Tactical Dicussion: 4-3-3 with Pogba Matic Herrera

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Listar, Jan 4, 2018.

  1. Jan 4, 2018
    #1

    Listar Full Member

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    i know there are similar threads on this, but I just wanted to explore and discuss a specific 3 man midfield of Pogba Matic Herrera. The Everton game shows that Pogba thrives in this setup, but he tends to struggle as a 3 man midfield playing as a 10.

    The reason being that pogba is not a 10 and you need the pace
    and trickery such as the likes of Lingard and miki. Pogba as a centre 3 man mid will allow him to drift (matic or Herrera to keep the back solid) and thereby much more able to affect the game.

    However, what this means is that we will sacrifice our wing play. Is this a fair trade off the redcafe is willing to take?

    Base on a small sample of one game, I say let's do it. Go with 4-3-3 and forget 4-2-3-1.

    If we have a solid 3 in the centre with Pogba matic Herrera , it almost doesn't matter who is the 3 upfront. Heck, maybe even miki will excel in that front 3.

    Thoughts?
  2. Jan 4, 2018
    #2

    Womp idiot

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    Think it'll work, but ideally we'd replace Herrera with a DLP, someone who can dictate from deep - even though Herrera is my favourite player in the squad, he just shouldn't be first choice with Matic just being better at his role than he is.
  3. Jan 4, 2018
    #3

    SwSw Banned

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    I think a midfield three is the way to go.

    The front three of Martial, Lukaku and say Ozil would do wonders. We can always play Ozil at the RW since we've been doing that with Mata. Sure, we lose width on the right but i think we can offset that problem by getting dynamic fullbacks.
  4. Jan 4, 2018
    #4

    Devil may care Full Member

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    We don't have any wing play to sacrifice, the thing with the 4-3-3 is that it doesn't just benefit Pogba, it suits Martial, Lingard, Mata and Rashford, none of them are wingers and this way they can interchange and stay close to the striker. It's the formation that suits what we have in the team already.
  5. Jan 4, 2018
    #5

    Duafc Colm Murray

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    Thought Herrera was quite good at Everton and that made a big difference in the 433, particularly in the second half when the front 3 and pogba let loose a little.
  6. Jan 4, 2018
    #6

    AR87 Full Member

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    4-3-3 or 3-5-2 are the best setups for Pogba. The former suits more of our current personnel, but if Shaw comes good we could be quite devastating in the latter with him and Valencia at wingback.
  7. Jan 4, 2018
    #7

    Listar Full Member

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    I'm not sure about 3-5-2. It means either Pogba as a midfield 2 or operate as a 10. I still rather 4-3-3. We need someone else as a 10.
  8. Jan 4, 2018
    #8

    AR87 Full Member

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    I think in the 3-5-2 the added CB gives him a similar license to roam. My personal preference is for a 4-3-3 anyways so not much to quibble.

    IMO we need a more creative ball playing B2B than Herrera to really make it work. I do wonder how a front 3 of Lukaku, Martial and Lingard would work in that setup. We'd really need our FBs, particular the RB, to put in a shift both ways to maintain width in possession.
  9. Jan 4, 2018
    #9

    waza7111 Full Member

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    I don't see how it would sacrifice our wing play. If anything it would give us the advantage of outnumbering most teams on the left wing with Pogba, Martial and even Shaw. Most of our attacks would probably come down that side of the pitch but we don't have a natural right winger anyway. Now that Valencia is injured we have even less attacking threat down the right flank.
  10. Jan 4, 2018
    #10

    SS Full Member

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    There isn't really that much difference between Pogba being the #10 and him being the advanced cm in a 433. It's just a matter of letting him roam.
  11. Jan 4, 2018
    #11

    LLMU Full Member

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    There is no point of having wing play if all crosses couldn't beat the first man. This formation seems to work very well because of the movement of the front three. We need an all action midfield player to replace Herrera that can go around hunting down the ball and a proper right sided attacking player.
  12. Jan 4, 2018
    #12

    Blind Full Member

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    Ideal set up if we had a better player than Herrera capable of holding the ball and picking out forward passes while also working hard so that Matic can sit deeper and do what he does best. Saying that it's still easily the formation most suited to our current squad with Herrera and it would be great if he could get back into form after a dire season so far.
  13. Jan 4, 2018
    #13

    Listar Full Member

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    I think we tried him as a number 10 and it wasn't that good. Number 10 have to operate smartly between the opposition midfield and defence, with enough pace and trickery to burst through. Pobga is more suited to dictate play from midfield. If you watch the Everton match again, most of his great play started from deep, then with a one two he is then in the box. Lingard, mata, miki are more suited in the 10 role.

    Also,Putting Pobga in the 10 role makes him easier to be marked out of the game, and he will have less of the ball. If he comes short for the ball then the link between midfield and forward is gome. It happens quite often when he played the 10 role, came for the ball, pick it up, look up, no one to pass to, then lay it to a defender. Hence our sideway passing.
  14. Jan 4, 2018
    #14

    prath92 Full Member

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    Midfield 3 would be overkill in many games with Herrera. He isn’t attacking enough to take the game to the throttle. Maybe fellaini can.
  15. Jan 4, 2018
    #15

    Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber Thus says Kemo

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    Having three in the center, especially two 8's, makes us less reliant on wing play and helps our wide forwards play more naturally. IMO we should be looking to invest in a Pjanic/KDB/Modric/Kroos type of roaming playmaker if we want to upgrade on this system.
  16. Jan 4, 2018
    #16

    Listar Full Member

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    I thought Herrera was OK. But he needs to drop the Van Gaal style of possession at all cost approach, where he comes for the ball in midfield, first touch is always to lay it back to the defender. I saw they trained that move quite often in training under Van Gaal and I think it stuck with him. Weirdly enough Mourinho does not seem able to erase that part of the game from him. He should learn to be more confident in himself and his teammates to take the ball and turn (example Lingard) and if he loses the ball there is enough quality defenders to cover him.
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
  17. Jan 4, 2018
    #17

    Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber Thus says Kemo

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    We just need a second play maker with an engine in there
  18. Jan 4, 2018
    #18

    Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber Thus says Kemo

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    There is a huge difference between the two. On the left of a 3 he can drop back as far as he wants to evade markers and congestion and to keep involved in play. He cant do it as a 10 that is why he is often peripheral in the role
  19. Jan 4, 2018
    #19

    Listar Full Member

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    Isn't Pogba our roaming playmaker under this system or you are thinking of a number 10 type playmaker? I think Pogba was playing very similar to KDB where he operates deep and comes forward enough to affect the game at each end. A lot of City attack is KDB taking the ball from deep and pick out a wonderful pass to the forward. And to top it off, he arrives late to help out the attack if the initial attack got stalled. I think Pogba can do that job easily, but need license to roam.
  20. Jan 4, 2018
    #20

    2 man midfield Incestuous Modern Woman (Dumper!)

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    I'd like to see a midfield setup similar to how Jose worked at Porto. 3 in the middle, a playmaker linking them to the front 2 and the full backs providing the width.

    ---------------De Gea---------------
    -----2 of whoever isn't crocked----
    Valencia-----------------------Shaw
    ---------------Matic-----------------
    -----Herrera-------------Pogba-----
    --------------Lingard----------------
    -----Rash/Rom-----Martial--------
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
  21. Jan 4, 2018
    #21

    Listar Full Member

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    Is there a white text to the bolded part? Fellaini to me is suited way better as a 10 than a 5 or 6. I've seen too many defensive errors from him to shudder at the thought of him shielding our defence.
  22. Jan 4, 2018
    #22

    Listar Full Member

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    and if one of the non-crocked defender is Bailey then we are golden.
  23. Jan 4, 2018
    #23

    Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber Thus says Kemo

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    No. Im thinking of exactly the dynamic Real have pairing Modric and Kroos ahead of a 6 and City have with KDB and Silva ahead of a 6. Modric and Kroos take turns roaming. Think about it, how many teams would handle us if we played another Pogba on the right of that system. Or better yet a more playmaker type like Modric or Kroos, who can break forward, but don't mind staying put and dictating possession whilst their partner joins the attack? A pure 10 like an Ozil would be utterly ill suited to such a task. But an Iniesta would thrive in it. As would a Lemar or a Pjanjic. That is why moving for Savic makes total sense
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
  24. Jan 4, 2018
    #24

    Listar Full Member

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    Silva is a 10 though. I hardly see him droping back. But point taken. Two Pogbas. :drool:

    Edit: If only Moyes gotten us Kroos instead of Felaini how good will we be now. But then again if we didn't get Moyes and Fellaini then we wouldn't have Andy Tate
  25. Jan 4, 2018
    #25

    Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber Thus says Kemo

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    Fellaini is perfectly suited to the
    aggressive attacking midfielder role in a 4-3-3. He is good at offering defensive support to an anchor man, yet is a goal threat going forward. It is not by coincidence that all his best spells for us have come with him in that role.
  26. Jan 4, 2018
    #26

    Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber Thus says Kemo

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    Silva is a 10 who has successfully transitioned to an 8 though. Its actually KDB who sticks to the agro. Moyes had bagged Kroos for the next summer. But got sacked
  27. Jan 4, 2018
    #27

    Class of 63 Full Member

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    Or you could take Herrera out, and play with just 11 ;)
  28. Jan 4, 2018
    #28

    Listar Full Member

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    Well to be fair, I also bagged Messi and Ronaldo, but was never hired.
  29. Jan 4, 2018
    #29

    Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber Thus says Kemo

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    currently the one guy who remInds me of Modric out there is Max Meyer. he'd suit a 4-3-3 double 8 system alongside a pogba IMO.
  30. Jan 4, 2018
    #30

    Listar Full Member

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    That's why we can't play 3 at the back, as that will again make it a midfield 2 of Matic and Pogba. Back to square 1.
  31. Jan 4, 2018
    #31

    Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber Thus says Kemo

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    :lol:
  32. Jan 4, 2018
    #32

    11101 Full Member

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    I think the formation is the way to go but we need one more player. Midfield three has 3 main functions:

    1. Screen defence
    2. Playmaker, set tempo, pass short or long, hold the ball when needed and so on.
    3. Bring the ball through midfield and create/score goals

    Pogba is excellent at 3, decent at 2 and poor at 1.
    Matic is excellent at 1, ok at 2 and 3.
    Herrera is ok at 1 and 2 and poor at 3.

    Pogba and Matic can make it work on their own against weaker opposition but we still need someone who is excellent at 2, the playmaker role. Herrera is an understudy to Matic for me, we need to find that third guy.

    Reason I say all that is because if we can get those 3 working properly it almost completely frees up a front 3 to attack and provide width.
  33. Jan 4, 2018
    #33

    Listar Full Member

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    Herrera was ok at 3, then Van Gaal happened.

    Edit: For the record, I like Van Gaal, but some of his style was indefensible.
  34. Jan 4, 2018
    #34

    Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber Thus says Kemo

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    If Herrera could recapture the offensive play he had at Bilbao. He'd be an excellent fit
  35. Jan 4, 2018
    #35

    2 man midfield Incestuous Modern Woman (Dumper!)

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    Bugger. I'd rather sacrifice one of the center backs then, my main point was about the midfield and how it worked for Jose at Porto.
  36. Jan 4, 2018
    #36

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  37. Jan 4, 2018
    #37

    SS Full Member

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    That's all down to freedom rather than his starting position. Him starting at #10 and roaming all over the pitch while the two wingers push forward is basically the same as him starting in a midfield 3, roaming ahead of the other two mids. He didn't have a free role in the instances you mentioned, so he was stuck in the hole where he could be easily marked, as you said.
  38. Jan 4, 2018
    #38

    Listar Full Member

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    I understand what you are saying. But I am worried if we do that we will miss a operating 10, hence losing that link between the midfield and forward. May work if one of the winger push in to operate as a 10 when Pogba drops, but I think it is way too complicated for a team like United. Even Pep like his wingers stay out wide until the last instance if you listen to Henry. And you see this with Sane and Sterling where they just stay out wide.
  39. Jan 4, 2018
    #39

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  40. Jan 4, 2018
    #40

    SS Full Member

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    Sorry, you've lost me there. Pogba drifting away from the #10's usual position, would lead to the formation being virtually the same as the 433, which you're vouching for. How would there now be an issue, unless you view that as in issue in your 433?