The Fifth Redcafe Sheep Draft SF - harms vs. Tuppet

Discussion in 'Draft Games Forum' started by green_smiley, Jan 2, 2018.

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Who would win in the following draft game with all players at their peak?

Poll closed Jan 3, 2018.
  1. Team harms

    38.2%
  2. Team Tuppet

    61.8%
  1. Jan 2, 2018
    #1

    green_smiley :lol:

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    TEAM HARMS

    [​IMG]

    VS

    TEAM TUPPET

    [​IMG]

    TACTICS HARMS

    I don't think that a big write-up is necessary in this game — should be a pretty straightforward game from a tactical point. Tuppet has, as usual, assembled an impressive team with a breathtaking Zico-Puskas duo upfront — while my side with the addition of Rijkaard became even more impressive defensively (idmanager's Dzajic-Charles-Maradona-Garrincha front four was probably even scarier than Tuppet's attack).

    My team will play in a direct counter-attacking manner, although with the amount of quality I have in midfield (and you should count Beckenbauer as a part of it — he was one of a kind specifically because of his ability to perform as a world-class midfielder and defender at the same time). Gento, Elkjær and Finney on the end of long balls from Beckenbauer, Netzer and Breitner; long-distance attempts from Breitner, Netzer etc.; smart interplay and surprising arrival of Beckenbauer, Breitner or Netzer inside the box... et cetera et cetera et cetera

    Also something that I like to highlight — 7 players out of my starting 11 scored more than 100 goals in his career: Elkjær, Finney, Gento, Netzer, Breitner, Rijkaard and Beckenbauer. The vast amount of different goalscorers should be a big plus for me — as well as different sources of creativity; you can't stop all of them, and while you're trying to contain one, the other will have his chance.

    The only glaring mismatch here is Tuppet's keeper — considering that this is an all-time draft semi-final he looks more and more like a sheep at this moment. Just a few goals that he conceded from the games on his footballia profile — not a list of his biggest career mistakes or anything. His decision-making is atrocious, he is often getting caught out of position and on 1 on 1 it almost like he tries to look less big and intimidating than he is.

    On the other hand we have Beara — one of the greatest keepers of the 20th century and a keeper that Lev Yashin, when he received his Ballon D'Or, highlighted as the best keeper in the world ("It's not me, it's Vladimir Beara").
    I've made a small compilation about him — including a worldie against England and, of course, a save of Puskas' penalty in the Olympic's final in 1952:

    Paco Gento vs Djalma Santos


    One of the most interesting individual battles will take place on the left (Tuppet's right) where Paco Gento will face Djalma Santos. On paper the decorated Brazilian looks like a good fit, but in reality in one game that they've played against each other (in 1962 World Cup) he struggled to contain him. Time after time Gento's pace saw him beating Djalma 1 on 1 — even though it was a very average Spanish side that had only 35 y.o. Puskas as a somehow credible secondary threat (35 y.o. Di Stefano stayed on the bench — surprisingly, so did Luis Suarez, maybe he had an injury). Brazil secured the victory when a late piece of genius by Garrincha made the score 2:1, but Gento's performance was sublime.

    Explanations of my players roles — some with links to mine and not mine compilations/all touch highlights:

    Vladimir Beara — world-class goalkeeper (Yashin famously said that Beara was better than him), and a match-winner for me, considering the keeper that starts for the opposition

    Franz Beckenbauer — expansive libero, the best there ever was, in his ideal position. The best player on the pitch — even counting Zico and Puskas
    Oscar Ruggeri — Ruthless and aerially dominant stopper, key to Argentina’s 1986 World Cup campaign
    Lilian Thuram — defensive right back, again, the best there ever was
    Branko Zebec — complete left fullback; experienced in all on-field roles, from center back to center forward, his pace, positioning, defensive awareness and crossing is ideally suited to the modern fullback role, capable of adjusting his role depending on the game

    Frank Rijkaard — defensive midfielder, the best there ever was. Amazing foundation for my midfield three and a perfect cover for Beckenbauer when he decides to go forward. Finished 3rd in 2 consecutive Ballon D’Or lists
    Paul Breitner — one of the best box-to-box midfielders in history, energetic, skilful, well-known for his game-winning goals. Finished as runner-up in 1981 Ballon D’Or vote
    Günter Netzer — the side’s main playmaker, well-known for his devastating partnership with Beckenbauer and Breitner for the national team. It’s hard to find a player with more precise long passes and superior vision. Also a runner up for a Ballon D’Or in 1972

    Francisco Gento — astonishingly fast and skilful winger who had won 6 European Cups and 12 league titles in his time in Madrid — all while being a key performer for their side
    Sir Thomas Finney — Bill Shankly named him the best player he ever saw; incredible player, two footed, capable of playing in every attacking position with an astonishing almost 1 in 2 goalscoring record (mostly from the wing)
    Preben Elkjær — one of the most complete forwards of all time, he possessed incredible tenacity and workrate as well as great finishing and dribbling ability


    TACTICS TUPPET

    Tactics:
    We're continuing to play in 4-2-3-1 from last round. We have upgrade our defense with Sir Bobby Moore now partnering up another legendary English defender Billy Wright to create a rock solid defense.

    Puskas / Zico - Puskas and Zico are obviously my team's best selling point as they are the two best attackers on the pitch. This gives me quite an edge, especially in goal scoring department. Since Pele / Romario are blocked Puskas is the most prolific player in the draft with an amazing 746+ goals. Those goals include goals in world cup final, Olympic final, CL finals, match of the century and various other important matches.

    And Puskas did it all while not being the sole goal scoring focus of the team. He was an excellent provider as well and an extremely creative forward. He was infact part of two partnerships with Di Stefano & Kocsis, where the other partner was an extremely prolific goal scorer as well. He also linked fantastically with all time great goal scoring number 10s in Di Stefano & Hidegkuti. Puskas sometimes fails to register as one of the greatest ever player in the history of game, so here's a cool little article from Jonathan Wilson, who described him as -

    "How great was Ferenc Puskas? Such things, necessarily, are subjective - and, particularly when you're going on video footage, almost impossible to judge - but for me he stands alongside Johan Cruyff as one of the two greatest European players of all time."

    I am aware of the solid defense that he is facing and his duel with Kaiser would probably be legendary but he is well capable of punishing even the best defenders of all time.

    This brings us to Zico, one of the all time greatest number 10 and an extremely potent goal scorer with 500+ goals to his name. Throughout his storied career he had plenty of great performances and faced some of the finest defensive midfielders like Tardelli & Souness who said about Zico - "I wanted to see how he would react to a physical challenge," the combative Scot said later. "But I couldn’t get close enough to him to find out."

    Here he is against a monster defensive midfielder in Rijkaard but again its almost impossible to keep such a twin complimentary threat of Zico & Puskas to keep quiet even if you have world class defenders. These players have proven it time and again against best defenses and highest level that you can't just completely keep such players quiet. Zico's exploits against two fine defensive setups in Italy 82 & Liverpool 81 shows that even the best defenses could be taken apart.

    Jairzinho / Giggs - Jairzinho is in his 70 WC winning role, which fits his goalscoring instinct perfectly as when Puskas drops deep or left to create chances Jairzinho along with Zico would provide the goal scoring presence up top, just like he did in 70 and scored in every single world cup match. Jairzinho against Zebec could be a profitable route for my team. Zebec is a bit of enigma, he was cleary very versatile and I have tried to read up on him as much as possible, but from what I see his best position was clearly as an attacking player, as a WF or SS. He later in his career became a successful Sweeper as well and also played in midfield. But it seem like a John Charles situation to me, where he can play in defense but he was clearly an attacker first. Here he is facing one of histories all time greatest winger, one who Facchetti even had trouble keeping up with.

    Giggs on the left side provide a genuine hard working wing presence to balance the goal scoring GOAT trio. A peak Giggs was one of the finest left wingers of all time, his balance was just amazing and as SAF said he can leave any defender in twisted blood.

    In the GOAT attacking crowd from both teams its easy to ignore the presence of Giggs but its very important here. Giggs would force Thuram wide and is exactly the kind of fleet footed, nippy attacker that Thuram would have trouble against. As a genuine wide attacker who was as comfortable at whipping crosses as cutting in and score, Giggs would not let Thuram act as an auxiliary CB, which would have been ideal for Beckenbauer. Not a big deal ofcourse but every little thing counts.

    Giggs was capable of leaving the whole defense behind to score a worldie, just like he did in this scintillanting goal against Juventus with a defense comprised of Thuram, Ferrara, Montero, Davids & Buffon -



    Masopust / Monti - Masopust would be playing as a box to box playmaker, using his impeccable technique, dribbling and finishing to both control the game when needed and arrive in the area to score. He was the best midfielder in the world and is one of the only two midfielder to have won a Ballon D'or when he dragged his team to a world cup final.

    Monti as a superlative defensive midfielder fits right next to him. The fabled Doble Ancho is the perfect destroyer to limit the impact of Laudrup. Monti's various achievements are well known in draft circles, he is along with Varela & Redondo the best SA defensive midfielder and was a great leader to boot. His world cup win where he marked great Sindelaar out of the game in SF is famous but he also led Argentina as Captain to a World cup final before that and was one of the first South American to ply their trade in Europe with Juventus where he won 4 Serie A and became their captain. This midfield provides a perfect platform for my attack and a great shield for my defense.

    Defense: This is the area we have improved a lot and have a great partnership of two of England's finest defenders and captains - Billy Wright and Bobby Moore. Moore is my ball playing defender and Billy Wright is the stopper. We all know about Moore and as a pure defender there's not much between him and Beckenbauer. At least Pele as one of the attackers who has faced both seem to think Moore was better in an interview -

    Prost Amerika: Who was the toughest defender you played against? Was it Franz Beckenbauer, Bobby Moore or maybe someone else?

    Pele: I met a lot of good defenders I played against. The difference was I played all over the world. Every place I played not with my team Santos or with Brazil, always I have one player to follow me and to stay with me. Then it was not easy because I get excellent players all over the world … but I think I can mention two in the whole of my career.

    I can mention Beckenbauer who used to play for Germany and Bobby Moore when we played against England.I think those two players. Different style because Beckenbauer used to play more to control the game but man to man, the best was Bobby Moore. No doubt.


    While Moore was the best English defender of all time, Wright was not far behind him. As a pure stopper there are few who are unquestionably better than him. Wright was the one who came second in a Ballon D'or vote, a feat later repeated by Moore as well. He was dominant in air with a prodigious leap and faced some of the all time greatest header in his career with consistently playing and holding his own against the likes of Lofthouse, Lowtawn & Charles.

    D. Santos is the GOAT right back and is playing as a usual balanced fullback role while Lizarazu was a fantastically balanced full back. Both would attack obviously when there's space in front of them but since they are facing two great wingers as well, their focus would be on defending first.

    Finally Roberto Fernandez was a brilliant GK, the second best Paraguayan GK after Chillavert with 78 international caps to his name and was part of the team that won Copa America beating a Falcao / Socrates brilliant Brazil in SF, earning the name "El Gato" for his reflexes.
  2. Jan 2, 2018
    #2

    green_smiley :lol:

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  3. Jan 2, 2018
    #3

    harms Way Staff

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    I still think that having a keeper of such quality in the all-time semi is a no go, but can't argue with Tuppet's outfield players, he has drafted a great team.

    He really wasn't.
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
  4. Jan 2, 2018
    #4

    Tuppet Banned

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  5. Jan 2, 2018
    #5

    idmanager Banned

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    Closely matched teams but Jairzinho vs Zebec can only end one way.
  6. Jan 2, 2018
    #6

    antohan gets aroused by tagline boobs

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    :lol: as soon as I saw that matchup I knew you would just press restart.

    He already stopped Garrincha, Jairzinho should be a walk in the park :p
  7. Jan 2, 2018
    #7

    idmanager Banned

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    Rest assured, its not a biased comment. I don't play drafts that way. Previous winners against me would vouch for that :)
    Zebec is not a defensive colossus down the left flank IMO, let alone one capable of handling Jairzinho.
    Don't think there was debate about it in the last game as well since the only defense provided was he stopped Kopa, who actually played through the centre along with Zebec that game which was mentioned, while Kopa scored twice when they met the next time.
  8. Jan 2, 2018
    #8

    antohan gets aroused by tagline boobs

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    Not too keen on Billy Wright, or Gato Fernández. Both frontlines dealt with relatively well though, but harms will have the upper hand in midfield and should exert greater control on the game.
  9. Jan 2, 2018
    #9

    antohan gets aroused by tagline boobs

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    Nah, it was just funny mate.

    FWIW, there aren't all that many defensive colossi at leftback. Zebec has a well defined job, the experience and credentials to be expected to put in a good shift, and in Ruggeri has excellent support from someone used to playing LCB in a two or three man defence.
  10. Jan 2, 2018
    #10

    idmanager Banned

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    Well, obviously he wasn't Paul Konchesky to make it to the semi final of an all time draft. But he was a wing back at the left for most part of his career. His defensive credentials come from his role in the centre, be it in the defense or as a really hard working SS/AM.

    Keeping aside the game and the result as such, who would you fancy winning the right wing battle?
    Finney against Lizarazu or Jairzinho against Zebec?
  11. Jan 2, 2018
    #11

    Moby Dick who hates the homeless

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    What's your source for this?
  12. Jan 2, 2018
    #12

    idmanager Banned

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    The good old internet. His PES page has some really good videos, all from an attacking side iirc.

    FYI, he has played as a LB and LWB both and among them, LWB was the position he played most in his career.
    Relative to his other positions, I am not sure how much he played as a LWB (if that is what you meant to ask)
  13. Jan 2, 2018
    #13

    antohan gets aroused by tagline boobs

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    I find all four wing battles are pretty even. Jairzinho probably has an advantage in not facing a specialist. But then, neither was Jairzinho an out and out RW.

    He is overrated if you ask me. He is called the World Cup Hurricane for a reason: he never performed at such lofty heights before or after. It was a perfect storm in both his company and the conditions the games were played in. Lovely player to watch, but 74 was more his level.
  14. Jan 2, 2018
    #14

    BeforeKeanetherewasRobson Full Member

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    "I don't think that a big write-up is necessary in this game" says @harms then proceeds to write a novel .....

    ... but STILL less than @Tuppet ? :)
  15. Jan 2, 2018
    #15

    idmanager Banned

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    That is an absurd thing to say when we are taking their peaks into account.
  16. Jan 2, 2018
    #16

    antohan gets aroused by tagline boobs

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    Couldn't tell about most of his career, but Diego Lucero (a Uruguayan journalist who was at every WC from 1934 to 1994) in his 1958 WC profiles defines him as a polivalent player, who could play anywhere except goalkeeper, but primarily plied his trade as a "carrilero izquierdo". Carrilero izquierdo is usually LWB, but could also be an attacking LB ala Cabrini.
  17. Jan 2, 2018
    #17

    harms Way Staff

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    Wholeheartedly agree, even though people will probably accuse me in bias. I'll still voice my opinion — never was a big fan of his, doesn't think that he's in Garrincha/Figo or even Robben company; and for that 1970 side Pele, Gerson, Rivelino and Carlos Alberto were better and more important, even though Jairzinho still scored a lot. In fact I believe that both of my wingers are superior, although the comparison between Elkjaer and Puskas/Zico obviously doesn't work in my favour.
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
  18. Jan 2, 2018
    #18

    antohan gets aroused by tagline boobs

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    We usually define peaks as three year peaks. 1970 WC is more a blip under exceptional circumstances than a sustained peak.
  19. Jan 2, 2018
    #19

    oneniltothearsenal Arse Lover Scout

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    That Zico-Puskas duo was looking draft winning to me but then Harms gets Rijkaard-Beckenbauer to counter which is as good as it gets. Overall Harms defense looks rock solid. But Gento-Elkjaer-Finney seems light on the goal threat for this stage while Moore really reinforces Tuppet's defense. I am surprised none of those three was upgraded on the whole reinforcement process. It looked nice tactically in the first round but just seems to lack real ooomph as my grandpaps would say.
  20. Jan 2, 2018
    #20

    BeforeKeanetherewasRobson Full Member

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  21. Jan 2, 2018
    #21

    harms Way Staff

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    I really don't agree with your image of him. Even though we've obviously used the same sources (plus I've tried to watch his games from 1954).

    But I won't argue that Zebec is on other fullbacks level — I'd put him as the worst because I've seen much more (great) games from the other three and Zebec is one of those mythical all-time greats who supposedly did everything that's humanly possible at every possible role.
  22. Jan 2, 2018
    #22

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    Surely you'd count 1970 as one of those years tho?
  23. Jan 2, 2018
    #23

    oneniltothearsenal Arse Lover Scout

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    Id is 100% correct. 1974 is well outside Jairzinho's peak (which absolutely would be between 66-70). Judging him on 74 is just wrong when that side was full of drama in their selection and very poor tactical set-up with the manager - not to mention it being 3-4 years AFTER his peak.

    Unless you consider him failing to adjust to life in France at Marseille after 13 years in Brazil in 74 before moving to Kaiser Chiefs in South Africa in 75 as part of his three year peak :lol:
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
  24. Jan 2, 2018
    #24

    harms Way Staff

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    I don't think they do — especially with Breitner and Netzer in support, who scored a lot from that midfield positions (especially Breitner). As I said, not only my front three, but 7 players out of my starting XI (probably 8, considering that we don't have Zebec' stats and he played in attack, but never mind) scored more than 100 goals in their career each.

    One of Puskas/Zico would've been a great addition to that front 4, but in a counter-attacking team I think that my unit is more than competent enough.
  25. Jan 2, 2018
    #25

    harms Way Staff

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    Yeah, I love that story @BeforeKeanetherewasRobson . Was talking not about the game itself (in which my team obviously stands a chance), but rather about the vote that went horribly wrong for me since the start. And I can't say that I blame the voters — I mean Tuppet's team (apart from the keeper) is amazing.
  26. Jan 2, 2018
    #26

    harms Way Staff

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    Sorry for the comments on the result/reinforcements, it's now looks like I have a chance - and after the first 8 votes I thought that the game was well over @Tuppet
  27. Jan 2, 2018
    #27

    oneniltothearsenal Arse Lover Scout

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    That's obviously good but if we added up Tuppet's goals they would clearly be more. I mean Zico scored more (iirc) goals just at the Maracana than Finney and Elkjaer in their careers combined (333 to 331). And Netzer is listed as having 9 goals in 85 matches for Real Madrid (not sure when you place his career peak though). I really don't think its a debate that your side lacks a lot of goal threat compared to the opposition.

    You have to rely on Rijkaard-Beckenbauer to get the win the here as a 0-1 or going 0-0 into extra time imo.
  28. Jan 2, 2018
    #28

    oneniltothearsenal Arse Lover Scout

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    Instead of apologizing how about just deleting all the comments related to the scoreline
  29. Jan 2, 2018
    #29

    Tuppet Banned

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    I usually don't comment on your knowledge of SA players, but its insane that we are somehow discounting Jairzinho now, who is probably best winger on the park. I mean its not 1970s WC, just look at various impartial orgs have rated him -

    He was in all star team and won silver medal for WC 1970, it seem really random to me that he is not considered a great winger because plenty of players are rated for mostly their WC exploits. He is the most primed to win the wing battle here.
  30. Jan 2, 2018
    #30

    2mufc0 Full Member

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    Agree, was quite shocked to read that. Jairzinho was top notch.
  31. Jan 2, 2018
    #31

    antohan gets aroused by tagline boobs

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    I'm not saying his peak was in 1974. What I'm saying is his 1974 WC persona was more akin to his peak level than 1970 WC. Projecting his 1970 performances to a sustained three year peak results in overrating him.

    Great player but far from a (positional) GOAT in my book. I rate Rivelino much much higher and he hardly gets referred to as a GOAT.
  32. Jan 2, 2018
    #32

    BeforeKeanetherewasRobson Full Member

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    Zico scored 333 goals? At the Maracana?

    Didn't know he was that prolific (at one ground).
  33. Jan 2, 2018
    #33

    oneniltothearsenal Arse Lover Scout

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    Yeah and as I pointed that would be a mistake and I disagree with that analysis completely. 74-75 was basically the nadir of his career and its about the opposite of the spirit of judging a player on his three year peak.

    Its akin to judging Elkjaer by his time at Vejle Boldklub
  34. Jan 2, 2018
    #34

    harms Way Staff

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    Of course my side has less goals than the side with Zico and Puskas, but I don't think that I lack goalthreat in a one off game, as I have multiple different potent goalthreats. Netzer's peak is earlier, at Borussia, I'd say 1970-1972, maybe include 1973 as well.

    Breitner scored 17 and 18 league goals in 30 and 29 games in 1980-1982; Finney was almost 1 in 2; Elkjaer did it in the most defensive league possible (Zico proved himself fantastically in it, but his most goals were scored in Brazil, in a free-flowing dominating sides), Puskas and Zico scored in much more attacking time (Puskas) and league (Zico).

    Preben's record for Denmark is 38 in 69, which is absolutely amazing, considering how much more did he brought on the table apart from his finishing, and the general state of Denmark's national football team pre-Laudrups. Finney has close to 1 in 2 record for both club in country from the wing (although he, like Puskas, did it in the free-scoring 50's)
  35. Jan 2, 2018
    #35

    antohan gets aroused by tagline boobs

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    Agree
  36. Jan 2, 2018
    #36

    harms Way Staff

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    Did it already.
  37. Jan 2, 2018
    #37

    antohan gets aroused by tagline boobs

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    All those things you quote are based on the 1970 World Cup.

    Chuck Miroslav Klose in the 50s and with his record he would be better than Kocsis. We don't just get to see him every four years though.
  38. Jan 2, 2018
    #38

    Tuppet Banned

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    Unless you were part of those selection committees I don't see how you can say it so decisively. By that logic we probably should discount Garrincha & Didi as well as all of their exploits I know are from World Cups.
  39. Jan 2, 2018
    #39

    harms Way Staff

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    I think that we should consider that Zebec is a good stylistic fit for him, even though there are different opinions on his quality. Jairzinho was incredible physically and did with his pace and power what Garrincha did with his constant dribbling (not saying that Jairzinho wasn't a great dribbler, but his style was more direct and physical). Zebec, who had run 100 meters in under 11 seconds and was reknown for his physical qualities looks like a good fit — again, stylistic, as you and I will definitely disagree on the player's quality comparison.
  40. Jan 2, 2018
    #40

    antohan gets aroused by tagline boobs

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    Apr 24, 2002
    Messages:
    34,931
    Location:
    Montevideo
    Well, it was his home ground :lol:

    But yeah, he was insanely prolific. Not sure how to read it though re: Puskas. Is there real synergy there or do they overlap a bit?

    I know, intelligent players, will make it work, etc. Yeah, sure won't play badly, but do they add up to the sum of parts, more, less? I don't really have a clue.