up and down the flank, like Angloma able to man the flank in attack aswell as defence.

    Energetic, strong and technical midfielder who played for Sampdoria in the mid 90's. Karembeu had taken to Serie A with aplomb, becoming one of the league’s most accomplished players. “I had never seen anyone with a greater work capacity,” admitted Eriksson in his 2013 book Sven: My Story. “When he ran intervals in training, nobody could keep up.” As intimidated as they were by his athletic prowess, however, Karembeu ingratiated himself immediately, and not just because of his commensurate technical gifts. Respectful and learned, it was no surprise when his teammates donned t-shirts protesting the French government’s nuclear testing on New Caledonian territory in 1995. On and off the field, he became one of the team’s most important references. More here.

    A versatile and well-rounded midfielder, De Napoli was usually deployed as either a central or defensive, where he was capable of both supporting his more creative teammates defensively, and of functioning as a deep-lying playmaker after winning back possession, courtesy of his range of passing, and ability to build plays and create chances from midfield with long balls; he was also deployed on the wing on occasion. A quick, hard-working, and tenacious player, with good technique, he was known in particular for his notable stamina, as well as his excellent man-marking ability, which endowed him with the ability to break down the opposition's play, and subsequently transition the ball from defence to attack; he also possessed a powerful and accurate shot from distance, and was known for his ability to make attacking runs and charge forward with the ball from deeper areas of the pitch. His tenacity and combative playing style earned him the nickname "Rambo" from the Napoli fans throughout his career. In addition to his playing ability, he was also known for his correct behaviour on the pitch, and for his ability to lead his teammates by example. More here .

    Nicknamed Zorro, Boban was a talented and creative yet tenacious player, known for his use of feints to beat opponents. He was gifted with excellent vision, passing range, dribbling skills, technical ability, and an eye for the final ball; he mixed these attributes with a unique tactical versatility and intelligence, which enabled him to be deployed in several midfield and offensive positions throughout his career. In addition to his preferred playmaking role behind the forwards as an attacking midfielder, he was also capable of playing on the wing, as a central midfielder, or even as a supporting striker, due to his powerful and accurate bending shots from distance; he was also effective from set-pieces. Throughout his career, he also became known for his vocal presence, determination and aggression on the pitch, as well as his strong character. More here.

    The man doesn't need any introduction, one of the best players in the draft and most consider his best club football was played at Juve. The heart of the team. Wiki page.

    Ravanelli was a quick, dynamic, physically strong, and hardworking left-footed striker, with notable temperament, who was known for his eye for goal, as well as his energy and defensive contribution off the ball, which often saw him drop back into deeper possessions in order to help his team win back possession. Although he was initially not the most naturally talented or skilful player, he was able to improve his technique and movement significantly during his time with Juventus, where he established himself as a top striker. A prolific goalscorer, who was good in the air, and who possessed a powerful and accurate shot, in addition to his ability to score goals, Ravanelli was also capable of playing off of his team-mates, due to his link-up play, which, combined with his other skills, made him a complete forward; this also enabled him to play in a supporting role, as a second striker or even as a winger, positions in which he often utilised his ability in the air to get on the end of high balls and create chances for other strikers by providing them with headed assists from knockdowns.

    A large and prolific striker, Bierhoff was a strong, physical, and powerful player, who played mainly as a target man in the centre-forward role. Known in particular for his aerial ability, he was able to execute headers with extreme precision, having scored several critical goals in the air throughout his career, for both club and country; he also possessed a powerful shot. Serie A top scorer 97-98.

    Tactics


    We have based our formation on France's 'magic square' of the 80's, we have put our best player Zidane in his favoured inside- left attacking midfield position and the team has been built around him. Karembeu and Di Napoli will be behind him creating a strong base to build from, while Boban will supplement our creative play from midfield, he will also drift wide right supporting Angloma in attack.

    We will also utilise Boban's fantastic engine which allows him to tuck back into midfield when defending. To provide width we have Jarni and Angloma who can dart down the wings, with Ravanelli linking up with Jarni on the left and Boban with Angloma on the right. With service from wide areas and Zidane in central areas, Bierhoff will have plenty of chances to score and in his Serie A form he is at the peak of his powers.

    In defence, Vierchowod and Tudor will be at the heart, Vierchowod is one of the best Serie A defenders of all time and Tudor was one of Juve's best CB's during that period. Both are pure defenders, physical, intelligent and great in the air, they will be extremely tough to break down. Jarni and Angloma are the full backs, both defensively solid. In goal Tacconi will provide that last line of defence, considered to be in the top 5 Italian keepers of all time.


    RAEES TACTICS

    TACTICAL OUTLINE

    4-3-3 (FALSE 9)
    PHILOSOPHY -
    Dominate the game, look to the likes of Moller, Francescoli to drift across the pitch and control the tempo and use Boksic as a battering ram out wide and up top.. with a desire to play Amoroso in, our assassin up front who will rarely be out wide but has experience of being up front in a wideish role in a 3-4-3 for Udinese. Use our full backs to provide width and keep the game stretched.. exploiting the oppositions lack of legs.

    KEY PLAYERS (IN FOCUS)

    • SEBASTIAN NELA 'INCREDIBLE HULK' (ROMA LEGEND): How this guy has gone under the radar I do not know.. a league winner for Roma in the classic side led by Falcao and still a pillar of the side in the early nineties, an absolute powerhouse who could operate at either flank despite being left footed and insanely powerful shot, with great dribbling/crossing ability. He'll be a force to be reckoned with down our left hand side and with Cafu doing the same down the other flank.. its going to be a battle royale down the flanks


    • ENZO FRANCESCOLI 'EL PRINCIPE' (CALIGARI HALL OF FAMER): His time in Italy didn't quite match the heights of the rest of his career, but he was 29/30 when he landed in Italy, so whilst not at his peak physically, he still showed more than enough during his time in Italy to prove he could handle the league and become a key component for Caligari alongside Fonseca and Herrera. He was initially used in midfield, before moving further up into a more attacking role where he helped Cagliari earn a surprising sixth place, earning a spot in the UEFA Cup (in a very competitive league). The brilliance of his play remained as effervescent as ever.. magical dribbling at pace, the touches, the elegance the playmaking.. it was still all there even if the goalscoring instinct had dullened during his phase in Italy. In our team, he is not in the side to be our goalscorer.. he's a creator and with guys like Boksic, Amoroso and Moller around him.. he can operate at his best (just look at the video below of his time in Italy)...


  2. Jan 26, 2018
    #2

    green_smiley :lol:

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  3. Jan 26, 2018
    #3

    harms Full Member Scout

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    Interesting set up with Möller/Enzo. Not sure that you'll get to dominate the game as you plan to though.

    And a great diamond/square from 2mufc/invictus, finally :lol: Unlike Recoba and Nakata Boban looks great here, imo.
  4. Jan 26, 2018
    #4

    Theon Full Member

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  5. Jan 26, 2018
    #5

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    All the best @Raees.

    Right to kick discussions off in the context of this draft, I don't think Thuram played Cb in a four man defence at Parma in this period, at best he was a RCB in a 3 man defence.
  6. Jan 26, 2018
    #6

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    Thanks!
  7. Jan 26, 2018
    #7

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    Also I don't believe Enzo was at his peak when he got to Italy, so he won't be feilding the best version of him either.
  8. Jan 26, 2018
    #8

    Gio 4 times Redcafe Draft Winner

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    Solid drafting from both sides.
  9. Jan 26, 2018
    #9

    antohan gets aroused by tagline boobs

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    @2mufc0 @Invictus nicely constructed side. Boban does indeed look great there. Only issue I see is De Napoli largely played on the right. And no, it's not another of those CM footed debates, he played right because he peeled right, just as Crippa peeled left in Nápoli's Crippa-Alemão-De Nápoli midfield trio. It wasn't a diamond with Diego at the apex, more a flat three, but the outside CMs operated in a similar way.

    More of a pet peeve as I imagine his remit is more linked to holding the line than attacking play, but worth mentioning.
  10. Jan 26, 2018
    #10

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    Cheers for the input.

    But like you mentioned, he's not tasked to drift wide or to play make, so I don't think it would be a critical issue here.
  11. Jan 26, 2018
    #11

    antohan gets aroused by tagline boobs

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    @Raees, I don't remember Nela playing leftback much in the 90s, if at all. Maybe at Nápoli? Certainly not at Roma where he typically filled in at LCB/RCB in a three.

    It's a good pick in terms of versatility but I didn't expect to see him tasked with bossing the flank.

    It's an interesting one. We can't assume Pirlo played pivot/DLP in the 90s, but Nela did play LB in the 80s so technically would know what the role requires of him. Did he still have the legs for it though?
  12. Jan 26, 2018
    #12

    sincher "I will cry if Rooney leaves"

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    'So Invictus we know that sinch is really fed up with CENSORED diamond formations, but all our midfielders are central. WTF are we going to do?'

    'Yeah I know, 2mufc0 but I have a plan. Let's call the diamond something else to distract him and pretend it's based on some flashy philosophy that won something'

    'Sounds good. How about "Romping Rhombus?"'

    'Not sure he is quite that stupid. I've got it. "Magic Square". Let's say France won with it or something, he'll never know'

    'Genius'

    Yeah, well lads, you are fooling noone. It's the same old sp...... diamond, only instead of putting Di Napoli at the base, with Karembeu and Boban to the right and left, you just kinda off-centred Karembeu. Weirdos.

    Anyway, to the match. Both managers took the innovative approach to the draft of bothering seriously with both defensive strength and also full backs who could attack, which is all a bit discombobulating tbh and makes it a bit of a challenge to see where the goals are going to come from.

    Aside from the battle for girliest name, in the end won by Lilian Thuram, with Jocelyn Angloma a close second, or the team with the fewest Italians in it, this would prove to be quite an intriguing footy match, the sort that dickhead commentators might describe as 'like a game of chess', which we all know means 'actually a bit boring, with very few goals'. Can Zizou help break the Raees Rogerers' classy looking back line? Time and again the sumptuous passing of Zizou and Zorro Boban were tying up the defenders in knots, but Bierhoff and the silver fox just couldn't finish the chances that came their way, especially with the close attention of such fine defenders. Poor old Bierhoff kept pointing to his nut, indicating where he wanted the ball delivered... but Zizou had other ideas and planted a Glasgow kiss on him and it. Lucky the ref didn't see that.

    The Rogerers finally took the lead after some great work from Moller and a diving header from Amoroso. 1-0. Surprisingly, Tacconi, feebly described as 'athletic, unusually so for his time' as if all goalkeepers back then looked like John Burridge, couldn't get to it. Ah well. At the other end Gigi Buffon was repelling feckin everything and ended the game with a clean sheet to his and the Rogerers' massive relief.

    1-0 and tighter than a gnat's chuff. It won't be easy to score against them that's fo sho.
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2018
  13. Jan 26, 2018
    #13

    Edgar Allan Pillow Was AFC, likes them hypoallergenic - no feathers

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    Not really sure how Raees's attack works. All 4 look to be central player with nobody other than Moeller really capable of drifting wide. Between Di Napoli and Karambeau it may tend to get crowded in front of mufc/invictus's defence.
  14. Jan 26, 2018
    #14

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    I think Cafu is the player is the only player who can provide the required width, but it's a dangerous game relying on him to it by himself with Zidane and Ravanelli roaming those areas and Jarni known for his overlapping runs, he will also get caught on the counter.
  15. Jan 26, 2018
    #15

    Raees Boing Boing Baggies

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    With the greatest of respect simply not true. Boksic was known for his ability out wide, pretty sure Invictus himself used him as a left winger in one draft and here he's playing as a left sided forward which is pretty bang on for where he operates.

    Amoroso was used in a 3-4-3 as one of the wide forwards alongside the central spearhead who was none other than Bierhoff so he has previous too.

    Most importantly though, Nela is a beast in wide areas and thus I've got two wing backs who are ferocious going forwards and capable of hugging the touchline and doing damage down the line.. so width wise, don't see an issue in our side.

    FWIW Jarni has gone under the radar here, I wasn't sure if his time in Italy was that highly rated.. compared to Nela and Cafu who are Roma legends.
  16. Jan 26, 2018
    #16

    Raees Boing Boing Baggies

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    If you have Boksic and Francescoli.. both of whom are comfortable drifting out wide, explain again how the entire attack would be centrally focused. If anything I have a more fluid attack with attackers who have proven records in wider positions as well as central ones. Agreed that the starting positions would be more central, but in possession.. you're telling me my forwards would be found wanting if they drift out to the flanks.. I don't buy that line of argument.
  17. Jan 26, 2018
    #17

    Gio 4 times Redcafe Draft Winner

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    Looks good to me. Both Boksic and Savicevic can move out wide and cut back in, both are on their favoured flanks, and both have powerful overlapping full-backs to work with. Thinking about splitting the park into five channels, outside-left is Nela, inside-left is Boksic, central is Enzo (and he can work across the line well too), inside-right is Savicevic and Cafu is outside-right. Very neat.
  18. Jan 26, 2018
    #18

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    Yeah, agree with this. Looks more adventurous on paper with Moller as a AM instead of a holder, but in the attacking third is a pretty good chemistry and tasty combination IMO.
  19. Jan 26, 2018
    #19

    Raees Boing Boing Baggies

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    Once again also.. goalkeeper makes negligible impact on the votes! How many games did Tacconi play in the 90's and was he highly rated during that period..
  20. Jan 26, 2018
    #20

    sincher "I will cry if Rooney leaves"

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    Savicevic is on another team though innit.
  21. Jan 26, 2018
    #21

    sincher "I will cry if Rooney leaves"

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    Actually dude, in the official report of the actual match as it happened, as opposed to all these duff voters, the goalies were crucial.
  22. Jan 26, 2018
    #22

    Edgar Allan Pillow Was AFC, likes them hypoallergenic - no feathers

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    I know Boksic from just basic research. He's a capable wide forward?
  23. Jan 26, 2018
    #23

    sincher "I will cry if Rooney leaves"

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    Boksic was a bit like Klinsmann but he did work the left channel sometimes. Classy player.

    Ooh look at me with me serious post.
  24. Jan 26, 2018
    #24

    Gio 4 times Redcafe Draft Winner

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    :wenger:

    Still, Amoruso can come from wide too.
  25. Jan 26, 2018
    #25

    Raees Boing Boing Baggies

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    Yes to my surprise he was.

    Boksic’s prolific 1992-93 season with Marseille – he scored 23 Ligue 1 goals and six in the European Cup, helping the French side win both – became the de-facto proof that the Boksic algorithm could yield the highest results.

    It would prove to be the reference point that encouraged Lazio (twice) and Juventus to take a punt on a player who finished fourth in the Ballon d’Or ahead of the likes of Michael Laudrup, Paolo Maldini, Hristo Stoichkov and Ruud Gullit in 1993.

    Boksic never replicated his form from that one season while in Italy, but his value lay beyond just goal scoring. He was part of a new wave of centre forwards that Thierry Henry says reinvented the role in the 1990s:

    Ronaldo together with Romário and George Weah, reinvented the centre-forward position,” Henry said. “They were the first to drop from the penalty box to pick up the ball in midfield, switch to the flanks, attract and disorientate the central defenders with their runs, their accelerations, their dribbling.”

    Asked who of Boksic or Davor Suker was the better striker, international colleague Slaven Bilic once said: “I don’t know who is better.

    “If you ask me as a centre-back, when you play against Boksic, he would have slaughtered you. Running, dribbling, going left in the channel. He’d kick you, beat you, whatever. But maybe he wouldn’t score.

    “But Suker? You’d have a good game against Suker, but then he’d score a couple.”

    As a combination, perhaps Suker’s poise benefitted from Boksic’s softening up of the opposition.

    As if to highlight the point, Boksic scored only 17 goals across three seasons in Serie A for Lazio between 1993 and 1996 yet earned a move to Juve, where he won the Scudetto, Coppa Italia, European Super Cup and World Club Cup in a single season.
  26. Jan 26, 2018
    #26

    Raees Boing Boing Baggies

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  27. Jan 26, 2018
    #27

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    62 league games + 10 in coppa Italia for Juve between 90-92. Buffon is probably better but Tacconi is still a good keeper in this time frame and hardly a liability that should cost votes.
  28. Jan 26, 2018
    #28

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    Nothing to suggest he played that way in Italy. But I think @Invictus knows more about him so will see what he has to say.
  29. Jan 26, 2018
    #29

    idmanager Full Member

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    Really like Raees' midfield.
    Rate Moller very highly and like Enzo' role here. Those 4 tilted it for me.

    Zidane and Boban are well placed, but not a fan of the base.

    Defensively as well, I find Raees' stronger.
  30. Jan 26, 2018
    #30

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    Even though Thuram is being played out of position? There doesn't seem to be a point in having draft themes like this if people don't take the context into account.
  31. Jan 26, 2018
    #31

    idmanager Full Member

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    No no, I did consider that and this is how I have decided to rate players.

    Have they played there in the past or internationally and were they capable or available of playing there during their stint in Serie A??

    I'll give you 3 examples:

    1. Desailly - Played as CB before but at Milan played mostly a DM. Although was available and capable of playing at both. That is ok for me if deployed as a CB.

    2. Thuram - Same as Desailly.

    3. Leonardo - Played as LWB at the start and end of his career but never in Serie A. And from what I have seen and know, he was not really available to be used as a LWB, nor would have done justice in the role if he played there at the end of 90s. That is not correct as per me.

    I know some people won't like this way of evaluating and some people will.
    I preferred it this way as it seemed fair as long as I am consistent in using it.

    Cheers!
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2018
  32. Jan 26, 2018
    #32

    Raees Boing Boing Baggies

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    That strike partnership was key to Parma’s success, but they were only afforded such freedom due to their resilient defence. A back three with Lilian Thuram and Fabio Cannavaro verges on the stuff of footballing fantasy, however, for Parma it was a reality which they reaped the rewards of. Lilian Thuram signed from Monaco in 1996, comfortable playing both centre-half and right back. Tall, strong and superb reading of the game made him an ideal centre-half, however, his monstrous pace and technique meant he excelled at right back too. Parma played him on the right-hand side of a three-man defence, in which all his attributes were utilised to devastating effect.

    You can hardly compare Thuram playing at CB to Desailly being played as a CB when his position was a DM, it is way less of a jump.

    He was playing as a central defender as part of a three man backline and was renowned for his defensive prowess. As we saw later on for France in 2006 - he was just as comfortable in a back 4 as a pairing, so to say he's out of position I think is incorrect. Unlike someone like Djalma, you can definitely put Thuram at centre-back as he was just as comfortable at CB, RCB and RB throughout his career.

    If at Parma he was being used as a RB, I'd understand the criticism or if it was someone like Porrini or someone of that ilk. It is Lillian Thuram though and he's playing more centrally like he did for Parma and not for France!
  33. Jan 26, 2018
    #33

    Raees Boing Boing Baggies

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    FWIW I don't really see how that attack brings out the best in Zidane.
  34. Jan 26, 2018
    #34

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    Fair enough mate, as long as you’ve thought about it.

    I have to disagree regarding Thuram though, never played in a back 4 as CB for Parma. He was deployed more as a RB or RCB stopper. He only moved to centre back later in his career in the 00’s.
  35. Jan 26, 2018
    #35

    antohan gets aroused by tagline boobs

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    Agree overall there's no issue with width. Francescoli would also be very comfortable if that were necessary (it isn't).

    I do disagree on Nela though. Can only buy him as a defensive leftback in the 90s.
  36. Jan 26, 2018
    #36

    Raees Boing Boing Baggies

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    So its okay to say he was played more as a RB but not as a CB. Makes no sense. He was played as a RCB, so in between.
  37. Jan 26, 2018
    #37

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    We are going to have to disagree on this, and he played RB in both WC 98 and Euro 00, even though internationals don’t count.

    Can he play there? Yes he can , but that’s not his Serie A 90’s peak position.
  38. Jan 26, 2018
    #38

    Raees Boing Boing Baggies

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    I'll see if I can look into some games from the 90's and post some links on here.
  39. Jan 26, 2018
    #39

    Raees Boing Boing Baggies

    Joined:
    May 16, 2009
    Messages:
    25,129
    Location:
    User requested ban till 01.06.2019
    Well yes I would agree with that. That said, even less than his peak.. he's going to be more than enough for your attack IMO.
  40. Jan 26, 2018
    #40

    antohan gets aroused by tagline boobs

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2002
    Messages:
    34,510
    Location:
    Montevideo
    He is also in the other team. The German is catching up with you mate :(