The kids

Discussion in 'Reserve/Youth Forum' started by kanchelskis14, Aug 5, 2006.

  1. Aug 6, 2006
    #41

    Striker10 "Ronaldo and trophies > Manchester United football

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    I think simpson will make it, he's been brilliant so far in pre season, Johnny evans, gerard pique, Bardsleys basically a stuck on cert I agree with the poster who said that, Martin will improve even more with a loan spell at rangers, gibson looks a well built player with youth on his site, I fear abit for richie jones don't think he'll quite make it. Rossi is just unbelievable. Not just his goals but the way he get's stuck in makes the sale of ruud more understandable. Frazer campbell might also come through and a few others. There's so many it's not funny. Now i'm worried how the feck are we gonna fit them all in....:D

    ps: Anyone that's watched the reserves last two seasons knows the quality and it's there. The 7 trophies in 2 years with mixed reserve teams shows they want to win and they play excellent football. They just need to toughen up for the premiership.

    pps: Fletcher in the centre was excellent last night. Hopefully he can maintain that level then we really do have a player
  2. Aug 6, 2006
    #42

    Fortitude Full Member

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    No. The difference is, we actually have a current crop to be raving about. These are not Wallwork's, Greenings and Chadwick's. These are kids who have been very impressive and are winning things at lower levels and continuing that development. I think there is a big difference, this is a bunch to actually get excited about.
  3. Aug 6, 2006
    #43

    Davo Full Member

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    They are kids who have stood out at their level, and the joke that is reserve football thesedays. The Chadwick's, Greenings did the same, and were equally built up.

    It's neverending
  4. Aug 6, 2006
    #44

    WeasteDevil Guest

    Greening has the same number of European Cup winners medals as Gerrard does.
  5. Aug 6, 2006
    #45

    Fortitude Full Member

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    That just suggests you haven't watched them, because if you have, that's a stupid statement to make. The kids have been performing at the level they showed yesterday for a while and anyone who watches them in the reserves knew that. As I said before, they can only go up against what is in front of them and to date, they have looked the business against who they have played against. You can ask no more of them then that.
  6. Aug 6, 2006
    #46

    Mr. MUJAC Talent spotter

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    Louis Rocca started it all...
    We beat Celtic with our kids........then 9 men played incredibly maturely against Porto............then our kids beat Ajax.....

    Club in crisis eh...........

    The future looks good......you cant argue with results......

    But please keep saying we aren't good enough...... I love it.....everyone just makes complete fools of themselves......

    As for Liverpool.......five European Cups....only seven home grown players in the teams........!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Look in the mirror.......
  7. Aug 6, 2006
    #47

    golden_blunder mijn naam is Golden Blunder en ik hou van team LVG

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    well said Tony. ok, preseason results have no real bearing on the season to come but at least it shows us who can potentially make the stepup.

    Rossi is too good for the reserves, that much is clear, personally i think he could benefit from a season out onloan though. Somewhere like Norwich where they play a passing style
  8. Aug 6, 2006
    #48

    Davo Full Member

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    I've been seeing responses like that since I joined the Caf, it's only the names that change....
  9. Aug 6, 2006
    #49

    Fortitude Full Member

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    No you haven't. Certainly not from so many people. You sound sour Davo. No class youngsters coming through at your place or summat?
  10. Aug 6, 2006
    #50

    Davo Full Member

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    I have. I'm not having a pop and this isn't exclusive to manc fans - a lot of Reds get a lot more excited about some of our kids than I do...for everyone that makes it, there'll be a shedload of those that don't, and this will include players who've looked promising in the youths/reserves.

    Just because you may not have been personally claiming that Chadwick "was the new Beckham" doesn't mean it didn't happen, it did.
  11. Aug 6, 2006
    #51

    Fortitude Full Member

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    But no one here has claimed anything of these kids, they've just said they've played very well, which they have. If you can't be happy about what your club produces football would be a very sour sport indeed.
  12. Aug 6, 2006
    #52

    Davo Full Member

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    There's numerous claims as to how good the kids will be, as ever.

    I'm merely injecting a bit of realism
  13. Aug 6, 2006
    #53

    Fortitude Full Member

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    You're not though. You're coming off as sour. Anyone with any common sense knows the kids call fall off anywhere on the journey to the 1st team. They just look very impressive at this moment in time, which you cannot deny.

    Performances like Evans' last night deserve praise, he earnt it.
  14. Aug 6, 2006
    #54

    Davo Full Member

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    Calling me sour doesn't change the fact that this is something of a recurring event on here, with only the names changing.

    And no, praising a player's performance is obviously fine. However, a decent performance in a friendly/reserve game quickly becomes evidence that XXXX is going to be a top player. This hasn't happened with any of the "Future stars" since I joined the forum....
  15. Aug 6, 2006
    #55

    Fortitude Full Member

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    Of course it is sour. You revel in the performance of your own homegrowns. If they have a good game, praise them. Which is what I see happening here. I think Evans' performance was more than decent... no matter. I happen to think he'll make it here, is that wrong of me?

    The success rate will be low, but once in a while a gem comes through. If you can't be optimistic about them then what's the point of even mentioning them?
  16. Aug 6, 2006
    #56

    greater wall Full Member

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    United fans have been bought up on the busby babes and then since Ferguson has been manager there have been a number of players coming through to the first team. A lot has been written about the players like Giggs, Scholes, Becks etc and in the midst of time it feels like they suddenly just appeared and starting winning titles. The reality was that some were put in one or two years previously and then others were added in to be given some substitute experience until 1996 when some experienced players were sold and the younger ones were asked to be the first team. Players like Brown and O'Shea have also played in the first team so United have been good at producing players that can play in the premiership and at a high level.
    There are a number of similarities now as well as a couple of players have been thrown in for a couple of years and there will be a couple more in the next couple of years, players like Rossi and Pique will end up playing in the first team sooner rather than later. There are a number of players who have the potential to be premiership players so it is exciting to see them develop. Ofcourse not everyone can have the stellar careers, that is the reality. When asked to compare players from the youth setups they invariably get compared to a current top player or sometime a footballing great and then people get disappointed if the player does not perform like Maradona at his best. Even Maradona struggled in his earlier career because of his build.
    As players play at higher tempos against stronger and more clever/talented opponents some will find that their level is not good enough and will find other clubs and that will happen anywhere. The difference is the number of promising players at the moment and that is something worth being optimistic about.
  17. Aug 6, 2006
    #57

    kanchelskis14 Banned

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    You know what, Davo's spot on in his assessment i think. People need to actually read what people post instead of a reflex answer like ' like Pennant' etc.

    The truth is we've always had 'exciting' youngsters. With every crop we claim they are different to the last, Nardiello was different to Webber, Johnson was different to Nardiello, and now i'm guessing Campbell is different to Johnson. The fact is, as much as people go on about our tradition with kids, i honestly think United will always go out and buy a reputable player when there is a need in the team.

    I feel we have some good youngsters, after all, i started this thread. But i know not many will be United first teamers. It's simple, for example, people, myself included, have been raving about Evans lately, but the fact is, in four years from now, he'll be 22. There is no way Evans, Pique, Vidic, Brown, Rio and Heinze will all be in the first team. Evans and Pique won't be in the reserves at 22, so there's a good chance they'll ask to leave, if they haven't left already, because they want to play football, which they can't do with Rio, Vidic and Brown about, the oldest of whom is around 32 by that time. That's generally how it works i feel.

    I think this is partly why people make a fuss about Fletch making it into the team so easily, saying stuff about him being a Fergie fave due to nationality etc. I personally feel that he hasn't been our best young midfielder since 92', but it seemed Fergie was almost insistent that he HAD to make it with us. He didn't go the route that all the other youngsters who were at least equally as promising and go out on loan here and there. He was supposed to play at 16 even. Made a Champions League start very early. And yet the jury is still out. I feel this type of treatment is only acceptable if we are talking about a Fabregas or something, but for what Fletch has shown, surely David Fox, Markus Neumayr, David Jones or Ritchie Jones would not have fared inferior after so many games?

    I reckon we should treat some of our youngsters like the Spanish and Italian teams do, either let them sign for other Prem teams and develop there until ready, or own 50% in them or something but let them play. I reckon Rossi for example, could well be a player we'd be looking to buy for about £15m by now if he came through the ranks at say, Blackburn,Fulham or Villa. He could have had a full season in the league under his belt by now possibly, but we have such top quality at Old Trafford it's been hard for him to get games. I've said several times before, i doubt Rooney would be exactly where he is today if he came through our academy, he definately wouldn't have been playing in the league at 16 etc. He would have had a few loan spells and Carling Cup games maybe, and probably find himself in a similar position to Rossi now, with us thinking whether to loan him out again and sign some shite like Kuyt for the here and now.

    Perhaps a bit cynical, but an honest view of mine. As i said, fundamentally, i think we have a lot of quality here, but ultimately we may have become too big and our ambitions and expectations to large for them to get a proper run in the side, due to the hunger for success of the fans, directors/Glazers, and even commercial interests.
  18. Aug 6, 2006
    #58

    Davo Full Member

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    I'm not talking about praising performances, what makes you think I am?

    I'm saying that given the modern game, it's very difficult for kids from the youth system to make it. And that recent evidence backs up a cautious view as to how these players will fare..

    The ability to see reserve games etc on tv thesedays has only added to these daft claims of greatness

    Someone told me on here that Rossi was better than Defoe the other day. Not could be better, actually is better....now.
  19. Aug 6, 2006
    #59

    Fortitude Full Member

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    You don't seem to understand why the reserves come through when they do or what keeps them back and stops them ever becoming top class. Rossi was not physically ready to start in the PL before this season. It would have been asking for trouble to play him. In many cases the lads in the reserves are still not built like men - only Evans, Gibson and Bardsley come to mind as players who at 18 are built enough to go straight into the PL. David Jones' physique held him back for years and it is the same for a number of very talented kids just coming through now. If they were built like the Rooney's and Ronaldo's of the man-boy world, they would have gotten chances before now. It's not always purely about talent. This isn't Spain. You need the appropriate build and height for your position.
  20. Aug 6, 2006
    #60

    Davo Full Member

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    You also need the ability, to perform at the highest level...not in a reserve game against other kids and out of favour pros who aren't interested.

    The names that have been cycled around since I've been here haven't had that...
  21. Aug 6, 2006
    #61

    Fortitude Full Member

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    But anyone with sense should know there are pitfalls. Also, a club the size and stature of United is only going to take the cream of the crop, but there seems to be plenty of cream to chose from... you're writing them off before they've even played a first team game, apparently.. that makes you sound sour. I say again, if you can't be proud of what you produce then what's the point of even mentioning them? We have a history of bringing kids through, what makes you think this bunch will be any different? Or do you think Evans is shite and the praise is unwarranted?
  22. Aug 6, 2006
    #62

    VanNistelrater Poncey film buff

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    The problem in the past with kids is that they have been fantastic at reserve level and then just struggled to make the step up to play for a club of the majesty of MUFC, to play in front of huge crowds against bigger teams etc. Technical ability has rarely been in doubt, it's largely mental aptitude that defines whether a kid will make it or not I think.

    The fact that so many of them can put in a performance like that yesterday, with so few first team players around them on a stage like that against some of the better players in Holland (Huntaleer 33 goals in 30 games) in front of 50,000 people suggests to anyone that there is a good chance they have the mental ability to make the step up. Yesterday was a big test for them and they passed with flying colours. I dont think all will make it, but anyone capable of putting in performances like Evans, Rossi or Martin did particularly on that stage is certainly as promising as a player can be at that age.

    Davo basically doesnt like it because he's worried.
  23. Aug 6, 2006
    #63

    kanchelskis14 Banned

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    So why did Eddie Johnson not get a chance, despite scoring a ridiculous amount in the reserves?

    And why was Fletcher put into the first team to sort out his physical development there? All this shite about 'when he fills out' etc. We could put any scrwny kid in the side at 18 and say that then.
  24. Aug 6, 2006
    #64

    Fortitude Full Member

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    Didn't the kids you're slating just come away from the Amsterdam tournament as winners? At 18 years old? They can only perform against what is in front of them, and unlike the names you think have been cycled around (I highly doubt they were to any extent unless you show me the posts) these kids have a history of winning and very high performance. Why do you think Le Guen wants Evans and Martin to slot straight into his first team?? Because he think they're shite, or because they have something to offer at 18 and 19 years old?
  25. Aug 6, 2006
    #65

    Davo Full Member

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    I'm not writing them off, I've hardly seen anything of them - and by that I mean playing proper first team matches.

    But the chances are that none of them will make it. Once again, this has happened in a continous cycle since I joined the Caf. Based on this, can you see why I think as I do?

    It's you who thinks this bunch of kids will be any different. I think they'll end up exactly the same as the last lot...
  26. Aug 6, 2006
    #66

    Fortitude Full Member

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    What on earth does Eddie Johnson have to do with what I posted? Explain...

    Fletcher is a special case.... Only the manager knows why on that score. Outside of him there are no examples of under-developed kids getting a chance.
  27. Aug 6, 2006
    #67

    Davo Full Member

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    It's a pre-season tournament.

    I admire your mis-placed optimism mind...
  28. Aug 6, 2006
    #68

    kanchelskis14 Banned

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    Eddie Johnson is built like Rooney, that's what he has to do with it.
  29. Aug 6, 2006
    #69

    Fortitude Full Member

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    Who is 'the last lot'? Feel free to show me as many posts about them as there are about the new bunch. I think you're exaggerating.
  30. Aug 6, 2006
    #70

    Davo Full Member

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    Fletcher is a special case. He's one of only 2 players who can claim to have made it into the first team since I arrived on the forum.

    He's a very poor midfielder, and is a constant target for abuse and criticism from your own fans....

    He was another who was going to be a world-beater...
  31. Aug 6, 2006
    #71

    Fortitude Full Member

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    You didn't answer my Le Guen question. In fact, you completely ducked it. Does he think 'these kids are shite, better not enquire about them, they'll never make it here?'
  32. Aug 6, 2006
    #72

    Davo Full Member

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    Just do a search on the forum. Use names such as..

    Eagles
    Chadwick
    McShane
    Spector
    Blake
    Johnson
    Fox
    Timms

    There's been loads of others....
  33. Aug 6, 2006
    #73

    Fortitude Full Member

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    See, do you think there is a difference between the quality of Rossi and the quality of Johnson? I am sure you didn't watch him play...just read about the numbers. Your argument could extend to Ebanks-Blake who was also scoring lots at reserve level...anyone who saw his performances compared to Rossi wouldn't say he's going to ever usurp a player like Saha or RVN...
  34. Aug 6, 2006
    #74

    Davo Full Member

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    How do you know Le Guen wants them for the first team? He may be looking to get cover for his squad, I don't even know if he wants them...

    This is no way backs up a theory that these kids are going to make it....
  35. Aug 6, 2006
    #75

    Fortitude Full Member

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    You're just listing a bunch of names. Show me a thread for any one of them that raves about them the same way Evans is getting right now.
  36. Aug 6, 2006
    #76

    Davo Full Member

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    If Rossi fails, someone will be claiming that the latest striker on the scene is better than him...and will succeed.

    This is how it works
  37. Aug 6, 2006
    #77

    Davo Full Member

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    I'm listing a bunch of names that posters on here have claimed to be future stars....do a search

    How long have you been here?
  38. Aug 6, 2006
    #78

    Fortitude Full Member

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    You're reaching... he asked for both of them and if he can't get them he will go out and buy players for his first team. And it says a lot that he wants them, it hardly backs up what you're saying. If he thought like you do, why would he even enquire?
  39. Aug 6, 2006
    #79

    kanchelskis14 Banned

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    I disagree, i saw several posters saying how great Blake and Johnson were on here. Do a forum search if you want.
  40. Aug 6, 2006
    #80

    Fortitude Full Member

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    No, if what you're saying is true it should take you two seconds to show me. I simply don't believe any of those names listed were getting compared to a young Buchan or the like. I've been here 4yrs.

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