The Jones - Herrera - Smalling incident - immaturity?

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Classical Mechanic, Dec 24, 2017.

  1. Dec 24, 2017
    #1

    Classical Mechanic Full Member

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    After Smalling got injured yesterday Jones took it upon himself to rearrange the defence, bringing Lindelof into centre back.

    Gary Neville said on the commentary at the time that Jones tried to get Herrera to cover right back but he refused Jones.

    Mkhitaryan ended up there it seemed and then Smalling went down injured, came back on the pitch and reappeared at centre back which cost us the game.

    Jose branded the player's as 'immature' after the game. Does this pertain to this incident?
  2. Dec 24, 2017
    #2

    BigCaine Banned

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    If what neville says is correct, i hope mourinho gave hererra one of fergie's hairdryer treatments, word stupid does not cover it what happened in last minutes yesterday.
  3. Dec 24, 2017
    #3

    Bestietom Full Member

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    Neville is right. Smalling should have stayed off the pitch. I was very surprised with the changes and timing of them also. Martial should have stayed on the pitch, he was the only one keeping ball and getting us free kicks. Him staying on was the difference in losing and winning. IMO.
  4. Dec 24, 2017
    #4

    Walters_19_MuFc Full Member

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    Most likely, however, if Jose gave clear instructions to thee players the moment he noticed Smalling was injured, then they would have had to do it.

    As it was, it seemed that Herrera, as you said, overrulled Jones, which in hindsight, was a very amateur and selfish thing to do. Ended up costing us two points.
  5. Dec 24, 2017
    #5

    duffer Sensible and not a complete jerk like most oppo's Scout

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    If Smalling had sat down and said "I can't play, I'm too injured and would be a liability in the centre of defence" then he'd have been called a coward with not enough heart. That's what he should've done though.
  6. Dec 24, 2017
    #6

    izec Full Member

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    Immature could also be that they didnt finish off the chances and completely bottled it, you are all just speculating because of Neville’s interpretation
  7. Dec 24, 2017
    #7

    Scarecrow Having a week off

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    He did the only thing he could've done. That decision should not be made by him.

    I don't know what exactly happened, so I can't blame anyone specifically. Even if that above is true though, it only concerns the last bit of play after Smalling returned. Before that there were several stoppages where we could've adjusted but he stayed at the CB and even marked Vardy at a corner. This was right after he and Jones talked. Daft.
  8. Dec 24, 2017
    #8

    11101 Full Member

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    It's not his fault. The Captain is the Captain to make those calls, possibly with instruction from the manager. If neither of them did anything Jose can't blame the other players for trying to sort it themselves.
  9. Dec 24, 2017
    #9

    Tribec Full Member

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    Smalling should have held his hand up when injured and said I can't carry on, as Valencia did on Wednesday night. If your injured, your injured and it doesn't matter if you have used all your subs. That time with Smalling being down and then subsequently coming off would have given Jose time to reorganise the defence and they would have coped with Leicester and the late surge.

    However, blaming him for us squandering 3 points yesterday isn't totally fair, as we had the chances to score more goals than we did. We should have been out of sight by that point, and had we been I don't think Smalling would have even tried to carry on, let alone come back on when he did.
  10. Dec 24, 2017
    #10

    duffer Sensible and not a complete jerk like most oppo's Scout

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    You see players all the time gesturing to be taken off after a muscle pull.

    You can't play through certain injuries, it's not about being tough, you just can't move as well.
  11. Dec 24, 2017
    #11

    Darkhorsez Full Member

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    Agree with this. I had a mist of anger over me and I didn’t pay attention at the end. Did Pogba actually make any attempt to get things organized or give any direction?
  12. Dec 24, 2017
    #12

    IrishRedDevil Full Member

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    What does Herrera think he has the right to have a say in anything? If he was told to go to RB, the little moaner should have went there and kept his mouth shut. He offers absolutely zero in midfield anyway, so he would not have been missed. I just don't understand how a player in such dire form thinks he has the right to disagree with his teammates.

    Earlier in the season he tried to step up and take the ball off Lukaku to take a penanlty, then Jose stepped in and told Blind to go for it.

    Last night I notice Lukaku screaming at Herrera on one occasion, when he failed to play a simple pass forward. Not a normal reaction from Lukaku who is normal quiet upbeat, but the way he reacted to Herrera made me think that the players are even pissed off with his averageness now.
  13. Dec 24, 2017
    #13

    DWelbz19 Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016

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    There's absolutely no doubt this was running through his head. Especially when Mourinho has literally called him out for something like this before (at that point he actually had a broken toe, ffs.)
  14. Dec 24, 2017
    #14

    Oldyella Full Member

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    Yup. Probably by both manager and fans.
  15. Dec 24, 2017
    #15

    sugar_kane Full Member

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    Posted similar in the post game thread but essentially I think mourinho has to take the blame for the farce at the end.

    It was clear Smalling was properly injured and he never should have been sent back on.

    Given that he was he should have at least been given clear instructions to pass on to the team.

    Jose blames the players as usual but what did he do to resolve the situation?
  16. Dec 24, 2017
    #16

    Di Maria's angel Captain of Moanchester United

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    Can Smalling simply not say "I literally cannot move, I cannot carry on"? I dont buy into the "you have to play through injury" crap. It isnt that literal.
  17. Dec 24, 2017
    #17

    Trizy Full Member

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    They're grown ass men who have played football all their lives, if they seriously can't reorganize the defense without looking at the bench or disagreeing with each other there is some serious problems.

    In Sunday fecking league a CB goes forward (albeit rarely) and straight away the other CB gets someone to fill in. And these guys are professionals? ffs.
  18. Dec 24, 2017
    #18

    17Larsson Not a malefactor just a lagomorph

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    The immaturity he is referring to would be the six times they lost possession in the last four minutes when all they had to do was see out the game.
    It was like watching under 12s, not one player activated their brains
  19. Dec 24, 2017
    #19

    Foxbatt Full Member

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    If Smalling had said I can't go on yet the Manager sent him to play at CB then it is Jose's fault. But the way things happened I do not think it was the case. Other players need to know what is happening on the field and take action. If Herrera refused to go to RB as instructed by Jones he needed to be given a right old roasting.
  20. Dec 24, 2017
    #20

    Classical Mechanic Full Member

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    Jones was trying to move him out of a position of high defensive responsibility given that he couldn't move. I think Smalling should have stayed on the pitch but up top with Lukaku dropping into midfield, Hererra into defence or something.
  21. Dec 24, 2017
    #21

    Acole9 Outstanding

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    Herrera has been absolutely useless for us this season. Does anyone think he's throwing a bit of a wobbly because he didn't get the captaincy?
  22. Dec 24, 2017
    #22

    NFM New Member

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    The manager told Young what he wanted, as he was nearest player to touchline. The instructions got ignored by Herrera.
    There are several 'immature' players on the team, players who Fergie would never have let near the team, such as Martial, Herrera and Pogba. 'Twinkle toes' they might be, but that counts for little if there is a gaping hole between the ears.
    Don't blame the manager, partly because he has to play some of these guys because of lack of alternatives, but also it doesn't matter how many times you train someone who is basically thick, they remain basically thick. However Fergie would never, never have paid a kings ransom to get Pogba back, however 'clever' he might sometimes be, he is a luxury few teams can afford to carry.
    Its no surprise to see a team against West Brom with 7 out of 11 players still from the Fergie era, United have wasted a fortune on poor team players, maybe have individual skills, but no backbone and poor team intelligence.
    No sticky plasters this time please Board, in the next two years you have to back this manager to bring in the 'right stuff' to make a proper team, no short cuts will work, it takes time.
  23. Dec 24, 2017
    #23

    el3mel Full Member

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    Even though the whole second goal was a real mess it's not the main reason we dropped 2 points. We should have been up by 3 goals at least by this time.

    This game is 99% on our attack, 1% on anything else.
  24. Dec 24, 2017
    #24

    Aint gota Kalou Full Member

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    Mourinho had more than enough time to instruct the players what to do. I really don't understand why he didn't do anything.

    Or if Herrera ignored instructions then he should be dropped for the forseeable future. He got credit for doing it in the EL Final but that made sense.
  25. Dec 24, 2017
    #25

    MJJ Full Member

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    Remember the whole mourinho crap of players being cowards aimed at Jones and smalling? Yesterday was the result of that.
  26. Dec 24, 2017
    #26

    Oldyella Full Member

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    True. I'm sure with another game so close behind as well, we will get a feel for what Jose really thinks when we see that team.
  27. Dec 24, 2017
    #27

    Sassy Colin Death or the gladioli!

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    The state of this post.

    Notwithstanding that it is completely off topic, you think that our 2 best players shouldn't be in the team?

    Good grief.
  28. Dec 24, 2017
    #28

    NFM New Member

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    This is what the manager said. However his comments about maturity apply as much if not more to attackers, which again what he said. Wrong decisions made, or none made at all, stopped good counter-attacking opportunities and goal attempts in the area. The 'competition' between Rashford and Martial is bad for both, they are trying to impress too much individually to the detriment of the team. Rashford has been brought up well through the youth ranks, the more he plays with or instead of Martial, the more bad habits he seems to get from him. Selling Martial will release funds for a decent winger, release Rashford to fulfill his potential, and make the team a better 'team'.
  29. Dec 24, 2017
    #29

    Romez New Member

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    Mourinho literally publicly called Smalling and Jones out for not playing through the pain before.
  30. Dec 24, 2017
    #30

    sherrinford Full Member

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    There is absolutely nothing wrong with the players organising themselves and Herrera is entitled to his opinion as with any other player. Mourinho could have made the decision for them but there’s also absolutely nothing wrong with leaving it to the players to sort out for the few remaining minutes either. Jose alluded to the fact he had trusted them to do that in his post-match interview, and that the players disappointed (immaturity - at both ends of the pitch).

    Whatever was said between the players, Jones, Herrera or Mkhitaryan did not cost the team the win. Words were exchanged and the side was reorganised, only for Young to lose his man at the back post. He never tracked the run, knowing that his injured teammate was next to him, and his man scored. So the fault for the goal, and for us not winning the game, lies largely at his feet.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 24, 2017
  31. Dec 24, 2017
    #31

    Sparky Rhiwabon Full Member

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    Total lack of leadership. Who was captain? Smalling (or someone) should have taken control there and said Lindy - take my place, Herrera - get the f*ck to right back. And then Smalling could station himself up front or something where he can't do much damage (or off the pitch - it would have been 10 vs 10 anyway). To end up in a situation where Smalling was trying to mark Maguire, who is great in those situations, was beyond insane.
  32. Dec 24, 2017
    #32

    Wednesday at Stoke Full Member

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    Smalling should have gone to either wing or forward and stayed there. Herrera should have dropped back, Matic and pogba should have run the ball to the side flag instead of trying to play into the box and lose possession.

    All of that was immature, avoidable and stupid.

    Fergie roasted Nani for a similar mistake in a cup game at Chelsea.
  33. Dec 24, 2017
    #33

    United never give up Banned

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    Hope the Herrera tough guy act has gone - he's a coward and is no more a Manchester United player than I am.

    Still haven't forgiven him for getting picked up by Mark Noble and letting him toss him off the pitch.
  34. Dec 24, 2017
    #34

    NFM New Member

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    They are not our 'best players' and no where near. You confuse occasional flashes of brilliance as individuals, with the mentality and consistency required as a top team player. Its the combining of those attributes that distinguishes the 'greats' from the mediocre. Martial in particular is a luxury United cannot afford at this time, and Pogba is just a luxury that probably would fit into Madrid's ethos but not United's, it would be utterly stupid to have him as the fulcrum of a team. In this I totally agree with Souness ( and Fergie before him).
  35. Dec 24, 2017
    #35

    dichinero Banned

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    Hey Neville, come diffuse this bomb you've planted here.
  36. Dec 24, 2017
    #36

    Bojan11 Full Member

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    If they are not our best outfield players then I want to know who you think are.
  37. Dec 24, 2017
    #37

    sullydnl Ross Kemp's caf ID

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    Smalling should have been moved to a less dangerous position. If the manager doesn't do that then the teams' leaders should have sorted it themselves. Herrera is obviously one given he's ordered players about before, Jones might be another as is Smalling himself. I don't know if it was immaturity, stupidity or if they just disagreed on what should be done but either way they fecked up.
  38. Dec 24, 2017
    #38

    Irrational. Full Member

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    Herrera is beyond stupid. Why he didn't follow Jones' instruction is beyond me. Hope he got both barrels from Jose yesterday.
  39. Dec 24, 2017
    #39

    DoubleRevv New Member

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    Now you are just making this up. You need some time to cool off.
  40. Dec 24, 2017
    #40

    NFM New Member

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    That's easy, all the old Fergie era players whenever they play, all the guys that so many deemed to be 'deadwood' on this site. Plus Matic. Lindelof looks OK now he's settled. But all the Moyes, LvG buys plus Mikhi should be shown the door, quickly.
    United need some intelligent team players, plus either one 'genius' attacker or two very good ones.