The Fifth Redcafe Sheep Draft QF - Enigma_87 vs. 2mufc0

Discussion in 'Draft Games Forum' started by green_smiley, Dec 27, 2017.

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Who would win in the following draft game with all players at their peak?

Poll closed Dec 28, 2017.
  1. Team Enigma_87

    50.0%
  2. Team 2mufc0

    50.0%
  1. Dec 27, 2017
    #1

    green_smiley :lol:

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    TEAM ENIGMA_87

    [​IMG]

    VS

    TEAM 2MUFC0

    [​IMG]

    TACTICS ENIGMA_87

    Formation: 4-3-3
    Defensive line: Normal
    Style: Direct style - high work rate

    Players:
    GK: Julio Cesar
    - one of the best modern day goalkeepers. Been Seria A best goalkeeper of the year in two consecutive years, and a name always among the top keepers in the late 00's.
    LB: Ruud Krol - a fantastic defender who could play all across the backline and a total footballer himself.
    CB: Diego Godin - probably the best CB since Rio and a pillar of Atletico's defence.
    CB: Matthias Sammer - One of the very few defenders to win the Ballon D'or on the back of great performances for club and country. A perfect heir for der Kaiser himself, Sammer is one of the truly greatest defenders to play the game.
    RB: Philipp Lahm - In his natural position there are very few in the past that combine the versatility, defensive solidity and offensive game, as well as the tactical awareness to make the full back position his own.
    DM/cover - Frank Rijkaard - unarguably the greatest DM, ever.

    B2B: Arturo Vidal - A monster of a player capable of producing both in attack and defence he's in his natural b2b role and being the engine in midfield.

    B2B: Michael Ballack - at his peak he was a complete midfielder and a great fit for Vidal in the middle, linking up midfield and attack. His long range ability will come handy in this game as well considering Edgar's keeper.

    LWF/Playmaker - Johan Cruyff - he'll be the star of the team pulling the strings in the final third and controlling the game.

    RWF - Kalle Rummenigge - two times Ballon D'or winner and one of Germany and Europe greatest goalscorers.

    ST: Mario Gomez - certainly not the flashiest striker around but incredibly clinical - he struck 90 goals in all competitions for club and country in 11-12 for two years straight and was key player for Bayern winning 3 Bundesliga titles (1 with Stutgard also won player of the year in Germany in 2007), 1 CL and numerous cups during his stay.

    Key points:
    Against a 5-3-2 you need a solid defensive line
    - especially facing a side with Ronaldo and Eusebio in. However we have probably one of the greatest defensive units in the draft in Krol, Lahm, Godin, Sammer and Rijkaard. We will make the backline compact when defending, thus leaving little to no space for 2mufc0 attacking trio - Sir Bobby, Ronaldo and Eusebio to opearate
    Excellent midfield having the ability to go through transitions and also defensively solid to counter the more central 2mufc0 threat. Vidal is also excellent choice to stifle Gerson's playmaking game giving him little to no time on the ball in the center.
    A diverse attack - targeting 2mufc0 weaker flanks and overloading Junior and Carvajal and pulling constantly Cannavaro and Jack Charlton out of position targeting the area between the wing backs and stoppers.

    Advantages:
    - Our biggest advantage is our flanks - with Kalle and Lahm on one side and the proven Krol/Cruyff on the other we will prove to be too much to handle for Carvajal and Junior creating goalscoring opportunities on either side.

    - Both Cruyff and Kalle are specialists in cutting in from wide positions and scoring goals, exploiting 2mufc0 weak areas.

    - Solid defensive core both on the flank and in the center. Godin and Sammer is a perfect complimentary pairing possessing plenty of pace, defensive ability, air dominance and also tactically sound. Godin has plenty of experience dealing with GOAT's like Cristiano and Messi, holding his own, whilst Sammer's defensive acumen needs no presentation.

    With Krol and Lahm on either flank we will cover also Eusebio and Ronaldo runs into pockets providing a sound defensive unit anchored by non other than Rijkaard himself.


    TACTICS 2MUFC0

    Tactically i haven't changed the system much from the last match but i have upgraded certain positions and changed up the midfield personnel. I have bolstered my team considerably by bringing in one of the greatest defensive midfielders of all time Varela and have brought in Modric to bring that bit of flair into the midfield and to link defence with attack. Varela being more of the stopper while Modric also defensively astute and tactically aware, in front of them they have Sir Bobby who will be helping out in midfield when the situation demands.

    Upfront i have brought in the greatest no.9 of all time Ronaldo who will be partnered by Eusebio to spearhead the attack, they both have plenty of space to operate and will create a powerful and skillful partnership. Although Godin is a good player he's not elite level and i can see these two causing him a lot of problems.

    Behind them will be Sir Bobby making his bursting runs forward and playing them through and not to forget his blistering long shots. All three of these players are powerful and strong and will be difficult to contain. To provide width i have Carvajal and Leo Junior.

    Unlike the last time i am not facing any traditional wingers that like to go down the touchline, Cruyff is likely to be positioned on the left but his best game is drifting into central areas, if he's instructed to stay out wide and hug the touchline that benefits me and hurts the opposition more. This means he will often drift into areas Varela will be operating and it will be extremely tough for him and expect Varela to keep him quiet. As Cruyff is Cruyff he will have his moments but i do have Cannavaro and Carvajal on that side to help out.

    Behind Cruyff is Krol another fine player but not a rampaging left back therefore Cravjal will have more freedom to get forward this game. If Enigma plays a 4-3-3 again this will allow the spare defender Baresi get forward into those central areas when possible to dictate the game from the back.

    I'm not sure how much voters take the keeper into consideration but Buffon is superior to Cesar in all categories and would be worth saving a goal or two himself.
  2. Dec 27, 2017
    #2

    green_smiley :lol:

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  3. Dec 27, 2017
    #3

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    Good luck @Enigma_87.

    Godin has played all his career in a defensive setup where conditions suit defenders, in a more attacking setup like yours I don't believe he will be as good. Secondly apart for atletico's title winning season Real and Barca always beat them so I don't think he has a great record against Ronaldo and Messi either.
  4. Dec 27, 2017
    #4

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    But you don't have any wide players to really threaten them. Both Kalle and Cruyff are inside forwards, most of the time it will be the midfielders and defenders dealing with them. The only proper flank player you have is Lahm. And Kalle's stronger foot is his right, cutting in from the right will be less dangerous than the left.

    Then you have Gomez as the centre forward which I have no problem leaving one on one with Baresi, and expect him to nullify him.

    Heading out for a bit will be back later.
  5. Dec 27, 2017
    #5

    harms Way Staff

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    Edging towards 2mufc at the moment. Although Krol + Cruyff is a formidable threat on the left.
  6. Dec 27, 2017
    #6

    Enigma_87 You know who

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  7. Dec 27, 2017
    #7

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    Godin is probably the best modern day defender since Nesta and Ferdinand. He was excellent for Villarreal as well where he players alongside weaker defensive unit, whilst here he’s paired with Sammer, two GOAT full backs and anchored by Rijkaard. We’re playing to his strengths as he is a great foil for Sammer defensively and I can see that partnership really flying here.
  8. Dec 27, 2017
    #8

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    Both Kalle and Cruyff are one of the most versatile forwards you can come across in the game. Both are great goalscorers and loved cutting in whilst also having players like Krol and Lahm to overlap. Kalle was capable of operating all over the attack and put both his feet into action, scoring some important goals from all over the box as well being outside of it.

    Gomez is there to have Cruyff and Kalle feeding off him and whilst he’s not the flashiest if forwards will keep Baresi pinned as he’s a top finisher at his peak scoring close to 100 goals for club and country for 2 seasons in a row and winning the CL with Bayern.

    He will occupy Baresi and limit him to help outside Cannavaro and Charlton.

    I didn’t get the point with wide forwards to be honest as in a modern 4-3-3 most of the flank players are wide forwards complimented by overlapping fullbacks - exactly what we have here as well.
  9. Dec 27, 2017
    #9

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    And Kalle/Lahm on the right. :) I think we have two very good routes on both flanks and inside channels while our compact back and solid defensively spine can limit the chances the opposition forwards can get.

    Carvajal could provide to be a liability in this game when Krol and Cruyff attack from that side and Kalle vs Charlton is another favorable matchup for us in the attacking third.
  10. Dec 27, 2017
    #10

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    Sorry can't agree with that, really over rating him.

    Well you are specifically instructing them to cut into the central areas where they won't find much joy against the midfield and defence. They aren't going to play like touchline wingers ala Overmars or Jairzinho, so the wide areas won't be much as an issue.

    And the best strikers of Baresi's time couldn't pin him back and you are expected Mario Gomez to do it? :confused:

    Also Modric is a perfect foil for Vidal's pressing style and has outperformed him In one v ones almost everytime they've met in the CL.

    Then you have Eusebio, Ronaldo and Charlton who will create chances and score.
  11. Dec 27, 2017
    #11

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    Really? Who do you reckon has been better than him since then?

    The midfielders have to worry about Ballack and Vidal as well. It's not that they will constantly help out your full backs. Both Ballack and Vidal are consistent goal threats from the middle and you'll need both Varela and Modric to mind them in the center otherwise it will open up gaps in the middle and their long range efforts are really appreciated having in mind their careers.

    Vidal has very good record in CL against Real, playing for Juventus. I think they only met Modric once or two times and wouldn't put it like that.

    Your attack is narrow as it is - Ronaldo and Eusebio are your main wide threats and as good as they are I don't think Junior or especially Carvajal having much joy on the flank. Not to mention Carvajal having no place in this company, especially playing against Krol/Cruyff flank.

    Having a compact defensive unit when we're on the back foot would limit your chances going forward as we can narrow down the space your forwards operate in it and if you want to pull that 5-3-2 you'd need a top class wing backs like Bobby Carlos and Cafu, whilst in Junior - naturally tucking in centrally and Carvajal - who is far from your typical wing back - you both lack natural width and also quality on the flank.
  12. Dec 27, 2017
    #12

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    This is Vidal against Real BTW. Constant threat in attack but also dispossessing, getting the ball back and retaining possession. Capping his performance with a cool peno.
  13. Dec 27, 2017
    #13

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    Godin has been around for a long time 2003 to be precise, Vidic, Terry, Carvalho, Hummels, Boateng, Pique, Ramos, Maldini, Silva, Puyol, Lucio just from the top of my head. He's probably on par with the likes of Chiellini. Good defender but clearly not the best of his generation.

    Also if you are committing all of your midfielders to attack, all it takes is Varela or Baresi to nick the ball and you will get destroyed on the counter.

    I know modern players get a rough deal in these drafts but Carvajal is no sheep. Along with Marcelo he has been one of the key attacking outlets for Madrid in their golden period over the last few years. And a lot of under rating of Leo Junior who has also all of a sudden become a sheep full back.
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2017
  14. Dec 27, 2017
    #14

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    I could post the last couple seasons where Real have destroyed Bayern, more often than not Modric has come out on top.
  15. Dec 27, 2017
    #15

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    Luka Modric is the perfect midfielder against pressing midfielders no matter the number players around him he never loses the ball, in a game like this he will provide much relief and be very reliable in linking defence with attack.

  16. Dec 27, 2017
    #16

    harms Way Staff

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    The only criticism I've seen on him is that he isn't your average width-providing wingback, as had tendency to drift inside as an additional playmaker, which is fair enough
  17. Dec 27, 2017
    #17

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    Can understand that viewpoint, but he's been described as lacking quality. Although he does like to drift inside he's also capable of going outside. And with Ronaldo able to work the channels at times Junior making inside runs can be dangerous and varies my attack.
  18. Dec 27, 2017
    #18

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    I’ve described Carvajal as lacking quality on the other wing not Junior. Junior is just not a good fit for your 5-3-2, especially with Modric as a LCM. You have two playmaking players operating in roughly the same space. Junior lived to tuck inside just where Modric is. Someone would have been a much better fit for your side and would’ve added more to the midfield battle.
  19. Dec 27, 2017
    #19

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    I think the 5-3-2 2mufc0 is playing, as any other formation like that relies a lot on the wing backs to add both width in attack and stability in defence. I don’t think either of those wing backs are particularly good fit at this level. And when you have in mind the two flanks they are up against they will have their hands full most of the time which will make 2mufc0 more predictable and narrower in attack.
  20. Dec 27, 2017
    #20

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    That’s not peak Vidal tho. Unfortunately the last seasons he’s a mere shadow of the monster (and muppet dream) that was for Juve.
  21. Dec 27, 2017
    #21

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    "you both lack natural width and also quality on the flank."

    Maybe it was a mistake on your part, but that's how I read it.

    Secondly Junior played in one of Brazil's greatest teams, with the like of Falcao, Zico, Socrates and Eder in and around central areas it seems to be a redcafe myth from previous games he can only run into central areas.
  22. Dec 27, 2017
    #22

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    Lahm is the only one who can provide natural width. LB is Krol's secondary position, I'm not denying he wasnt good there. I'm just questioning whether he can be the rampaging attacking overlapping fullback you want him to be.
  23. Dec 27, 2017
    #23

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    That's why I wrote flank - as in singular :)

    Junior played in one of Brazil's greatest teams - true, but that doesn't mean that the team didn't have issues and the main one was incorporating too many central players or ones that loved getting inside the pitch - Junior included.
  24. Dec 27, 2017
    #24

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    A lot of your play will also be relying on Cruyff and Rummenigge playing off of Gomez, and I can see Baresi doing a job on him. It won't be easy getting those lay offs on the ground, as I don't believe he has the quality. If you want to punt it into the air hoping for knock downs Jack Charlton is capable of matching him in the air.
  25. Dec 27, 2017
    #25

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    My bad then :)
  26. Dec 27, 2017
    #26

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    Wholeheartedly disagree.

    Krol was mainly used as a LB for Ajax and the Dutch side bar the end of his career when he moved centrally. He's the total defender himself and could play anywhere across the back. Have seen him as a RB as well in some games where he had to fill in.

    He was fast as hell in his early days and can completely man his own flank, something he also used to do both for Ajax and the national side:

  27. Dec 27, 2017
    #27

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    I wouldn't call Carvajal a sheep, but for one or more reasons he was benched for Danilo fairly recently of all people. Having in mind the other two full backs on the pitch there is a gulf of quality in between him, Lahm and Krol.

    Leo Junior is not a sheep full back, but he's not playing as a full back here as well. As a wing back I don't think he's an appropriate choice. That 1982 team had Leandro as a main provider of width from the back whilst Junior had Eder in front of him most of the cases as a left forward. If you have used Leandro in Junior's role I wouldn't even mention it, but Leo wasn't the same type of player. He doesn't have the same pace and explosivity to man the flank or to provide the attacking support and defensive cover you have tasked him at hand here.

    He's not the type of player to man his own flank - what he's expected here, and neither is Carvajal to be honest.

    As for Godin - he has marshaled the best defensive unit in the world for numerous years now with not that significant partners either. He was a late bloomer so to speak, but still has shown his quality at Villareal as well. I won't put players like Boateng, Hummels and Ramos in the same boat as they were pretty much humiliated not just a single time by various players in their respective careers. From the 10's on Maldini, Puyol were retired for example and the other mentioned I really can't agree being in the same league with him.
  28. Dec 27, 2017
    #28

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    A great piece on Godin:

  29. Dec 27, 2017
    #29

    harms Way Staff

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    Interesting that no one had discussed Sammer's role before. At his peak I think he played in a back 5 both for Germany and Borussia, has he played in a back four at the highest level (genuine question, maybe he did but I just don't remember).
  30. Dec 27, 2017
    #30

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    :confused: its actually the other way around, Real spent a huge sum on Danilo who Carvajal dislodged from the team. Real sold him to city in the summer because they don't need him as Carvajal is their no. 1. Carvajal had some sort of heart issue at the start of the season and there was even some talk of him retiring, that's the reason he didn't play much at the start of the season, now fit he's back in the team.
  31. Dec 27, 2017
    #31

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    This is correct, normally played in a back 5.
  32. Dec 27, 2017
    #32

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    Well he was a monster defensively and tactically brilliant player that can occupy number of positions a bit like Beckenbauer himself. Probably the injuries later in his career prevented him to achieve even more success. The Godin/Sammer pair is really a perfect sweeper/stopper combination and with Rijkaard as a DM and anchor - capable of maintaining position when Sammer moves up IMO suits his role pretty well. A bit like your use of Kaiser in the other games.

    Having played in a back 5 doesn't necessarily mean he can't do the same, given the right setup, at a flat back four. A bit like having Scirea there. Sammer didn't have flaws in his game, and especially in his defensive game to pull a masterclass here either.
  33. Dec 27, 2017
    #33

    MJJ Full Member

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    Tbf you don't have Eusebio and Ronaldo as a front two normally when playing a 5-3-2
  34. Dec 27, 2017
    #34

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    Well that's my point :) Real went on to sign another full back to take his place. I rate Carvajal nowadays, but really in historic sense he hasn't got the credentials to be alongside this company. Not to mention he's up against a GOAT here in Cruyff who will beat him repeatedly and create numerical advantage for us from that side.

    He isn't a brilliant fit for a wing back either and haven't really played in such a position in his short career so far.
  35. Dec 27, 2017
    #35

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    And you aren't facing my defensive line normally either, anchored by the GOAT DM in the game :)

    The wingbacks in 5-3-2 are always a vital cog for the system. Neither of them fit the system well here, which is a problem when facing quality flanks and same quality on the other side.

    If you take Brazil 2002 for example Carlos and Cafu made it possible even with a lackluster spine with Kleberson, Edmilson and to a milder extend Gilberto Silva. Neither Leo Junior or Carvajal are notorious of pulling a one man flank job. I rate Leo Junior a lot but what he brings to the table is quite different from what is needed here.

    Especially with him there I also believe the inclusion of Modric is a bit of a tactical error instead of Simeone who could provide a more solid defensive platform in the midfield for 2mufc0.
  36. Dec 27, 2017
    #36

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    Not really Carvajal was a youth product, when given the chance he dislodged the multi million full back Real bought. It's very rare for Madrid youngsters to establish themselves there so it's quite the achievement for him to cement his space there. And it will actually be Varela on Cruyff, unless you want Cruyffs starting position to be wide on the touchline.
  37. Dec 27, 2017
    #37

    crappycraperson "Resident cricket authority" Scout

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    That's not correct. Krol is still better known as a LB rather than his later role as a CB. He is a top choice as an attacking LB.
  38. Dec 27, 2017
    #38

    Edgar Allan Pillow Ero-Sennin

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    Varela and Modric are better swapped. Junior will cut in anyways, so Modric is better placed on other flank.
  39. Dec 27, 2017
    #39

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    Imo Varela is enough to provide a defensive platform here, because of his lack of quality I don't see what Gomez is offering here, you don't have traditional wingers to cross to him, and playing long balls will bypass Rummenigge and Cruyff. Baresi will have a good time imo and will be stepping up into midfield when the opportunity rises.
  40. Dec 27, 2017
    #40

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    Varela once again will have to work his socks of in the middle. Otherwise both Vidal and Ballack will be running through your midfield. Cruyff is a wide attacker here to exploit exactly Carvajal as a weak spot and cut in creating a numerical advantage.