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The "monster" that kills little kids?

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Gandalf Greyhame, Mar 11, 2018.

  1. Mar 11, 2018
    #1

    Gandalf Greyhame Full Member

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    "Saving with hands is too mainstream." - DDG
    I was looking up numbers with respect to Jose and the opportunities he's given to youngsters and academy graduates, as well as the improvements he's brought about in them.


    [​IMG]

    Rashford, Martial and Lingard have all better output this season, compared to last, and we still have two months of football left. McTominay has clearly been trusted with quite a few chances this season compared to last. The ones who have seen a drop in first-team appearances so far as compared to last season, are Shaw, Tuanzebe, TFM and Mitchell - the latter three of which are out on loan gaining experience. I expect Tuanzebe and TFM to get more opportunities next season, based on where and how they are playing right now.

    I think Jose's doing pretty well with the kids, who are benefiting from the ushering out of Rooney and the injury to Zlatan. I'm excited to see Joel Pereira, Angel Gomes, Tahith Chong and the likes get opportunities in the future, and I believe that if Jose's around for a couple of seasons - these kids will definitely feature for the first team. It'll also be interesting to see how Andreas Pereira's future pans out - I think he has some serious potential.

    So what do you think of the little kids, and the monster that kills them?
  2. Mar 11, 2018
    #2

    amolbhatia50k Sneaky bum time

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    That full stop in the title is killing the little kid inside me.
  3. Mar 11, 2018
    #3

    Penna Kind Moderator (with a bit of a mean streak) Staff

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    I'll sort that out for you. :)
  4. Mar 11, 2018
    #4

    Rifer Full Member

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    How dare he. Sack Mourinho. .
  5. Mar 11, 2018
    #5

    JB08 Searches for nude pics of Marcos Rojo

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    I mean, it's hardly astonishing stuff, in fairness. But better than some other managers. I do like that he seems to have total faith in McTominay, and he's proven his manager right thus far.
  6. Mar 11, 2018
    #6

    Snow Somewhere down the lane, a licky boom boom down

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    I don't think a 24 year old established player Lingard or 23 year old established international 84m man Pogba count. And that's last season ages.
  7. Mar 11, 2018
    #7

    Rifer Full Member

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    "Minutes played in total" of appearances instead of just "no. of appearances" would be a fairer evaluation, since it's a lot easy to rack up the digits of numbers eg. LVG literally did gave Pereira about 3-5 games (don't remember exact no.) for his first "debut" season which sounds good but in reality about 1-2 mins per game at the dying minute, hardly a good appearances at all.

    That aside, appearances of Pogba being much lower has to do with his big injuries early on, then red card suspension, then illness and recently an injury. That and Herrera's form and Fellaini's injuries play some parts in boosting McTominay's high jump of appearances (credit to Scott too of course for taking the chances and hold it). Shaw's appearances has to do with Young's consistent overall good form this season easily the first option, while him being 2nd choice isn't bad. Additionally, we have problems with our LB last season, hence the constant chop and change before settling with Darmian mostly, which explained Shaw making slightly more appearances than this season.

    :devil: Player's improvement, Jose is a hard trainer.
    • Pogba's second season, more settle, he've always been capable of making 10+ assist, 14 is his best tally so far in his career.
    • Lingard suddenly become Messe Lingod, improving one thing which is missing prev - consistent finishing.
    • Martial is "more settle" this season, improved and playing a lot better, potential is scary this guy.
    • Rashford is always going to improve, and the more he improves and perform better at trainings, the more it'll translate onto his game performances and goal/assist.
    Would also include Bailly and Lindelof. Additionally, Lukaku, but Romelu being the oldest of this bunch is pushing the barrier out a bit.

    Good thread OP.

    Joshua Harrop should also be included I feel.
  8. Mar 11, 2018
    #8

    Trizy Full Member

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    Hope we see Chong and Gomes next season.
  9. Mar 11, 2018
    #9

    Dec9003 Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016

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    Surpised at McTominay already having 17 appearances, could easily push 30 appearances this season for us and I couldn't be happier with how he's done so far.
  10. Mar 11, 2018
    #10

    Kag Full Member

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    There slightly bigger issues with the title...
  11. Mar 11, 2018
    #11

    kundalini Full Member

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    When Mourinho arrived, he inherited the following youngsters who had first team experience under LVG:

    Rashford - tons of faith in him, though could have trusted him with the main striker role rather than recruiting Zlatan then Lukaku. Difficult to tell whether he would have been better or worse than them.

    Borthwick-Jackson - immediately sent out on loan. Despite looking composed during his time in the United first team, his loan spells at Wolves and Leeds have been total failures.

    Fosu-Mensah - Kept him around for a season. 323 mins playing time. Looked nowhere near as impressive as under LVG. Sent on loan to Palace. Generally done reasonably well there.

    Andreas Pereira - sent out on loan for a season, then Pereira chose a 2nd season on loan rather than spend a big chunk of this season on the bench, or failing to make the bench.

    Joe Riley - in U23s.

    McNair - Mourinho wanted him to go out on loan. McNair insisted that he be sold. Serious injury fairly early in his Sunderland career.

    James Wilson - Sent out on loan. Serious injury. Was in the U23s in the autumn then back out on loan.

    Januzaj - Sent out on loan to Sunderland. Sold last summer after an unsuccessful loan spell. Form for Real Sociedad doesn't scream clear error, at this stage.

    Blackett - sold to Reading soon after Mourinho took over. Regular starter last season but no signs that it was a mistake to let him go.

    Donald Love - sold to Sunderland soon after Mourinho took over. Gets occasional starts for them.

    Will Keane - sold to Hull soon after Mourinho took over. Suffered another awful injury.

    James Weir - sold to Hull. Barely featured for them. Suffered a bad injury this season.

    Then Mourinho gave first team debuts to:

    Tuanzebe - 4 PL starts at the end of last season, one as a right-back against Arsenal marking Sanchez, then 3 as a holding midfielder. One start in the League Cup this season then sent out on loan.

    Demi Mitchell - Impressed against Palace, not so great on pre-season tour. Spent first half of this season as U23s best player then out on loan to Hearts. Several man of the match awards for Hearts.

    Josh Harrop - Scored super goal against Palace then opted to join Preston. Done ok for them but nothing that would suggest he should have been given more opportunities here.

    Joel Pereira - Started against Palace.

    Angel Gomes - 2 brief sub appearances. One last season, one this.

    McTominay - seems to have taken a while for Scott to earn Mourinho's trust but clearly reached the stage where he feels comfortable selecting him in big games.

    Overall, Mourinho has not shown great faith in United's youngsters but equally, very few of those who have left, either on loan or sold, have made a convincing case that he made a mistake. Even the successful loans, such as Andreas Pereira's season at Grenada and TFM at Palace, have looked like players developing, gaining experience that might make them of value to United in the future.

    Pretty clear now that young players have to earn Mourinho's trust.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2018
  12. Mar 11, 2018
    #12

    el3mel Full Member

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    That was a myth from the start anyway. Some were even saying he's playing Scott only in meaningless games.
  13. Mar 11, 2018
    #13

    deafepl Full Member

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    You forgot Harrop left United for Preston North End.
  14. Mar 11, 2018
    #14

    Sterling Archer Full Member

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    Not shown great faith? What was your expectation exactly? I think Jose has been more than good to youngsters considering we want to be competing for the Premier League and CL first, giving first team minutes to academy players second.

    I’ve seen Rashford continue to get chances. I’ve seen the established foreign import - Mikhi- shipped out as the academy grad, Lingard, has gained the manager’s trust and blossomed. I’ve seen our 80 million pound midfielder, albeit former youth player, benched and another academy product , Scott, step in and perform in crucial CL knockouts and league games.

    That’s no less opportunity than SAF ever provided to our youth. If we have another class of 92 then I would expect Jose to give them the same fair treatment. But we don’t. And likely won’t so I hope the expectation isn’t to see half our first team be under 25 yr old Mancunians. We are quite fortunate to be a good team now w Scott, Jesse and Rashford all in contention to start the same matches together.
  15. Mar 11, 2018
    #15

    VeevaVee despite the protests, wears Ugg boots

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    Very happy with what he's done with young players so far. Fergie wouldn't have done much more, and Jose has had to deal with an absolute mess.
  16. Mar 11, 2018
    #16

    Arbitrium Full Member

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  17. Mar 11, 2018
    #17

    NinjaZombie Punched the air when Liverpool beat City

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    Ander for captain.
  18. Mar 12, 2018
    #18

    AR87 Full Member

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    Possible to show progress without winning the PL
  19. Mar 12, 2018
    #19

    AshRK Full Member

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    Jose has shown more faith to youngsters than Pep has at city.
  20. Mar 12, 2018
    #20

    MyOnlySolskjaer Creator of Player Performance threads

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    Quite a few Chelsea fans are pissed because of the amount of game time he's showing our (in their words) "average youth players" like McTominay and Rashford when he shunned Ruben-Loftus Cheek, De Bruyne and Salah. Some think that he's more focused on long-term career at United than he was at Chelsea.
  21. Mar 12, 2018
    #21

    bond19821982 Full Member

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    Thats surely down to contract terms set by our board? We take pride in getting our youngsters plenty of game time without compromising on trophies while only results matters for Roman ( ofcourse I am assuming what happened at chelsea)
  22. Mar 12, 2018
    #22

    Mr PG New Member

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    I like Jose but to be fair... experienced players get a lot more leeway than youngsters... until they don’t. Rashford hasn’t started for 3 mths while Alexis hasn’t justified his starting spot at all. I hope to see a better balance with Rashford, Jesse and Martial getting more chances. No start for 3 mths is not good for Rashford’s development I’m sorry...but I trust Jose to eventually get the balance right.
  23. Mar 12, 2018
    #23

    AR87 Full Member

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    No Chelsea manager is going to focus on the long-term when they know their job is wholly dependent on delivering results in the short-term consistently.
  24. Mar 12, 2018
    #24

    AR87 Full Member

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    Rashford hasn't started because other attackers were in better form than him and he was truly appalling in some of his appearances. I also believe he looked knackered and Mourino cut his minutes down to recharge his batteries. He looked back to his physical best against Palace in the 2nd half and walked straight back into the XI against Liverpool. Mourinho will pick Rashford when his performances warrant it, as it should be.
  25. Mar 12, 2018
    #25

    NinjaZombie Punched the air when Liverpool beat City

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    If that was the case, Mkhitaryan would still be stinking the place up.
  26. Mar 12, 2018
    #26

    roonster09 Full Member

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    If you are talking about only PL. He stared both FA cup games and was injured for few games.
  27. Mar 12, 2018
    #27

    Mr PG New Member

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    You either didn’t read or didn’t understand my post
  28. Mar 12, 2018
    #28

    NinjaZombie Punched the air when Liverpool beat City

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    No, you said experienced players get more leeway. I disagree with that statement. Mkhitaryan has been sold for his poor performances. Mourinho has also gotten rid of or left out various other players more experienced than Rashford.

    He was dropped because of his poor performances. It's as simple as that. If anything, by holding him up to higher standards, Mourinho can be said to be developing Rashford as well.
  29. Mar 12, 2018
    #29

    Drawfull Full Member

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    Garth Crooks having a pop at Mourinho re kids:

    "Marcus Rashford's lack of starts for Manchester United this season should not affect his chances of playing for England at the World Cup, says manager Jose Mourinho. But it will. The 20-year-old started his first Premier League game against Liverpool since Boxing Day. But Mourinho said Rashford is a key player at United and always "starts or is on the bench". As if any of that rhetoric will have any bearing on the harsh reality facing Marcus Rashford and Jesse Lingard for that matter.

    Mourinho has their careers in the palm of his hand and he is slowly squeezing the life out of both these boys. We know Mourinho has 'previous' when it comes to this kind of activity. He totally dismissed the potential of Kevin de Bruyne, Mo Salah and even Romelu Lukaku while manager of Chelsea.

    Rashford has won 15 international caps and scored on his debut in May 2016. Despite his lack of recent starts Rashford has still managed to score 12 goals in 39 games for United this season in all competitions, including substitute appearances. If Mourinho continues to insist on Rashford and Lingard remaining on the bench then they should leave United. It may break their hearts but they cannot afford to stick around a moment longer."
  30. Mar 12, 2018
    #30

    Rashford2good Banned

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    Garth crooks? What has he ever done in the game? Saying rashford and jessi should leave us is completely ignoring the fact that every player gets benched once in a while. You'd think he was this fantastic ex pro the way he goes on when in essence he was a journey man which shows in his ramblings.
  31. Mar 12, 2018
    #31

    Lawman Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016

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    Wow how did you come up with that conclusion as your post points to him showing faith to the youngsters. Not Jose’s fault some have not been good enough. Think maybe a comparison to other managers of the top six with regards playing academy graduates would better highlight this.
  32. Mar 12, 2018
    #32

    BenjaminP Banned

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    If not for Jose, other managers with this current United squad will give less game time for Rashford. Half moan when Martial isn't starting, the other do the same when Rashford isn't starting.
  33. Mar 12, 2018
    #33

    haram Full Member

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    If it wasn’t for Jose, Lingard might not even be in contention for a World Cup place. These pundits talk absolute garbage. It’s Garth Crooks though, I’m not suprised.
  34. Mar 12, 2018
    #34

    hasanejaz88 Full Member

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    From what I can recollect about Mourinho before United and currently at United, I don't think he'l play youngsters for the sake of them being youngsters. It is different from Sir Alex (and some other managers), who I felt kept more faith in his younger players and was, more importantly, more patient with them. We saw this with players like Fletcher and Evans who weren't great when they initially came into the team but grew the more starts they got and ultimately became important parts of our successful squad in the late 00's.

    Mourinho, if he doesn't trust the youngster, will not play him until he gains that trust and confidence in his ability. I don't think Mourinho plays with the 'potential' mindset that would make him play an underperforming youngster in the hope that those initial starts will develop him into a better player in the future; if you're not good enough right now then you simply won't start. That's shown in how few opportunities he gave De Bruyne, Salah, Lukaku while at Chelsea and also the time when Rashford was out of the team due to his underperformance (and also preferring some senior players over younger ones, especially in defense).

    Maybe that goes with Mourinho's short term thinking, he doesn't see himself staying at a club long enough to see those youngsters blossom into better players that he should risk his chances of winning trophies by playing them now. Whether that's a good thing or bad is up to what the club and fans expect from him, if they prefer winning then they shouldn't complain if this tactic is bringing them success, which I feel it is.
  35. Mar 12, 2018
    #35

    roonster09 Full Member

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    Looks like his whole left these 3 examples will be used to make some nonexistent points. Also Rashford played in every single game till Spurs game when injury to already subbed player means he couldn't play Rashford and then rashford was out injured.

    Even when Rashford was out of form, he played him off the bench and the other player who kept him out was also another youngster Martial.

    Rashford also started both FA cup games and missed 1 due to injury.
  36. Mar 12, 2018
    #36

    Dan_F Full Member

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    None of Lukaku, De Bruyne and Salah were products of Chelsea’s youth teams and were all signed for decent fees. None of them warranted starting spots for a team that won the league. Lukaku was never going to displace Costa, same with Hazard/De Bruyne.

    I would imagine right now if Lingard was signed for 15 million and had no connection to United or the fans he’d be looking to leave in the summer. As it is he’s been at the club his whole life, is English (doesn’t have any issues living here) and willing to wait an extra year or two to see how things end up.

    Clearly that isn’t going to happen with players signed at the age of 20 from foreign clubs. I’m not sure what Mourinho was expected to do with those three players if none of them were happy filling squad roles.
  37. Mar 12, 2018
    #37

    KirkDuyt Full Member

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    So at what age will Lingard no longer be a youngster? 42? How about Pogba, why not put Lukaku in there as well then, he's the same age.

    The only notable youngsters in there are Rashford, McT and Martial.

    That being said, Mourinho is doing fine and even then, at a world class club you don't play people because they're young. You play them because they're good.
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
  38. Mar 12, 2018
    #38

    Robbie Boy Full Member

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    The myth that CBJ looked good when he played is mental. He really didn't bar a-few decent crosses.
  39. Mar 12, 2018
    #39

    Djemba-Djemba Full Member

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    I remember thinking he was pretty good, was he not?

    The only youth player I've seen us play in the last 4 or 5 years that I knew straight away was never going to be good enough was Blackett. He was awful.

    Maybe Donald Love too.
  40. Mar 12, 2018
    #40

    Rifer Full Member

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    Thanks. I didn't follow their progress after leaving. Gutted to know about those injuries, just as they're about to "start" their career.