The 'EDL'

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by ralphie88, Oct 11, 2009.

  1. Feb 11, 2012

    Saliph Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2009
    Messages:
    6,078
    Location:
    Norway
    Persecution and even murder for the crime of apostasy has been widely reported to be occuring in countries such as Afghanistan, Egypt, Saudi, Iran etc. Both by government and individuals/groups.

    Persecution of Ex-Muslims - WikiIslam

    It's all documented. I think there's good reason to believe there are a lot of dark figures too. Even here in Norway there have been plenty of reports of ex-muslims receiving death threats for leaving Islam.
  2. Feb 11, 2012

    Sultan السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2004
    Messages:
    36,894
    Location:
    Pulpit of Pearls
    You do know what Wiki Islam's agenda?

    "WikiIslam's goal is to become the one-stop source of information critical of Islam. This information is based primarily on its own sources, the Qur'an, hadith and Islamic scholars. It accepts the theory of evolution as a scientific fact and is notable for dealing extensively with false propaganda and Islamic pseudoscience. However, the site aims to remain neutral towards other religions, world views, and issues of a political nature, such as immigration, multiculturalism, and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict"

    Find a dozen instances in the last century of an apostate being killed officially in Iran, Saudi, Egypt, etc...

    Taliban don't count.
  3. Feb 11, 2012

    Saliph Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2009
    Messages:
    6,078
    Location:
    Norway
    - Yes, but it seems you fail to recognize the difference between opinions and reports/documentation/science. If this was merely their opinions, or they did not have any documentation to back up their claims, I obviously wouldn't take them seriously or link to them.

    So persecution/murder of apostates doesn't count unless it's being carried out officially? Is the treatment and view of apostates a problem in the muslim world or not?
  4. Feb 11, 2012

    Sultan السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2004
    Messages:
    36,894
    Location:
    Pulpit of Pearls
    Statistics can be easily manipulated to suit your world view, and agenda. Which that sites quite clearly claims to hold.

    Obviously it's a not a big a problem you are seemingly trying to prove. Back up your claims with statistics. I'm waiting.
  5. Feb 11, 2012

    Saliph Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2009
    Messages:
    6,078
    Location:
    Norway
    You're blinded by your religious affiliation and solidarity. Persecution of apostates is a major problem in many Islamic countries, and you're basically spitting them in the face by trying to deny and petty-fog that fact.

    At present, apostasy is illegal in most Islamic countries. Although execution of the apostate is not common, it does take place from time-to-time by frequently buttressing the “crime” with additional charges. The Islamic Republic of Iran, for instance, often adds the charge of mohareb (one who wars with God) to further legitimize its execution of apostates. A case in point pertains to the treatment of the religious minority Baha’is by the Islamic Republic. A number of Baha’is have been charged as apostates and mohareb, executed and some secretly buried in unmarked graves.
    - Amil Imani

    In the 1990s, the Islamic Republic of Iran used death squads against converts, including major Protestant leaders, and the situation is worsening under President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. The regime is currently engaged in a systematic campaign to track down and reconvert or kill those who have changed their religion from Islam.
    - Paul Marshall
  6. Feb 11, 2012

    Sultan السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2004
    Messages:
    36,894
    Location:
    Pulpit of Pearls
    So, now I'm blinded. Great science.

    Google fail you Saliph?
  7. Feb 11, 2012

    rednev God Save My Gracious Queen

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2006
    Messages:
    21,983
    I'm not sure that proves much. If anything, the tiny fraction of Muslims living in Islamic states who have converted or abandoned their faith tells us a lot about how apostasy is viewed in Islamic states. Those who do 'commit' apostasy generally have to leave for another country or keep it a secret. I know that it is illegal and punishable by death in Iran, and I imagine it is the same in Saudi Arabia and many of Islamic states. Even in the West it is extremely difficult for a Muslim to abandon his or her faith. The threat of what might happen to them is just too great, and that is largely down to Islamic teaching.

    Whether or not you agree that the Quran or Hadith teaches that apostasy is a crime punishable by death, the fact is that many Islamic countries do interpret it that way.
  8. Feb 11, 2012

    rednev God Save My Gracious Queen

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2006
    Messages:
    21,983
    Of course Muslims can coexist with non-Muslims in the West. But obviously Islamic teaching is somewhat in contradiction with Western values, this isn't even disputable, surely? It's the same story with Christian and Judaic teaching. Take blasphemy laws for example - the idea of blasphemy law is totally incompatible with Western values, yet the teaching of all three religions requires that it exists. There are hundreds of examples of contradictions. I don't see why you're getting so defensive about it, and I think the way that Saliph is being gang up on and misrepresented is wrong. It seems that some people are totally unwilling to accept faults of their belief systems.
  9. Feb 11, 2012

    niMic Curvy gay

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2006
    Messages:
    15,801
    Location:
    And I'm all out of bubblegum.
    Sultan is getting nastier than I've seen him. Obviously this is a sore spot to religious people, but this attitude helps no one.
  10. Feb 11, 2012

    rednev God Save My Gracious Queen

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2006
    Messages:
    21,983
    Having a discussion on a matter of a certain religion with a person of that religion is actually quite pointless. I had this problem today with a Catholic who refused to accept that his assertion that Nazi Germany was an atheist state was entirely baseless and quite frankly wrong.

    My advice to anyone of reason is to simply avoid getting drawn in to this discussion in this thread. It's obvious where it's going.
  11. Feb 11, 2012

    Sultan السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2004
    Messages:
    36,894
    Location:
    Pulpit of Pearls
    :lol:

    To be honest, I'm not even being serious in this thread. A number of Smilies is a give away.
  12. Feb 11, 2012

    Sultan السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2004
    Messages:
    36,894
    Location:
    Pulpit of Pearls
    :lol:

    Do you realise the irony of your post?
  13. Feb 11, 2012

    niMic Curvy gay

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2006
    Messages:
    15,801
    Location:
    And I'm all out of bubblegum.
    Come on now..
  14. Feb 11, 2012

    rednev God Save My Gracious Queen

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2006
    Messages:
    21,983
    Unfortunately I don't always follow my own advice..
  15. Feb 11, 2012

    Sultan السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2004
    Messages:
    36,894
    Location:
    Pulpit of Pearls
    I'm serious buddy. I've got a big grin on my face now, and was even bigger last night.
  16. Feb 11, 2012

    niMic Curvy gay

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2006
    Messages:
    15,801
    Location:
    And I'm all out of bubblegum.
    So you're trolling. In the CE. While other people are pretty much ganging up on someone.

    That's not a whole lot better.

    Maybe I'm being harsh here, but it just doesn't seem that great an idea.
  17. Feb 11, 2012

    Sultan السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2004
    Messages:
    36,894
    Location:
    Pulpit of Pearls
    The thread, and Saliph lost legitimacy when he told AS to "feck off"
  18. Feb 11, 2012

    niMic Curvy gay

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2006
    Messages:
    15,801
    Location:
    And I'm all out of bubblegum.
    I just called someone a massive spastic :(
  19. Feb 11, 2012

    Saliph Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2009
    Messages:
    6,078
    Location:
    Norway
    Speak of the devil, came across this on another forum I frequent.

    Saudi Hamza Kashgari faces death calls after prophet tweets | Information, Gadgets, Mobile Phones News & Reviews | Herald Sun

  20. Feb 11, 2012

    Sultan السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2004
    Messages:
    36,894
    Location:
    Pulpit of Pearls
    Nothing will happen
  21. Feb 11, 2012

    niMic Curvy gay

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2006
    Messages:
    15,801
    Location:
    And I'm all out of bubblegum.
    But the point is the reaction.
  22. Feb 11, 2012

    crappycraperson "Resident cricket authority"

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2003
    Messages:
    27,723
    Location:
    <Insert something funny here>
    To be fair, whilst I personally despise Saudi society's backwardness and insistence to apply medieval laws, that was highly idiotic of that person to make those tweets. It is one thing for women to organize protests to gain equal rights; but for a lone man, who very much knows how conservative the laws are in his country, to knowingly go out and then make any kind of dubious remarks about the most revered figure in his country is insanity and does not achieve anything.
  23. Feb 11, 2012

    Sultan السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2004
    Messages:
    36,894
    Location:
    Pulpit of Pearls
    Some years back David Irving was arrested in Austria, on charges that he publicly denied certain aspects of the Holocaust. He was threatened with a 20 year prison term. It didn't come to pass. This is a similar situation. We need to look closer to home before pointing fingers.

    PS: I am in favour of holocaust laws (respect)
  24. Feb 11, 2012

    Saliph Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2009
    Messages:
    6,078
    Location:
    Norway
    - That was a disgrace.

    PS: I am not in favor of Holocaust laws (or indeed any other laws which limit freedom of speech and the freedom to criticize and hold different views and opinions).
  25. Feb 11, 2012

    ha_rooney Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2008
    Messages:
    18,751
    Do you not think there is a line to be drawn and we need rules to make sure people do not offend others by their thoughts?

    Having complete freedom of speech and being able to say what you thought without having moral respect for others would lead to bigger problems.
  26. Feb 11, 2012

    Saliph Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2009
    Messages:
    6,078
    Location:
    Norway
    - No, I don't. There's obviously a difference between harrassment and offending. But being offended is an entirely subjective matter. What offends you might not offend me and vice versa. No one should have a right not to be offended. That's a very dangerous path to go down.

    That's not to say we shouldn't make an effort not to needlessly "offend" others.

    That's what freedom of speech is.
  27. Feb 11, 2012

    Saliph Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2009
    Messages:
    6,078
    Location:
    Norway
    Regarding freedom of speech, I saw an absolutely fantastic speech by Christopher Hitchens on this topic a little while ago. One of the best I've seen of him (he also talks about the David Irving arrest, incidentally):



  28. Feb 11, 2012

    Sultan السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2004
    Messages:
    36,894
    Location:
    Pulpit of Pearls
    Be a realist Saliph. Freedom of speech, and action is always restricted in some manner. Granted more in some countries than others. There are laws against defamation, obscenity, publishing or saying anything which compromises a nations security. These restrictions are in place to restrict, and protect us sending out harmful messages to protect us, and keep harmony.
  29. Feb 11, 2012

    Saliph Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2009
    Messages:
    6,078
    Location:
    Norway
    I'll concede it was clumsily phrased. But I dare say you get my point.
  30. Feb 11, 2012

    Sultan السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2004
    Messages:
    36,894
    Location:
    Pulpit of Pearls
    Manchester United fanzine seized before Liverpool game

    Police seized copies of a Manchester United fanzine before the match with Liverpool amid fears its cover would stoke the racism row between the clubs.

    The Red Issue fanzine featured a cut-out Ku Klux Klan-style mask with the words "LFC Suarez is innocent".

    The magazines, described by police as "potentially offensive", were confiscated outside Old Trafford.

    Liverpool's Luis Suarez was facing United's Patrice Evra for the first time since the racism row.

    Ch Supt Mark Roberts said anyone found selling the fanzine or displaying the image faces prosecution.

    He said: "Shortly before kick-off we were made aware that a Manchester United supporters' fanzine being sold outside Old Trafford featured a potentially offensive image.

    "Officers are now seizing the fanzines and in consultation with the Crown Prosecution Service we will take appropriate action against anyone either found selling this particular fanzine or provocatively displaying the image in public."

    Police have also arrested a man on suspicion of a racially aggravated offence over a T-Shirt which has been confiscated.

    Mr Roberts added: "I have taken this course of action as both items are potentially offensive and we cannot be in a situation where hundreds or thousands of people were displaying offensive images at a football match.

    Tunnel clash
    "The consequences of taking no action could have resulted in public order incidents inside or outside the ground."

    Suarez was banned for eight games and fined £40,000 for racially abusing Evra in a league match at Anfield in November.

    The Liverpool player refused to shake Evra's hand before the match, which United won 2-1, and there were also reports players from both teams clashed in the tunnel at half time.

    One fan was arrested for making an allegedly racist gesture at the teams' FA Cup Match at Anfield last month.
  31. Feb 11, 2012

    RK Full Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2008
    Messages:
    15,413
    Location:
    Attacking Midfield
    Hmm, there were plenty of similarly-themed t-shirts going around. On the walk away from the ground a couple of older women were bollocking a merchant of the goods. I carried on walking...
  32. Feb 12, 2012

    maniak Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2004
    Messages:
    3,211
    Location:
    Arsenal
    My problem is not with islam, but with the lack of balls we have regarding muslims breaking certain laws.

    I'll give an example that happened here a while ago.

    A few chinese immigrants didn´t send their kids to school and decided that their mother was going to teach them at home. They got into trouble because the mother wasn´t a teacher so the kids had to go to school. There were a few arguments but a couple of months later the kids were in school. I don´t know how it is in other countries but here school is mandatory until you´re 16 and complete at least the 9th grade or you become an adult.

    A few months later a muslim family decided to do the same and of course the same legal problem came up. But this time a muslim clergyman (I don't know if they have a specific title) offered to teach the kids instead of family members and this was allowed because the parents claimed the public school didn't offer the education they wanted for their children. This clergyman did not have any credentials to teach in Portugal, but because nobody wants to infringe on other peoples religions freedoms and because muslims became angry very easily, the whole thing was just allowed.

    If in fact the majority of muslims are normal citizens (which I believe they are) why do we roll over to stuff like this?

    We need to grow some balls. The problem is not the muslims, it's us.
  33. Feb 14, 2012

    Neutral BTV

    Joined:
    May 1, 2010
    Messages:
    7,511
    Location:
    DC/Canberra/Dhaka

    Just found this on a Portuguese home schooling website:

    Home Education (Homeschooling) is legal in Portugal, providing you make the inscription at the beginning of the year in any school.

    Children are allowed to be educated by their parents or home teachers providing they take examinations at the end of each cycle (4th, 6th, 9th, & 12th year).



    Also I am very angry right now :mad:
  34. Feb 14, 2012

    rednev God Save My Gracious Queen

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2006
    Messages:
    21,983
    Just one of many examples...had Britain legislated to stop people from offending others with their thoughts, Darwin's On the Origin of Species certainly would not have been allowed to be published.

    Are you seriously suggesting that ideas and opinions should be suppressed on the request of some people who might happen to be offended by them?
  35. Feb 15, 2012

    Saliph Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2009
    Messages:
    6,078
    Location:
    Norway
    This guy had to flee to Malaysia because of the threats, but was sent back by the government there.

    Also, Iran has just passed a law which will make it much easier for the regime to prosecute apostates. Execution for male apostates, life in prison for females, according to the new law.
  36. Feb 15, 2012

    Sultan السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2004
    Messages:
    36,894
    Location:
    Pulpit of Pearls
    We can only vent Saliph. Their country, their laws.

    Personally, I find it simple to follow the laws of the country I reside, or visit irrespective of religion or political stand.
  37. Feb 15, 2012

    Sultan السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2004
    Messages:
    36,894
    Location:
    Pulpit of Pearls
    If the population of a particular country do not agree with the laws of their land, then it is entirely their business to seek change through legitimate means.
  38. Feb 15, 2012

    Devil_forever You're only young once, you can be immature f'ever

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2007
    Messages:
    8,838
    Location:
    Head of the naval division of lolibfascon
    In a country like Saudi, even if the vast majority did want change (which I'm sure is the case), they'd be powerless to do so. That's why Saliph posting that article makes even less sense. The stupidity of an extreme minority (the religious clerics of saudi) doesn't really back up his argument. The equivilant would be to use the KKK as representatives of white americans. Both are are very much in the minority and both are hated by the vast majority they claim to represent.
  39. Feb 15, 2012

    Saliph Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2009
    Messages:
    6,078
    Location:
    Norway
    - I'm sure it's not.

    - If they were in the vast majority, of course they wouldn't be powerless.

    - It makes perfect sense. It shows how apostates are viewed and treated in an Islamic state.

    - Too bad it's not an "extreme minority". And yes, it does. Which part of my argument does it not back up?

    - Not at all. The KKK are hated by the vast majority (do they even exist anymore?), and they're not even close to having any kind of power.
  40. Feb 15, 2012

    Saliph Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2009
    Messages:
    6,078
    Location:
    Norway
    Yes, and I find it easy to despise them for it. Stupid, intolerant, barbaric laws should be criticized, wouldn't you agree?

Share This Page