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The "monster" that kills little kids?

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Gandalf Greyhame, Mar 11, 2018.

  1. Mar 12, 2018
    #81

    acrebo Full Member

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    Number of appearances isn't really the right metric to gauge development, particularly when that number is really quite high.

    Rashford played a lot up to the end of the year, probably a bit too much really. Yes, he's had less opportunities in recent weeks but perhaps his form was such that he needed a bit of a rest. He comes back into the starting lineup and look what happens - that's an endorsement of his time out, not a reason to criticise.

    I'd suggest he'll develop a lot more by learning from players like Sanchez than he will have done by being played every week, irrespective of form.

    I do agree, however, that we need to continue to develop him. That'll be happening away from competitive games as well.
  2. Mar 12, 2018
    #82

    The holy trinity 68 The disparager

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    Do people really expect Mou to play youngsters who are not ready or good enough or both just for the sake of playing youth?

    The same people would be criticising Mou if he played lots of youth and had United in 8th place, because that is what would happen if he played lots of youth.

    If a player is good enough then Mou will play them. See Varane, Ballotelli and Santon for example. Now McTominay and Rashford.

    These so called “pundits” can only dream to be as successful as Mou has been in his career. They probably couldn’t even be as successful on Football Manager.
  3. Mar 12, 2018
    #83

    jojojo Moderator Staff

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    In 2004/06 we weren't winning things and SAF had sufficient capital stored up that it didn't matter. United also had sufficient experience and talent available that it could afford to let Fletcher and indeed Ronaldo and Rooney grow up without risking our CL place.

    As for those sales in 94/95. It was a one-off. One of those perfect moments when suddenly possibilities opened up because we had exceptional young players ready simultaneously. We've seen Mourinho clear out squad players like Depay, Schneiderlin, Shweinsteiger and indeed Rooney to leave space for players.

    Which managers? De Bruyne needed another couple of years in Wolfsburg before he was ready to start at City and a couple of years at City before he was a starter for a (soon to be) title winner. Salah spent three years in Italy (not winning trophies) before joining Liverpool. When you look at modern managers who mostly don't get past three year contracts, players get starts for title contenders when they're ready to get starts for title contenders.
  4. Mar 12, 2018
    #84

    Gandalf Greyhame Full Member

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    It is his quote after all. I don't what the fuss is about. Anyway, I've changed it. Hope it's okay now.
  5. Mar 12, 2018
    #85

    Robbie Boy Full Member

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    We would have one less title, for sure. I get the point you're trying to make but that's a terrible example.
  6. Mar 12, 2018
    #86

    kundalini Full Member

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    We finished the title winning season with the exact same number of points that we had achieved the previous season with Welbeck as our starting striker. We scored 3 fewer goals yet finished first. What changed is that City finished with 11 fewer points.

    That squad had tons of players that could get goals for us. Hernandez's goals per 90 mins ratio was far superior to RVP's.
  7. Mar 12, 2018
    #87

    AR87 Full Member

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    We took the foot off the gas because we had the title wrapped up so soon. If any team had been close to us to put on the pressure our points total in 2012/13 would have been higher.
  8. Mar 12, 2018
    #88

    el3mel Full Member

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    We would have never won the league title in SAF last season without RVP. This season was all about RVP, Chicharito and SAF being genius in covering the cracks. There were some other outstanding players as Carrick and Rafael but RVP and Chicharito were saving us a lot up front.
  9. Mar 12, 2018
    #89

    Robbie Boy Full Member

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    He scored 9 league goals the previous season and managed 2 the season RvP came in....
  10. Mar 12, 2018
    #90

    Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber Thus says Kemo

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    That too. I still wish he'd master playing down the right
  11. Mar 12, 2018
    #91

    Rifer Full Member

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    Yup, it's Jose's quote nicknaming himself sarcastically. I'm fine with the prev title, no biggie but I can see why many would feel triggered by it as it can easily sounds inappropriate, misleading and some people didn't know Jose said it referring to himself.

    Alternatively: Mourinho the "monster that kills little kids" or Mourinho = the monster that kills little kids. Both sounds safer, but nevermind, what's done is done.

    Back to the topic...
  12. Mar 12, 2018
    #92

    Rifer Full Member

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    The management of the academy and young players done with Mourinho in charge so far, have been arguably very good.

    It's not just the players that are involved with the first team, but as does the young players who are not.

    Ever since last season, all of the young players are pretty much not wasting their time.
    -Last season can be debated to still have disorganization in managing the youngsters, understandably since there are new guys in charge with both Mourinho and Nicky Butt and their staffs, but this season is much much more efficient.
    --This season instead, we see...
    • few young players remain who can be more involved and contribute: Rashford, McTominay, Shaw, Martial.
    • the rest of the academy players will at times training and travelled with the first team squad, even given some chances of game times: Gomes, O'hara, Hamilton, etc.
    • players who are not but highly rated and can be considered to have broken through to the first team are all send out on loan: Tuanzebe, Mitchell, TFM, Pereira.
    • if the young players request more game times and loans, they are given: A. Pereira (Mourinho wants him to stay).
    • Mitchell and Tuanzebe stay 1st half of the season in consideration to our LB and CB situations where it's possible they may gain more game times.
    • players who may not be rated and have lower chance of breaking through are all send out on loan if there are interest: Wilson, CBJ, Willock, Johnstone, etc.
    • each young players I'm sure are being help to find clubs that may be interested in loaning them, preferably good environment eg. TFM with CP in EPL, Tuanzebe with Villa training with 2 best CBs of the game.
    • if they fail in their loans, they'll be recall and help next: CBJ back to play with the reserves.
    • if they request transfer, will be granted: Harrop, Januzaj, etc.
    It's different than during the reign of LVG, where there are quite a big number of youngsters on waiting list so to speak involved with the first team squad, but barely playing or given some chance then when they performed horribly are out next game, not permitted to be sent out on loan, etc. Some of the referred young players: McNair, Varela, A. Pereira, etc.

    Credits to the manager, and the current youth/academy coaches and staffs too.
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
  13. Mar 13, 2018
    #93

    hasanejaz88 Full Member

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    It's looking at it in hindsight that Welbeck turned out to be an average player but I'm speaking from the point of view of 2012 when Welbeck came off a 9 goal, 4 assist season as a 20-21 year old and played a massive role in United almost winning the title. He not only showed he can be a consistent goalscorer (15+ a season) in the future but his link up play with Rooney and Nani was particularly impressive, so yes back in 2012 I would've wanted us to continue to develop Welbeck rather than buying RVP; but ofcourse in hindsight that turned out to be a good decision.
  14. Mar 13, 2018
    #94

    Robbie Boy Full Member

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    Well Welbeck played a hell of a lot the season RvP came in and managed 2 goals. If Fergie had of trusted him enough, he wouldn't have felt the need to buy RvP. For me, Welbeck was never anywhere near good enough and Fergie definitely got the absolute best out of him.
  15. Mar 13, 2018
    #95

    hasanejaz88 Full Member

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    Welbeck played almost half the minutes he played the previous seasons (1293 vs 2014) so I wouldn't agree that he was trusted enough. Ofcourse in hindsight Sir Alex was right to make that decision though since Welbeck didn't end up as good as I thought he could be at that time.
  16. Mar 13, 2018
    #96

    R'hllor Full Member

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    :lol: Dunno where even to begin with this one ( 1st 2 lines and half of 3rd )
  17. Mar 13, 2018
    #97

    Cliche Guevara Full Member

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    We’re seeing so much of this kind of thing these days.

    People mouth off talking complete shite, in this case about Mourinho. It doesn’t stand up to the slightest scrutiny and is widely exposed as nonsense. The person carries on, regardless, peddling the same cliched rubbish and hides behind the popular narrative.

    More people need to be called out and I’m actually glad Jose, himself, does it periodically.
  18. Mar 13, 2018
    #98

    Maradona10 Duncan Castles

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  19. Mar 13, 2018
    #99

    Rifer Full Member

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    Martial's appearances too is that high.
  20. Mar 13, 2018

    Return of the Manc Banned

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    Rashford has played like 3 times as a striker.:rolleyes:

    Rashford will fail longterm if he is regarded as a permanent LW & so will martial.

    The fact that Jose bought Sanchez and moved martial towards the right - shows that Jose is more about giving game time to rashford than particularly improving him by handing him out a proper position for him.

    Rashford was great against Liverpool; finally scoring goals from his style of shooting that has only appeared this season and was largely unsuccessful thus far.
    Yet there are fans talking about his shooting style having greatly improved- just after one game. How Jose has improved him by what exactly? Playing him at LW now?

    Rashford will only reach his heights eventually as a CF. A simply comparison to someone like Stirling from the same country shows why he will struggle to play to even similar standards on the wider areas by comparing style of play.

    Jose has not improved Rashford after one performance- he has

    • initially dropped him for zlatan from ST
    • Replaced Zlatan with Lukaky at ST
    • Moved Rashford to the right wing where he wasnt the best
    • Moved him to the left to compete with martial; again netiher are the best
    • Replaced the Left wingers with Sanchez who has only moved centrally due to his lack of form.

    Ideally- the likes of martial, Rashford & lukaku should be playing in partnerships.

    The only person who he has progressed is mctomminay & fair play to him for that; the other being Lingard by simply moving fro mthe right wing to central position which was always going to happen sooner than later.

    He is not killing youngsters - but neither is he god's gift to them either - the dropping of tuenzebe for lindelof is similair to what he did with rashford & lukaku/ibrahimovic.


    The reason alot of pundits have been talking about Rashford & Mourinho in particular is simple - They viewed him like many here as a player with the ability to be the leading striker of Manchester United. Because Jose cba to improve him as a striker, wait for him to reach the accepted level - even though rashford was fairly clinical in his breakout season; he has replaced him almost immediately.

    Partnerships are the only thing that will save him in the long term. One game against liverpool does not change anything.
  21. Mar 13, 2018

    Return of the Manc Banned

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    :lol: This is one of the funniest posts I'v seen talking about picking at sticks. Basically absolutely nothing has changed except for Mctominay. Dear of dear - the Jose supporters will pick anything little up for support whilst the more questioning will also do the same/
  22. Mar 13, 2018

    Rifer Full Member

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    Eh why? :p You didn't read the many reports of what the coaches said about the many decisions made (loans, sales, etc) of the young players?

    Similarly (not really), anti-jose like you (probably, don't know whether you're a fan of him or not, but sounds like you hates him) will find anything to slates him with, without checking nor thinking/considering for the facts, reports and reasons behind everything Jose and the coaches did.
  23. Mar 13, 2018

    Rifer Full Member

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    There are these things called context, experiences, influences, training, pressure, team balance, system, tactics, instructions, advices, etc.
    Try and have a more wider point of view and more wholistic perspectives.

    So..
    Rashford, and Martial and the rest (except McTominay and Lingard) improves not because of Jose? He have zero influences why they improved?
    Lingard only improves after playing as CAM?
    Rashford can only improves playing upfront as a striker?

    Sounds like someone who believes only in "right" single positioning and "right" single formation that could improves players.
    --In addition to more game times (preferably the whole season 35+ matches) in those "right" formation and single position.
    ---Only then the young players will improve.
    *I wonder why this sounds so videogames-centric way of looking at football.
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  24. Mar 13, 2018

    rm4eva New Member

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    At Real Madrid (3 years):
    1. Youngsters he bought into the first team: Varane
    2. Youngsters already in the first team that developed well under him: None
    At Chelsea (3 years):
    1. Youngsters he bought into the first team: None
    2. Youngsters already in the first team that developed well under him: None
    At Man Utd (2 years):
    1. Youngsters he bought into the first team: McTominay
    2. Youngsters already in the first team that developed well under him: Rashford, Lingaard
    So basically nothing special in the last 8 years.
    2 young players successfully bought into the first team and 2 young players developed well.
  25. Mar 13, 2018

    Rifer Full Member

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    @rm4eva
    How about Alvaro Morata at Real? Curious, since you supported the club.

    Kurt Zouma is fairly young at Chelsea, promoted and starting during Mourinho's final season there, suffered big injury.

    But yes, nothing very special enough yet overall.

    Edit: I mean Kurt Zouma promoted from squad player to starter.
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
  26. Mar 13, 2018

    AR87 Full Member

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    I could care less about what he did at Chelsea and Madrid. At United he has handed McTominay a debut and consistent path into the first team while continuing to give steady minutes to Rashford, Lingard and Martial despite erratic form at times over their 2 seasons under Mourinho. He also wanted Pereira to stick with the team this season because he wanted to give him opportunities, but Pereira wanted to ensure consistent game time and went out on loan again.

    I fully expect Fosu-Mensah and Tuanzebe to be integrated into the first team more consistently next season.
  27. Mar 13, 2018

    kidbob Full Member Knee-jerker

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    At Real Madrid the pressure for instant results over youth: Immense (you guys sacked a Champions League wining manager).
    At Chelsea the pressure for instant results over youth: Immense (they sacked Jose when he was their most successful manager)

    The fact is that Chelsea and Madrid are buying clubs with little recent history of bringing through youth. I understand it pains you that your club will never have a 'Class of 92' because you are a Government run buying machine but please refrain from criticising a club that respects their youth teams.
  28. Mar 13, 2018

    prath92 Full Member

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    They bought zouma. He isn’t from the academy
  29. Mar 13, 2018

    The holy trinity 68 The disparager

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    What is so funny?
  30. Mar 13, 2018

    The holy trinity 68 The disparager

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    Inter Milan: Ballotelli and Santon off the top of my head.

    What about his time at Porto? Does anyone know who he promoted from their youth team?
  31. Mar 13, 2018

    prath92 Full Member

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    Chelsea he brought in Loftus cheek into the mix. Conte has brought in Christensen. Besides that none of the academy players even get in the squad if I’m not wrong.

    How many did Ancelotti bring in? Unless you count carvajal?
  32. Mar 13, 2018

    rm4eva New Member

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    I don't disagree. I'm just saying that Mourinho does not have a special record in bringing in youth.
    What about his major-trophy haul during that period?
    2 Leagues, 1 Domestic Cup, 1 Europa in 8 years.
    It's good but then you can't use the excuse that he has bought these clubs wild success by using experienced players.
  33. Mar 13, 2018

    Akshay Moderator Staff

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    Two league cups as well in England, and his CL triumph with Inter was a little less than 8 years ago.

    I don't think anyone is saying Jose has a special record with youth, just that he doesn't have a bad one at United either despite his reputation and the media critics.
  34. Mar 13, 2018

    rm4eva New Member

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    I'm just saying that Mourinho does not have a special record in bringing in youth.
    What about his major-trophy haul during that period?
    2 Leagues, 1 Domestic Cup, 1 Europa in 8 years.
    Its good but then you can't use the excuse that he has bought these clubs wild success by using experienced players.

    Also look at Lord Zidane at Real Madrid (3 years):
    1. Youngsters he bought into the first team: Achraf
    2. Youngsters already in the first team (whether at Real or elsewhere) that developed well under him: Nacho, Vazquez, Asensio, Kovacic, Casemiro
    Thats already 6 players and he has won 3 major trophies in 3 years (Mourinho 4 in 8 years).

    Every major club has benefited from some sort of intervention, whether private (John Henry Davis, James Gibson), public (Man Utd in 1991) or government (Barca/Qatar/UAE).
    You are probably one of the newer United "fans" who has a limited knowledge of their own history.
    Read up on your history first before making snide digs at Real Madrid.
  35. Mar 13, 2018

    Champagne Football Full Member

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    I love the fact that Jose is seriously out to prove at Utd that he can bring kids through. This will only benefit the club. McTominay will be on the bench a lot more though next season when we sign another midfielder but at least has shown that he'll be a brilliant squad player and could make the role his own one day when Matic is ready to pack it in.
  36. Mar 13, 2018

    kidbob Full Member Knee-jerker

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    Ok so if we are using some of your Real examples for Zidane we can then revise the list you gave Jose to include Martial, Shaw and Bailly. Maybe even Morata too. We can also give him credit for Zouma at Chelsea. Now I wouldn't do that personally because they weren't 'our' youngsters but because Madrid is so short of their own (Nacho and Vasquez aside) I suppose under these new rules they should be included. In fact if we use Achraf we may as well include Tuanzebe and Gomes for Jose too.

    Also trophy haul? I assume you mean 2 league titles against the best team of all time (surely you are aware of them as they are your biggest rivals). 1 domestic cup and europa league after taking over a mess of a club (as all our fans will attest to). Losing someone like SAF is a big deal to United, not that tigger happy Madrid will ever know the feeling of having a long term coach.

    I'm not even a Jose fan, as seen by my 'Knee-Jerker' tag, but sorry mate you are talking complete smack.
  37. Mar 13, 2018

    breakout67 Full Member

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    I'd like to thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedule of youth coaching to provide this analysis. I am now Jose out because he is killing the youth.
  38. Mar 13, 2018

    R'hllor Full Member

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    Your drivel of a post.
  39. Mar 13, 2018

    The holy trinity 68 The disparager

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    It isn’t drivel at all. It is stating that people are dumb enough to expect youth to play every game even if they are not good enough.

    At least I contributed to the thread about how people are viewing Mou on utilising youth.

    Instead of people like you wasting time to call posts “drivel” instead of actually contributing yourself.
  40. Mar 13, 2018

    R'hllor Full Member

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    It is a drivel of highest order and inaccurate as hell just to fit your agenda.