The relative strength of the Premier League

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by Wumminator, Mar 5, 2016.

  1. Mar 14, 2019

    damageinc. New Member

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    this.

    Facts:
    1) The last time that 4 english clubs achieved the CL quarters was 10 years ago.
    2) Real Madrid flopped big after winning 4 CLs in the last 5 years and came at the end of their cycle.
    3) Bayern is not as strong as 3/4 years ago and German football have showed to be really mediocre.
    4) The best clubs in this competition are Barcelona and Juventus with City really close but they need to prove it becouse they have done nothing yet in this competition
    5) where is the news that Epl have the biggest revenues between the top leagues? It’s a clear fact since about 15 years or something
  2. Mar 14, 2019

    Classical Mechanic Full Member

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    See I don’t. When the PL was the best United were genuine contenders for the CL every year. A better League helps us to raise our level and a competitive league create a better product.
  3. Mar 14, 2019

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018 Scout

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    Yeah, better league will raise the quality of teams which helps in europe. No wonder Madrid and Barca dominated Europe as both kept pushing each other.
  4. Mar 14, 2019

    Sarni nice guy, unassuming, objective United fan.

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    It is probably the strongest in the world near the top but after years of saying European performances do not matter at all Wumminator should never be allowed to use CL results as evidence of anything.
  5. Mar 14, 2019

    Treble Full Member

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    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/can-england-win-the-champions-league/

    538 has City (28%) and Liverpool (22%) as favourites ahead of Barca (20%), Juve (11%), Ajax (7%), Spurs (5%), United (4%), Porto (3%).

    They take into account our results from the last 12 or even 18 months, hence the relatively low chances to win. It's better to not be among the favourites, imo, the pressure is less.
  6. Mar 14, 2019

    GazTheLegend Full Member

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    Yes, that wealth really hurt the multilple CL winning Barcelona and Real Madrid!

    And as we see now it’s hurt the PL hugely, it’s not like all that money has seen a massive increase in quality in the English coaching and youth setups, leading to outstanding results at pretty much every youth age group...

    And how Man City’s billions havent one of the most envied youth set ups in Europe...

    What you wrote is hubristic nonsense based on emotional bias. If you said a leagues -integrity- fails over time you
    might have an argument.
  7. Mar 14, 2019

    Wumminator The Special One!

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    I’m not at all. But those who do now obviously can see what I’ve been talking about for years.

    Let me get this straight, I said when I started this thread that the Premier League has the strongest league and I was mocked. Laughed at. Called a WUM. I was told that Bayern, Barce, Real, Dortmund and even Atlético would walk this league easily.

    Less than three full seasons later now it’s an accepted fact. This thread was used as an example to laugh at me. Well it won’t be any longer, people are bumping it now and making the same points I was.

    I won’t gloat, I just hope the people who called me a WUM now reassess what they were saying
  8. Mar 14, 2019

    Bojan11 Full Member

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    It’s too early to talk about cycles and stuff. English clubs needs to do it regularly like they were between 2004 and 2009.

    It helps that Wenger and Arsenal are not around in Europe to lose constantly.
  9. Mar 14, 2019

    Treble Full Member

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    You were wrong though. The big clubs in England were in a bad shape back then, including City who had an aging squad. A league won by Leicester is nowhere near being the strongest in the world. Now, things have changed. Leicester 15/16 would struggle to finish top 4 in 18/19.
  10. Mar 14, 2019

    Sarni nice guy, unassuming, objective United fan.

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    You were laughed at because you were completely wrong at the time as proven by English teams failures in Europe whenever they came across those teams, which you tried to explain by PL teams being exhausted from having to play Crystal Palace and Newcastle on a weekly basis.

    The fact that PL top teams have improved enough to deliver respectable CL results three years later does not make you right three years ago.
  11. Mar 14, 2019

    Mb194dc Full Member

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    The top 6 in the premier League have improved hugely since the Leicester title win and are now as good or better than the top teams in other European leagues. 4 or 5 years ago they were clearly interior.

    The other 14 teams are pretty woeful though both in quality and in the style of football played. Just consider Burnley finished 7th last year without even scoring a goal a game on average.
  12. Mar 14, 2019

    Wumminator The Special One!

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    Just quoting for posterity.
  13. Mar 14, 2019

    hasanejaz88 Full Member

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    It's been more than two years since that quote. So erm, still wrong.
  14. Mar 14, 2019

    deafepl New Member

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    I don't think UCL winner by nationality is a place to tell whether the league is best but more team from domestically and consistency is important to analyze which league is best. I feel like EPL has a lot of better team, spreading evenly quality over the league. There's the reason why EPL is the only league that got 4 teams in quarter-final three times, not even La Liga, Serie A or Bundesliga has managed that and were first to have 5 teams involved in the round of 16 last season and could have another 5 again in round of 16 next season if Chelsea qualify for UCL via Europa league. EPL had 3 teams back to back in the semi-final so 9 semi-finalist come from PL in just 3 years, they are looking likely to get 3 teams involved in the semi-final again, that's more record than any other top 5 league combined who had 3 teams in the semi-final. EPL had a more different winner than anyone and had 7 different teams involved in a round of 16 over the last 2 seasons since 2016.


    So, EPL hasn't had the best team that can challenge Barca/Madrid especially having Ronaldo and Messi, they have advantages over any Serie A, EPL, Bundesliga. Messi and Ronaldo are coming to the end of the era in the 2020s, dominance is up for grab, PL is more likely to take it back, Serie A looks strong too but needs consistency.


    La Liga was best for 5 years after Bayern's UCL winner because of the many teams La Liga represented went on to win European trophies and dominate Europe consistently.
    So if Bayern dominates UCL for 5 years and winning 5 UCL titles in a row, would any of you consider Bundesliga to be the best league because of Bayern? I'd consider them to be the best league if they had Dortmund, Schalke, Bayer, etc to win European trophies and reach semi-final and finalist every season for 5 years or even 3 years. One team dominating Europeans trophies doesn't mean their league is best because they don't have other teams can dominate Europe. Porto can dominate the Europeans for years but still won't consider their league to be best, they need Benfica, Sporting, etc to win trophies, reach semi-final/finalist consistently to back up a statement regarding of whether their league is best in Europe or not.



    So, if EPL wins UCL this year, I still wouldn't consider EPL to be the best league because of one team or just one season but EPL needs to have more teams of dominating Europe consistently to be considered as the best league in Europe.
  15. Mar 14, 2019

    SilentWitness ShoelessWitness Staff

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    Hence why I said arguable. Success is relative. Klopp took a Dortmund side that wasn’t really anywhere near challenging for the league to back to back titles. He’s not quite there with Liverpool yet in terms of a trophy but they were also a team that was absolutely nowhere near a league title but he’s got them to both that and a CL final.

    Same with Poch at Spurs, they’ve regularly been a side that has been consistently off the pace of the top 4 but he’s turned them into a club that is a top 4 regular and if they didn’t have an absolute brain fart in recent weeks would be right up there as challengers (who’d have thought that no investment would come and bite them in the arse the deeper into the season we go).

    It’s obviously difficult to judge managers and players as everyone has different variables which they judge them on. Some think you can only have success with trophies, I think you can be successful in elevating teams to a different level, something which both managers have done. Trophies will be the cherry on top.

    If Klopp or Poch went to a Barca or Madrid side they’d easily win a trophy.
  16. Mar 14, 2019

    Revan Assumptionman

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    Jesus. If someone said in 2005 than Cristiano Ronaldo is the best player in the world, he would have laughed at. In 2008, it was an accepted fact.

    If someone in 2014 said that Donaldo Trump is the president of US, people would have called him an idiot. In 2017, he was the president of US.

    Let's not change facts and pretend that you predicted EPL to become the top league in Europe (to be fair, many people would have predicted it, with the money it has, it was a matter of time), you were saying back then that it was (at that time) the best league in the world, which was laughably wrong. Now being the best in the world is irrelevant in that aspect, when the thread was made, it was wrong, and so people laughed with you.
  17. Mar 14, 2019

    Sarni nice guy, unassuming, objective United fan.

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    Exactly. He wasn’t saying it would be the best in 2-3 years, he was saying it was already the best due to quality of mid-table teams. It was kind of a given that top teams would catch up within 2-3 years.

    Truth is the quality of bottom and mid-tier teams has regressed if anything, there are few good teams below top 6 this year but the standard of top 6 has significantly increased through development and investment hence better European performances.

    Funny thing is he ignored the quality of La Liga because it was dominated by two teams. Now that PL is similar with two teams running away it does not seem to be a problem.
  18. Mar 14, 2019

    Wumminator The Special One!

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    Again, just quoting to see some shifting of the goalposts IMO.
  19. Mar 14, 2019

    Wumminator The Special One!

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    This is a real interesting opinion from three years ago when I literally say that this thread will be interesting in three years but apparently I was wrong.
  20. Mar 14, 2019

    Revan Assumptionman

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    You were saying that EPL was the best league at that time. It being the best league now is irrelevant, it doesn't change the past.

    This is from your OP:


    You were totally wrong back then. EPL improving compared to other leagues and being the top league now, doesn't change the fact that it wasn't the top league back then. It is like me saying that Mbappe is a better player than Ronaldo now, be laughed it, Ronaldo will inevitably regress in the next 3-5 years while Mbappe will improve, and then proclaiming how a big genius I am seeing what others couldn't see.
  21. Mar 14, 2019

    Siorac Full Member

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    That's not much of an argument to be fair. You couldn't see Leicester winning the Premier League either, until it actually happened. Such a thing was regarded as "impossible" for "obvious reasons".
  22. Mar 14, 2019

    Revan Assumptionman

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    Oh, and captain Hindsight, I also predicted that EPL will become the top league in the world eventually. Here is in reply to amolbhatia50k post in the same thread (from 2016):

    The second part has yet to happen actually. EPL clubs went 2-0 this season against those clubs I mentioned, but last year EPL clubs lost every tie against top clubs, despite the progress.
  23. Mar 14, 2019

    Treble Full Member

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    Disagree. Barca and Real were too strong in that period to allow for some counterpart of Leicester in La Liga to win it there. And precisely that's the point: the top English teams in that period weren't particularly strong, which made it possible for Leicester to win it. Arsenal, Spurs, City, United, Liverpool and Chelsea finished respectively on 71, 70, 66, 66, 60 and 50 pts. The best of the current top 6 clubs won just 71 pts!
  24. Mar 14, 2019

    Siorac Full Member

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    But that was one freak season in that regard. Before that, Chelsea had won the league with 87 points; the season after, Chelsea won it with 93 points.

    My point here is that the simultaneous collapse of all the top teams in 2016 was still very unexpected even if we did see that the top teams were poorer overall than before. Nobody expected that NONE of these teams would get less than 80 points because they weren't that bad (as evidenced by Chelsea bouncing back immediately). But for example, Leicester's 80 points would have been enough for second place in last season's La Liga, ahead of Atlético Madrid and Real Madrid!
  25. Mar 14, 2019

    Sarni nice guy, unassuming, objective United fan.

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    2015-16 was a weird season in which ALL top teams struggled for different reasons. Something like this almost never happens which is why it's still impossible to believe that Leicester won the title.
  26. Mar 14, 2019

    Treble Full Member

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    It was a freak season but the signs were there that the top teams in England were not particularly good. Are you arguing the opposite - that they were great but just unlucky in Europe? It wasn't a coincidence that the Spanish teams were winning everything and the English ones struggled to reach the quarter finals of the CL. Chelsea might have won the PL with 87 pts but got embarassed at home from 10 man PSG - and it's not like they were unlucky in that game. If anything, the fact that that Chelsea team managed to win 87 pts indicates that the league wasn't great at the time.
  27. Mar 14, 2019

    Siorac Full Member

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    I'm arguing that Leicester winning the league was an absolute freak occurrence and while the league and specifically its top teams were weaker than before (or after), on the whole they weren't anywhere near as bad as that season suggests.

    They were behind the other European top teams for sure.
  28. Mar 14, 2019

    Saffron New Member

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    You think Barca needs to be "on their day" to beat a top English team? I'd say they'd be favourites against any English team except maybe City, which would be 50/50. And if they actually played in the PL they'd be even more ahead of the rest of the top 6 because of their squad depth.

    Maybe we just have different definitions of what "on their day" means, but personally I would use that for something like: "on their day Roma can beat Juventus".
  29. Mar 14, 2019

    Viral United Full Member

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    It will go down as in which league next best players will play.
  30. Mar 14, 2019

    Untd55 New Member

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    I don't think so. You have to remember that the Premier League has more teams that are capable of taking points off Barcelona than in La Liga. All of the top six are good enough to beat the majority of teams that compete in the Champions League. I would not say that is the case for La Liga at the moment.

    You only have to look at the current European competitions: Four teams in the Champions League Quarterfinals and Chelsea are favourites for the Europa League. Arsenal should also overturn their bad result. I don't think it is even certain that Barcelona would be at the top of the Premier League - they would be up there, but Liverpool and City currently have some high points totals.

    Also if you took a long term view, you could also argue that those top six would react to what Barcelona are doing as they would play them every year - after all they have the money to compete unlike in La Liga where it is only Real Madrid.
  31. Mar 14, 2019

    Paul_Scholes18 Full Member

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    I think the discussion before was that the top teams was not that strong and that the title would be open to get. I had some crazy hope Van Gaal would be able to do it (win the league) even though we had played terrible under his first season and I had little faith in him. We started alright in terms of getting results, but it just got worse and worse up to the point in which we got Rashford in. City had a really dire year and Arsenal just could not win anything and the same with Spurs really.
  32. Mar 14, 2019

    KingMinger22 City >>> United. Moaning twat

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    I don't get why some people here are dismissing the current strength of the PL based on the past of five years or so.

    I think most people are in agreement that Spain were stronger at the top end of the league's.

    Now though, I think we are seeing a turning point and I expect the PL to be the dominant league for the foreseeable future.

    The league has much more strength in depth compared to other leagues also.

    You two absolute top sides in City and Liverpool. Imagine if United as well can kick on. Though I think we are a far ways off that yet.
  33. Mar 14, 2019

    marktan Full Member

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    In the PL over the length of a season I'd expect Barca to be top or challenging yes.

    By 'on their day' I meant more if they turn up, because they're good enough to beat any of the English teams, but they've struggled in Europe over the last 3 seasons. I think they'd comfortably beat us but I can see any of Spurs, Pool or City nullifying their attack and scoring against them. All 3 play different styles and are quite tough to play against if you're not used to it.
  34. Mar 14, 2019

    Tommy bigot with fetish for footballers getting fingered

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    Didn't Barcelona score 4 against Spurs at Wembley?
  35. Mar 14, 2019

    marktan Full Member

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    With a lot of Spurs' first team missing and then they drew a few months later at the Nou Camp. Obviously Barca will be the favourites but Spurs are capable of putting in performances like the one against Dortmund.
  36. Mar 14, 2019

    Tommy bigot with fetish for footballers getting fingered

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    If I remember right, Barca were already top of the group with nothing to play for in the second game, while Spurs really wanted the point(s). Kinda like the second Juve game versus United. Juve have already shown they can turn it up when the pressure is on, and I reckon Barcelona could do that too.

    I'm not saying Spurs/Liverpool/United would have no chance versus them, but I'd really not bet against Barca.

    City vs Barcelona is the game we need to see.
  37. Mar 14, 2019

    Sarni nice guy, unassuming, objective United fan.

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    We aren't really doing that.

    People are saying PL was not the best 3-5 years ago when Wum was saying it was, and the fact that it's the best now does not prove that it was valid 3 years back or more.
  38. Mar 14, 2019

    Classical Mechanic Full Member

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    Messi destroyed them that night. If he turns up in his best form then you need to put 4 or 5 past them at the other to get a result. It's not Barca, it's Messi.
  39. Mar 14, 2019

    Fluctuation0161 Full Member

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    Have you considered a name change? :)
  40. Mar 14, 2019

    Cait Sith Full Member

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    Not seeing it. Bundesliga is abysmal now and 3 English sides drew 3 Bundesliga teams, the other went through with Di Matteo's Chelsea-esque luck.