Shinji Kagawa

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by Baby Faced Assassin, Jun 5, 2012.

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  1. Jul 23, 2014

    AngeloHenriquez Full Member

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    What league is the J-League similar to in terms of quality in Europe? What's the "average league"?

    EDIT: As I'd argue they make the Championship look talented, but I don't know half as much as you obviously, so I stand to be corrected
  2. Jul 23, 2014

    Xaviesta Full Member

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    It might be no better that maybe the Swiss or Belgian league on a European scale. A step from our Australian league.
  3. Jul 23, 2014

    JSMHE New Member

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    The same thing can be said for Rooney. What if Rooney can reach his old form, which is much much better than Kagawa and Mata. Rooney is still 28 years old as well. There is no guarantee for a player can reach that level. Kagawa seems struggle in EPL playing style.
  4. Jul 23, 2014

    AngeloHenriquez Full Member

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    Exactly, to say he looked good against a level way below his station is ordinary, it doesn't mean he is that good, from the looks of things, there isn't a single premiership footballer who wouldn't have stood out at that level, so it's no real testament to his ability..
  5. Jul 23, 2014

    Xaviesta Full Member

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    I'd hate to be cynical about the person who put the video up of Kagawa playing in Japan, but it may have been out up by one of Kagawa's fans to show how he was playing at a high level. If you wanted to do that, show a video about him playing for Dortmund.
  6. Jul 23, 2014

    Cassidy No longer at risk of being mistaken for a Scouser

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    He wrote this:

    The level of the J-League is not much better than the average European league, but it's insane to see how good he was at age 17-21
  7. Jul 23, 2014

    Xaviesta Full Member

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    Harry Kewell would have looked world class playing in Australia when he was young too.
  8. Jul 23, 2014

    DWelbz19 Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016

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    People still peddling this Kagawa stuff? He's a squad player and basically will always be that.
  9. Jul 23, 2014

    Blue always red Full Member

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    Kagawa needs the midfield and forwards built around him. United last season, and the season before, were much too static and fell into zombie-football just passing the ball around the opponents box not really doing anything. This, for me, is why Rooney will always be the best choice No. 10 for United (unless LVG drastically changes the way we attack) as he can do it all himself if he needs to.

    Mata has better vision than Kagawa but if we continue to play at a slow pace he might struggle again, but like Rooney he can do much of it himself if needs be.

    Kagawa would suit a team like Aston Villa where the forwards are rapid.
  10. Jul 23, 2014

    Mad Winger New Member

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    Dortmund Kagawa was roughly around the same level as Chelsea Mata, and not very far behind Rooney at his peak either.


    It's difficult to pinpoint the exact level, but speaking as a Norwegian, I'd say the J-League is significantly better than the Scandinavian leagues, and probably better than the Scottish Premier League if we go by overall level. But it's also clearly weaker than the Dutch league, for instance. Another poster mentioned the Belgian and Swiss leagues, so I guess that is a fair enough comparison.


    There's a big difference though. First of all, Rooney would have peaked at age 26(?). That's hardly a weird thing for a player that relies heavily on physique. The typical "peak age" is 27-28, so it would make perfect sense for Rooney to be past his best days already. Kagawa on the other hand, would have peaked at age 22. That doesn't make any sense for a technical player who relies at lot on intelligence, rather than physique.

    I'll piss myself if Kagawa ends up playing a more important role than both Rooney and Mata now:p
  11. Jul 23, 2014

    AngeloHenriquez Full Member

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    I’m not trying to jump on the bandwagon here, but I just feel your trying to make something look better than it is due to your own agenda. You accept that it’s at the same level as the Norweigan league roughly, I’d argue that is weaker than the championship. A few years ago Cleverley was loaned to a CL team and did brilliantly, but people took it with a pinch of salt, however Kagawa excels in a kiddy league, and you hold that as a barometer? I can’t make my mind up if you’re blindly defending Kagawa or not able to see that your comparing him with children and saying he looked brilliant against them..
  12. Jul 23, 2014

    Spielmacher Full Member

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    You don't think LVG will change the way we attack?
  13. Jul 23, 2014

    Mad Winger New Member

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    First of all the J-League is significantly better than the Norwegian league ;)

    Secondly, I don't have an agenda other than wanting to show the posters how insanely good Kagawa was as a teenager in a pretty decent league. There's been a lot of Dortmund videos posted in this thread, which obviously are much better if you want to judge his level. But I think it's fun to see how good he was as a teenager as well. That's all there is to it.
  14. Jul 23, 2014

    AngeloHenriquez Full Member

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    That's not all there is to it, and I appreciate why you didn't post the Dortmund one's, as there's been 100's already.

    All I'm saying is if you show a video of the J-League in reference to how good any player is, you will and should be laughed at.

    You've done well previously and I felt people were jumping on you and a lot of what you said was reasoned and fair, but you are actually mental.
  15. Jul 23, 2014

    Mad Winger New Member

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    More like was...

    There's no way the likes of Cleverley or Young would have been this dominant in the J-League at age 17-21. They'd do well enough, yes. But nothing like what Kagawa did in that video.
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2014
  16. Jul 23, 2014

    AngeloHenriquez Full Member

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    I suppose that's where we disagree, I'd expect Ben Amos to be able to stand out in field there...

    That's an exaggeration obviously but Clev/ Young would smash it up there.
  17. Jul 23, 2014

    Xaviesta Full Member

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    Cerezo Osaka is a big club in Japan. Who's to say Kagawa's opponents weren't at a high level? The better players tend to stand out at that age level. Heck, Mata may have been clearly the best player in his age groups growing up too.
  18. Jul 23, 2014

    iBoss i-ttack the space

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    feck the J League. Yokohama just cost me money. Like the national team, no penetration, pussyfoot around all the time. Suits Kagawa as well.

    Just wanted to vent a bit.
  19. Jul 23, 2014

    Mad Winger New Member

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    If you smash it in the J-League and you're a Japanese citizen, then you're also easily good enough to make the Japanese national team. Cleverley would probably not make the Japanese national team(if he was Japanese), and if he did, he'd be fourth or fifth choice. Young would maybe make the team, but that's just because Japan currently don't have any quick wingers. He'd still be one of the worst players in the team, and I don't think he'd make the starting XI, even if Japan needs wingers.
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2014
  20. Jul 23, 2014

    dirkey Full Member

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    Anderson was quality in his first season at United. Likewise Nani has had some excellent seasons at United. Young's last season for villa was brilliant. All those in the premier League, a league that's actually relevant to United, yet people aren't firing up videos of those, claiming how great they are etc. In fact, most want them sold. A video from that long ago in a fairly average league is completely irrelevant. What he has done at United has been absolutely disappointing. I know the list of excuses mw and his other fans will make, yet in his two seasons here, he has been poor while others have played well. A video from 5 years ago means nothing. He needs to show us something this year. And in my usual batch of pre season optimism I'm starting to get hopeful that he will... Against my better judgement.
  21. Jul 23, 2014

    AkaAkuma Full Member

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    If that was a reserve team players showreel people would be going crazy about him. I think you make a fair point that he does have potential that he hasnt shown just yet.

    While the J league is of a decent standard, its not as physical as any european league, which makes it difficult to make comparisons.
  22. Jul 23, 2014

    Boycott Full Member

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    Young was one of the best wingers in the league at Villa.

    Cleverley is a confidence player - like Kagawa. He requires a team based on attacking movement and utilizing space - like Kagawa. Not saying his ability is as good but can't have one rule to prevent your beloved Shinji and apply the same criticism to others.
  23. Jul 23, 2014

    Blue always red Full Member

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    I think he will, but I don't think it'll suit Kagawa. He's already come out and said the players will adhere to my philosophy but he can only work with what he's got. I think too many new players will be required to make Kagawa properly shine.

    I do think Shinji will play a part, though, and he is still one of my favourite players to watch because his agility is just sublime.
  24. Jul 23, 2014

    Mad Winger New Member

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    Neither Cleverley nor Young has ever been anywhere near Kagawa's quality at his best, though. And Kagawa was in that form at the early age of 21-23. And being a player that relies heavily on his brain and technique, it's fair to say that he might even now be as much as 5 years away from his prime.

    Cleverley has never shown United quality. Young at his best is maybe United quality, but he's still a player who relies on pace and the ability to dribble past several opponents. The moment he loses that, he becomes completely useless as a player. And he's lost it.
  25. Jul 23, 2014

    JSMHE New Member

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    @Mad Winger the same thing can be said for Kagawa as well. What if he passes his best already. What if the season with Dortmund is the best he can do, and he won't repeat it again. Come to think again, the level he did to Dortmund is just great vision and through ball. Other than those, the Dortmund level won't reach Mata or current rooney. his ball control and touch aren't as good as Mata. Him and Mata have very small body but Mata still has a good balance, while Kagawa is the opposite which is very bad, his shooting isn't that good. Kagawa needs a lot of things to improved and he's not an utility player with a tank of stamina, ball winner and big match game winner like Park Ji Sung.
  26. Jul 23, 2014

    Spielmacher Full Member

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    Kagawa doesn't depend on other players, he depends on a system, that system can be played with every player, the only question is whether Van Gaal will play similar to it.
  27. Jul 23, 2014

    Mad Winger New Member

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    It makes no sense to be past it at age 23 when you rely on technique and intelligence.

    Kagawa's first touch and ball control is definitely on par with Mata's. What makes Mata unique, is his delicious set-pieces and ruthless effectivity. He's got the awareness of a striker, which results in a lot of simple assists and tap-in goals. Kagawa needs fluid attacking football to pull of the same, whereas Mata will score/assist even under Moyes' dire football.

    Kagawa was a big game match winner in Japan and Germany. He thrived under pressure up against the likes of Bayern and Schalke(Dortmund's main rival).
  28. Jul 23, 2014

    dirkey Full Member

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    No, they probably haven't shown his quality. However, they have shown a hell of a lot more in England than Kagawa ever has.

    And bear in mind I think neither of those 2 are good enough for United, but at least they have shown they can perform well in the league. Kagawa has had 2 seasons of underachievement. Huge year for him.
  29. Jul 23, 2014

    Xaviesta Full Member

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    You're sounding like Gary Neville defending David Moyes.
  30. Jul 23, 2014

    Mad Winger New Member

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    Meh, I don't want to take that discussion again. I think Kagawa has been better for United than both Young and Cleverley. I'll leave it at that.
  31. Jul 23, 2014

    Mad Winger New Member

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    Yes, it's madness to ask questions when a player supposedly peaks at age 23:lol:

    We've been shite, and as a result Kagawa has not been able to impress. Especially under Moyes, where most of our outfield players failed to impress. Apart from Januzaj, Rooney and partly Mata, none of our outfield players can be proud of themselves after last season.

    Kagawa was more than decent under Fergie. Easily our best winger that season(though his competition was crap). Let's see how it goes under a manager who knows what he's doing again. The Mata signing might have been the point of no return for Kagawa, but if there's one coach out there(apart from Klopp:drool:) who's able to see his potential, it's Van Gaal.
  32. Jul 23, 2014

    Xaviesta Full Member

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    Kagawa is 25. I'm alluding to the ridiculous lengths Gary Neville went to to defend David Moyes. He hasn't cut the mustard. Mata in 6 months has done better than Kagawa in two seasons.
  33. Jul 23, 2014

    Raoul Admin Staff

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    Like all players, I think Kagawa will do well under LvG. The new "philosophy" and hands on managerial approach will give him the confidence he needs. I see Van Gaal's style as comparable to Klopp's.
  34. Jul 23, 2014

    Mad Winger New Member

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    Way to completely miss the point...
  35. Jul 23, 2014

    dirkey Full Member

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    I wouldn't necessarily disagree. Bar his initial couple of months for United, Young has been crap alright. But he did start very well. Cleverley, likewise, had a great patch a few seasons back, where himself and Anderson looked a promising pairing. Overall though, I'll agree, he's been poor.

    My point is that, both have shown flashes of real promise, be it with United in those short stints, or with Villa or out on loan, all at a Premier League level.

    Kagawa has been distinctly average in his time in the Prem. He's had a handful of games where he's looked decent. I'm not disagreeing with the ability he showed in Germany. But that was Germany, and now, that was a long time ago. Some people just aren't suited to English football. Maybe he is one of them?

    As I said earlier though, I'm currently polluted with pre-season pure optimism. I even have ridiculous notions of Nani being effective once more (should he not be sold) or Anderson coming back from injury, half the size he was, with twice the determination, getting him back to the level of his first season. So maybe Kagawa really will come good for Louis?

    Who says I'm a dreamer!
  36. Jul 23, 2014

    Blue always red Full Member

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    The system will only work if the players are suited to it. United play a much slower possession based system than Dortmund do and Kagawa flourishes when he receives quick balls on the half-turn and can run with the ball and play overlapping runners in. If you put Rooney and Mata who, like Shinji, want to dictate our attacking play, either side of him you wont have the same effect as if you played Welbeck and Valencia. Also, you severely limit what Mata and Rooney can do if you play them in a system which benefits Shinji. If these players interchanged you'd still be limiting at least 2 of them.
  37. Jul 23, 2014

    Mad Winger New Member

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    Leaving all disagreement aside, I don't think that this is the case. He was on an upwards curve in his last 3 months under Fergie, improving game after game. If we look at the last 3 months of that season isolated, then Kagawa was easily one of our top 5 performers. Things were looking very bright for him until Moyes came.

    I'm willing to allow every United player to "erase" the Moyes year from their resume, not just Kagawa. It's just that some players still remain crap, despite erasing that year. The same cannot be said of Kagawa imo.

    But it all boils down to how you rate Kagawa's first season. I thought he was good, and thus the jury is still out imo. We finally have a good coach again, so the "judgement" will continue. If this becomes another Moyes year, then he should leave for his own sake. A very small part of me is pissed that we signed Mata, because I'm 100% sure that Kagawa would have become a dead on starter under Van Gaal if Mata wasn't around. And I think Kagawa has the potential to become better than Mata.

    It will be exciting to see how this ends.
  38. Jul 23, 2014

    Sammyjunn New Member

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    He looked twice as fast in that vid.
  39. Jul 23, 2014

    AngeloHenriquez Full Member

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    Since when? I've not seen any proof of that in the slightest.
  40. Jul 23, 2014

    dirkey Full Member

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    You know ... you were kind of convincing me until you mentioned him having the potential to be better than Mata! I can't agree with that particular part.

    But you do make some good points about his last 3 months under Fergie, in that he was improving. I'm not so sure I thought he was playing particularly well at that point, just that he was getting better.

    Definitely agree though, clean slate. Let's see what Louis can do. Roll on the season I say.
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