The Road Trip Draft R1: Enigma/TRV vs Arbitrium

Discussion in 'Draft Games Forum' started by Moby, Nov 2, 2018.

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Who will win this match based on all the players at their peaks?

Poll closed Nov 3, 2018.
  1. Enigma/TRV

    57.7%
  2. Arbitrium

    42.3%
  1. Nov 2, 2018
    #1

    Moby Dick who hates the homeless

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    Enigma/TRV --------------------------------------VS-------------------------------Arbitrium
    Enigma/TRV Tactics
    Formation:- 5-2-3 to 3-4-3 fluid, interchanging.
    Defensive line:- Normal.
    Style:- Direct, fast tempo. Open up the flanks and stretch the play. Messi to pull the opposition CBs and create space for Robben and Ronaldinho to cut inside and attack. Vieira and Sammer to make late runs and link-up with the attacking players.

    GK:- Gordon Banks - Considered by many to be amongst the Top-3 goalkeepers of all time, Gordon Banks will forever be remembered for his save from Pelé's header during the 1970 World Cup and rightly so. Yet those who saw Banks play knew he was capable of repeating such saves week after week. He wasn't just great - he was consistently on top of his game and a Banks' mistake was very rare indeed.

    LWB:- Giacinto Facchetti -
    One of the greatest, most pioneering and era-defining players of his time. This was a man – who above all else played the game with impeccable spirit and morality – who was decades ahead of his time at full-back; a man who scored 75 goals in over 600 games for a largely defensive Inter Milan. The greatest left wing-back of all time.

    LCB:- Ciro Ferrara -
    An immovable object and an unstoppable force. The lynchpin of the all-conquering Juventus side in the late 90s and early 21st century, Ciro Ferrara was one of the greatest defenders of all-time. But what made him so unique? It is worryingly uncommon, even in the modern game, that we see a defender with considerable technical ability, so much so, that when such a player even shows signs of emerging, they’re a highly sought after commodity. Ciro Ferrara had this ability in abundance; often seen marauding forward out of defence with players in tow, or Reading and intercepting passes as they were made; he was always several steps ahead of his opponents. Throughout his 20-year playing career, Ferrara made an impressive 500 appearances shared between Napoli and Juventus. A commanding presence at the back and a remarkable ability to turn defence into attack; Ferrara was irreplaceable on the team sheet. Certain performances standout from Ferrara; a game between two Italian giants in Juventus and Inter in the 97/98 season saw Ferrara come up against an on fire Ronaldo. The rest is history.
    Ferrara occupied an unenviable position, marking often regarded the greatest Brazilian striker of all-time behind Pele. Regardless, he managed to get forward, play key passes and outmuscle Ronaldo on several occasions, keeping the attacker relatively quiet. This game wasn’t unique, a great performance yes, but its just another example of Ferrara’s style; confident and formidable, Ferrara didn’t shy away from big games and didn’t back out of tackles. He had a versatility that made him adaptable for any position across the back line. Combined with a manner with the ball that made him look like he belonged on any part of the field.

    Libero:- Matthias Sammer - Not many defenders have won the Ballon D'or on the back of great defensive displays both for club and country. A colossal figure and modern day Beckenbauer he wasn't that far off from his predecessor in terms of quality. At his absolute peak, Sammer was as great and as influential a defender as any in the history of the game.

    RCB:- Carles Puyol - A true gentleman of the game and raised with the spirit of La Masia, Puyol was one of the best defenders of modern era. Excellent on the ball, tough in the tackle, great in the air and a true leader on the pitch, Puyol won it all on club and international level. And its not easy to thrive in a system where you don't have much cover from the full-backs and midfielders either, especially at club level, where he had to often cover for the marauding Dani Alves at the back and did it with precision. Puyol was a cornerstone for both Barcelona and Spain when they dominated world football both at club level and International football.

    RWB:- Carlos Alberto -
    A player of great technique, elegancy, and strong character, "O Capitano Do Tri" is considered by many as the greatest right back to have graced the game of football. The captain of the greatest International side of all time, the Brazilian Team of 1970 FIFA World Cup. In the final match against Italy, he scored the fourth goal. It was the last and most memorable goal of that brilliant tournament. A thunderous finish to an outstanding collective play that symbolized the dominance of Brazil during that tournament, and that is to this date one of the most replayed goals in television, an all-time World Cup highlight.

    CDM:- Fernando Redondo - The pure essence of elegance. A master at controlling the tempo of the game, the term "Rolls Royce Midfielder" is apt for Redondo. When you hear this name, the first thing that comes to mind is that outrageous and mesmerizing piece of skill at Old Trafford. But he was much more than that. It's hard to describe Redondo, because even if you think of the highest praise and the most eloquent descriptions, it just won't be enough to get a grasp of the magnitude of his legacy. So, we would just quote what two of the greatest managers of all time had to say about Fernando Redondo.

    B2B:- Patrick Vieira - At his peak, Patrick Vieira was a footballing Death Star, a physical and technical monstrosity who decided games with one scything tackle or searching pass. If Thierry Henry was Arsenal’s superstar, then Vieira was its nuclear soul, an irresistible force of nature that made the midfield his personal, unconquerable universe. A complete midfielder who was silky but at the same time could be rough when he had to. A true midfield general.

    LWF:- Ronaldinho - A two-time FIFA World Player of the Year in 2004 and 2005 and one-time Ballon D'or winner in 2005, Ronaldinho is often considered as one of the most skillful players to have graced the football field. Renowned for his technique, flair, tricks, insane close-control and no-look passes, no one embodied the Joga Bonito spirit like Ronaldinho did. A true joy to watch.

    RWF:- Arjen Robben - The best right winger of modern era after Luis Figo, Arjen Robben is a true wing-wizard. Blessed with breathtaking pace and immaculate close control, Arjen Robben pierces through opposition defenses like a hot knife through butter. You know what he is gonna do, yet you can't do anything about it. He is just that good.

    False 9:- Lionel Messi - The GOAT. Goals, be it solo goals or outside the box or from free-kicks. Assists, be it through-balls to the other attacks or diagonal balls to the overlapping full-backs. Dribbling, be it one on one or one vs five/six. Lionel Messi ticks all the boxes. In terms of absolute peak as well as sheer consistency. The World Cup is all that is missing from Messi's résumé for him to be considered "The Undisputed GOAT".

    Lionel Messi made his name playing on the right as an inside-forward. One could go to youtube and check out the goals he scored when he was younger. Receiving the ball deep on the right, he dribbled in and shot while cutting inside, and the ball almost always found its way into the top corners.

    He was devastating before, but he became a God in the season he was moved centrally. Counting the seasons from Ibrahimovic’s departure to Luis Suarez’s arrival, Messi scored 227 in 211 games; most of them coming from a false 9 position.

    David Villa was signed to replace Ibrahimovic, but he was never really a replacement in the like-for-like sense. In his 3 years at Barcelona, Villa featured on the left-wing in a lot of games. This helped the Argentine a great deal because Villa’s cunning movements dragged many a defenders out and gave Lionel Messi the space he needed.

    However, his best season came when he was the only true scorer in the starting XI. David Villa injured his tibia in the Club World Championship by the end of 2011. With him out injured and only Pedro making sparse runs towards the goal, Leo scored a record 73 goals that season.

    What Messi as a False 9 does is, it unlocks all the tools in Messi's Arsenal. He can play closer to the opposition goal, yet have the complete license to drop deep and build attacks. And when he drags the opposition CBs along with him, that creates all kind of chaos at the back as it hampers the opposition's defensive shape.

    Defence:- Marshaled by Sammer in his peak incarnation and two excellent CB's who also fit him really well stylistically and the GOAT full backs in Facchetti and Carlos Alberto we can claim one of the best defences in the draft, especially when it is protected by Redondo and Vieira.

    Midfield:- Redondo and Vieira have it all in midfield - physicality, skills, passing ability and superior positional sense which can help us take control of the proceedings in midfield. And with Sammer supporting them from the back, we have the quality as well as the quantity needed to dominate the game in midfield.

    Attack:- Messi has the biggest impact in attack on the pitch by far and is the most decisive player, who should win the game for us. Combined with a peak Ronaldinho and Robben our attack has the x-factor and unpredictability needed to dislodge the comfort of the opposition defenders and decide the match. With Messi dropping deep and dragging the opposition CBs with him, it will create ample amount of space for the likes of Ronaldinho and Robben to thrive. Both are outstanding dribblers who are masters in tight spaces and could eviscerate any defender in one-on-one situations. So, they would require extra attention. Otherwise, its game-over. But its a pick your poison situation for the opposition. Because if they double up on Ronaldinho and Robben, that allows the two best wing-backs of all time, Facchetti and Carlos Alberto to maraud and dominate the games from the flanks and be the difference maker. And with late runs from Vieira and Sammer, it adds an extra dimension to our attack.

    vs Arbitrium:-
    Arbitrium has got a very good team. Especially his defense, which is outstanding. A very solid midfield as well. However, the attack is underwhelming and not quite upto the standards that is required. In narrow formations, its often the full-backs who decide the games because its usually crowded down the middle. And both Giacinto Facchetti and Carlos Alberto Torres are considerably better than Roberto Carlos and Dani Alves. In terms of wing-backs, Giacinto Facchetti and Carlos Alberto Torres are the benchmark. Also, we have far better and bigger number of match-winners on the field, who could produce that moment of magic and win the game.


    Arbitrium Tactics

    Player Summaries:

    1- Ladislow Mazurkiewicz
    voted the 6th best South American Goalkeeper of the 20th century and rightly revered as Uruguay's greatest ever.

    6. Franco Baresi (Captain)

    For me, the greatest pure defender of all time. Absolutely no argument that he should be in everyone's top 3 defenders of all time.

    13. Alessandro Nesta

    One of Italy's greatest ever, and arguably the best central defender since Baresi retired

    15. Lilian Thuram

    Another of the generations finest and undoubtedly in the all time discussion also. Player's just don't get past him.

    2. Dani Alves

    One of the best right backs in history in terms of being able to control a game.

    3. Roberto Carlos

    One of the best left backs in history. Period.

    14. Josep Masopust

    The Czech Republics greatest ever player, this ballon d'or winning box to box midfielder was a joy to watch and could keep the ball for fun

    8. Paul Breitner

    A german legend and one of the most well rounded footballers in history, Breitner offers everything you could want from a box to box midfielder

    10. Juan Alberto Schiaffino

    Arguably Uruguays greatest ever player, and considered one of the greatest players of all time by those who played with and against him during his era. Laser Vision, and true grit, he would be a joy to watch in the modern game.

    11. Mario Kempes

    One of Argentina's all time greatest players and World Cup final goalscoring hero, Kempes role in this team is vital and it's one he'll carry out with ease.

    9. Hernan Crespo

    Injuries permitting, his goalscoring exploits would have been even more impressive. A pure finisher blessed with an outstanding leap and sense of positioning, in this team he gets to focus on doing what he does best, putting the ball in the net.

    Thoughts on Team Enigma/TRV and the game:

    Enigma and TRV have built an excellent team, and for me have the greatest player of all time in Messi, so dealing with him is where I need to start. I considered playing Makelele and dedicating him to Messi but there hasn't been a single player in the last decade that can deal with his False 9 version. He's an almost unbeatable Trump card.

    So, it would seem my best attempt at stopping him is to compare my defence as a whole to the ones prime Messi faced. Sure, he played against some great back lines but not once did he come up against as formidable a defence as mine. We can hypothesize all we like, but Baresi, Nesta and Thuram is as unsurpassable as it gets, especially considering they are all at their peak and past his peak Nesta was still able to do this;



    A Thuram Nesta partnership could do very well against Messi, so when you factor in who is sweeping up behind them it's as confident as any manager can be.

    Robben and Ronaldinho have pretty much the same task in that they both never came close to facing as elite a defence as this. Ronaldinho in what was effectively his prime did come up against Nesta a few times, when Nesta was probably still a little past his peak yet still able to play like this;




    And as amazing as a duo it seems, just how effective would prime Ronaldinho on the left and false 9 Messi have been? There's a chance that Ronaldinho's impact would be somewhat limited as he won't make those runs in behind, he comes for the ball and makes things happen. And lets not forget, False 9 Messi was also a by-product of his wingers work-rate and pressing and in Ronaldinho and Robben he just wont get that. It looks like a great front 3 but i'm not convinced of its functionality.

    The battle of the full backs in this game is fecking mouth-watering. I don't think one can claim to have the upper hand on the other, personally. However as a defensive unit, mine is undoubtedly superior when you factor in both teams 3 central defenders.

    Redondo and Vieira is a great midfield two, I just don't think its as likely to be as good a partnership as what mine is. A ballon d'or winner and a ballon d'or runner up against lets face it, two players who almost got to that level. With Schiaffino in front of them, in possession my midfield 3 will be lethal, and from what I understand the Uruguayan would be more than willing to help out when Sammer steps forward. Who on Enigma/ TRV's team can do the same if Baresi steps out with the ball into space (which there will be a lot of at times)

    I remember watching Crespo when he was on fire with Parma and formed an unreal partnership with Enrico Chiesa which we only got to see a handful of times because one of them always had an injury. When they played together however, they were unstoppable and put 4 past both Juventus and Ac Milan in the same season thanks largely to the contribution of these two. Mario Kempes is a severe upgrade on Chiesa, and these two will work brilliantly together. Crespo will also give those defenders a run for their money in the air when crosses come in from my full backs, and both he and Kempes movement is enough to keep that backline occupied.

    Bottom line. I think my defence and my midfield are better, and I think both of our defences are strong enough to compensate for the other's attack. Enigma/TRV have more magic up front, but none of those 3 ever came close to coming up against a defence like that and hopefully that counts for something.
  2. Nov 2, 2018
    #2

    Moby Dick who hates the homeless

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  3. Nov 2, 2018
    #3

    Enigma_87 You know who

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  4. Nov 2, 2018
    #4

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    First of all to address some of the points.

    On the flanks we definitely have advantage.

    Not that Carlos and Dani Alves are bad by any means - obviously great players, but Facchetti and Carlos Alberto are the benchmark for attacking full backs/wing backs role.

    Both are and should be considered higher than the opposition and especially when you consider Robben and Ronaldinho in our ranks compared to Kempes/Crespo and Sciaffino we are much more dangerous on the flanks and running between the lines.
  5. Nov 2, 2018
    #5

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    On Messi.

    He's definitely the best player on the park and by far the biggest threat in the attacking third as well as greatest goalscorer on the pitch.

    Against Arbitrium excellent defence the false 9 role will suit him best, especially without Makelele sitting in the middle between the lines.

    Messi's false 9 role thrived exactly in that space between the midfield and defence where he can get the ball in deeper positions, dribble his way through goal and also bring others Robben/Ronaldinho into play:





    In this role and the space Alves and Bobby Carlos will leave behind his all round game could be really devastating.
  6. Nov 2, 2018
    #6

    Edgar Allan Pillow Ero-Sennin

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    Arbitrium's defence is better, but Engima has a more balanced midfield and attack. Don't really rate Carlos Alberto as a wingback. Facchetti was good, but then again Carlos and Alves are better as a wingbacks.

    Masopust and Breitner would do well with a dedicated pivot behind them. The team misses someone like Pluskal in the setup.
  7. Nov 2, 2018
    #7

    Himannv Full Member

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    I really didn't want to run into that Enigma/TRV team in the first round. It's an incredible side really.

    I think Arbitrium's back three is incredible and would beat anybody but Enigma/TRV are better everywhere else.
  8. Nov 2, 2018
    #8
    @Enigma_87

    I think swapping Facchetti and Carlos would improve both our teams.

    Thoughts?
  9. Nov 2, 2018
    #9
    Not in midfield. It’s schiaffino, Masopust and breitner v redondo and vieira.
  10. Nov 2, 2018
    #10

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    Naa, I rate Carlos a lot, but Facchetti is plainly better mate. He's to me the greatest LB/LWB of all time and can score goals, but also better than Carlos defensively. Especially in the wing back role wouldn't trade him with anybody, including Nilton.
  11. Nov 2, 2018
    #11
    @Enigma_87 if you are using peak Ronaldinho you are limiting the effect of Facchetti and messi to an extent. Obviously you can’t use any other version but I don’t see the point of Facchetti offering anything offensively this game. It’s all about your front 3 and it’s up against the best defence in the draft.
  12. Nov 2, 2018
    #12

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    Cheers, mate. We really like a lot what we compiled and that attack considering the variety, goals and flair between them is fantastic. :drool:
  13. Nov 2, 2018
    #13
    Carlos would play off redondo, Ronaldinho and Messi significantly better IMO
  14. Nov 2, 2018
    #14
    False 9 messi was so good because of the set up and tactics of Barcelona. He needs industrious wingers and a controlling midfield 3. He doesn’t have either.
  15. Nov 2, 2018
    #15

    Don Alfredo Full Member

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    Not the biggest fan of Vieira and Puyol, I think Masopust and especially Kempes will have a lot of joy down that inside left channel while Sammer has to watch Schiaffino. The rest of Enigma/TRV's is spot on and really good for a first round side.

    Baresi vs Messi is the stuff of legends:drool:

    Will watch the discussion closely before voting:)
  16. Nov 2, 2018
    #16

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    Schiaffino is indeed a great silky player, but he's classic #10 for me and love to see him getting picked. He lacked the pace and agility tho - his biggest weakness and whilst he can put a shift in I doubt he'll be as instrumental for the midfield battle like Sammer.
  17. Nov 2, 2018
    #17

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    Ronaldino has loads of space to work into. That's his best role switching through inside left and outside left channel. He always played with an overlapping full back. He's in his zone here, like Facchetti and Messi are really.

    Find it odd considering he had Carlos in the NT and Gio for Barca. If I have the chance I'd always combine a more attacking left back with Ronnie.

    Also Robben and DInho moving through the lines and also cutting in will leave Messi with a lot of options for one two's or finding either of them in space.

    Robben and Ronaldinho cutting in also means CAT and Facchetti overlapping and we've seen how many times Barca's full backs were at the end of Messi's passes.
  18. Nov 2, 2018
    #18

    Himannv Full Member

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    I feel Masopust and Breitner need someone more defensive-minded alongside them to be more effective. I don't see such problems with Vieira and Redondo.

    I do think those 3 CBs at the back are incredible players though. I think if anyone can stop Messi, Ronaldinho, and Robben, it's those three.
  19. Nov 2, 2018
    #19

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    Facchetti can do the same tho, being much more comfortable defending on the side. Barca's sides worked well with full backs like Abidal and Gio who are much inferior to either of them and I doubt whether it is Carlos or Facchetti would make any difference stylistically to them.
  20. Nov 2, 2018
    #20

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    Well Vieira was a cnut, but along Keane was the best midfielder Prem ever had. Was colossal at his peak. EURO winner, WC winner(some part in the final) WC finalist - he has won it all really, but also brings a lot of steel to the midfield.

    As for Puyol, sure he's not a GOAT defender, but he was really solid and dependable one, especially considering the task in hand. I'd say he has what it takes in his locker to sniff out the danger, especially alongside 2 GOAT wing backs, Sammer and Ferrara. He's certainly not exposed here.
  21. Nov 2, 2018
    #21

    Don Alfredo Full Member

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    Vieira was a very good player indeed, but I rate Masopust in a different tier. As one of only three Ballon D'Or winning midfielders (not counting number 10's), he is alongside the company of Matthäus and Luis Suarez.

    Yeah Puyol is not exposed horribly here you are right about that. Still Kempes could have been a Ballon D'Or winner according to Le nouveau palmares. What is the consensus on that around here?
  22. Nov 2, 2018
    #22

    green_smiley :lol:

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    Like Arbitrium's back five better. It's as good as it gets

    Not much separating the midfield

    Can't overlook Enigma's front three
  23. Nov 2, 2018
    #23

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    Ballon D'or is really dependent on the competition and the year tho. Belanov is a Ballon d'Or winner and he's hardly in the company of Van Basten who won 2 years later. Kempes is excellent player but inferior to either of our front three.

    Masopust and Breitner as mentioned would work a bit better with a holder, they offer a bit the same qualities and also liked the left center midfield role so might overlap in their roles, although not much of a critique.

    Essentially it comes to who will score more goals, and you really can't look past our front three.
  24. Nov 2, 2018
    #24
    Honestly, I don't think the midfield battle is much of a contest. When considering it from a defensive perspective, I have absolutely zero requirement to worry about that battle thanks to the defenders I have behind my midfield. Baresi would be quite comfortable stepping up to deal with Messi, and can anyone honestly say that theres a better man in the history of the game to be given that task?

    Now consider the defensive capabilities of Breitner and Masopust which arent elite, but certainly enough to be effective against the attacking characteristics of Redondo and Vieira. Redondo scored 14 goals in his career for club and country from 430 games. Vieira scored 58 from 651. that essentially 1 goal in every 15 games combined. (Breitner and Masopust combine for 1 little over a goal every 4 games). I am Not worried about their attacking influence AT ALL, considering it effectively leaves Nesta, Thuram and Baresi to deal with the remaining threat. Again, the front 3 of enigma/trv have never came up against a defence of that quality. All of those defenders have came up against similar level attacking units and done significantly well. I COMPLETELY understand that attack is much more of a reason to justify a vote but I literally can think of a more well equipped unit to deal with those 3.

    The Messi Conundrum.

    So easy to throw a vote on that side because of how pretty it looks but honestly, this set up and those players DO NOT get the best out of Messi. The only player i can actually see working well with Messi is Carlos Alberto. Barcelona 08-11 didn't have a left footed right winger who was a bit of a ball hogg, not the greatest one touch passer in the world and who almost definitely wouldn't dream of tracking back in this side. When Robben did attempt to put a shift in defensively, here's what happened (ironic that it's messi embarassing him)



    Barcelone 08-11 also didn't have Ronaldinho, instead opting for a player to keep the play Wide. One of the players tasked with that was Thierry Henry so let him explain how Messi central sides operated and then ask is that the demands that could be expected of ronaldinho?



    The answer is no, because since we have false 9 messi we have guardiola's messi. And since we have guardiola's messi, we have the evidence that one of the great modern coaches didn't even want to take a chance on making this partnership work and lets be honest, if guardiola knew these two could play together in this false 9 set-up, ronaldinho gets at least another year at barcelona but alas, he was shipped off to Italy.

    https://www.soccerladuma.co.za/news...-pep-Guardiola-did-not-want-ronaldinho/225704
  25. Nov 2, 2018
    #25

    Gio ★★★★★★★★

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    This in a nutshell.

    Good wing-back debate. Think Facchetti/Carlos Alberto are clear winners as full-backs. As wing-backs it's probably about even. I rate Carlos and Facchetti as the gold standard at LWB and it's more about fit for the job in hand. Facchetti more accomplished defensively, with the left-footed Carlos creating an extra attacking angle outside and beyond a wide attacker that cuts inside.
  26. Nov 2, 2018
    #26
    Even the wing backs goals records are somewhat similar, certainly not enough of a gap to argue either way.
  27. Nov 2, 2018
    #27

    Jim Beam Full Member

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    Really curious why you went for Sammer considering you already had Redondo @Enigma_87?

    Sammer wants to influence the game by stepping in and Redondo wants to control it from the deep. Not the ideal combo to bring the best out of them and I can see them overlapping many times.
  28. Nov 2, 2018
    #28
    HERNAN CRESPO

    Just incase anyone needed a reminder of how good he was and whether or not he can do well in this game, here's some nostalgia which is ironically Crespo making Ferrara look like a mug :drool:



    And here is parma's demolotion job of an AC milan team with Maldini and Costacurta in defence, which Crespo played a huge part in. His first goal is just beautiful to watch, like something messi would do given the small amount of space he had to work with.

  29. Nov 2, 2018
    #29

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    Sammer often is regarded as great all rounder but rarely gets the plaudits he’s due for being first and foremost a fantastic defender. He’s great organizer at the back and there’s a good amount of space between them not to overlap in their roles. Whilst both being excellent passers they are different in their game and Sammer brings a great share of physicality and energy in midfield, whilst Redondo is the more elegant of the two.

    Sammer game included some surging runs from behind with quick one two transitions which alongside Redondo would be very easy to replicate.

    Also with Sammer overloading the midfield we need someone to hold the position and a holder makes perfect sense especially one with superior positional sense who can sniff counters if we lose the ball.

    Personally think both will love to play with each other.
  30. Nov 2, 2018
    #30
    The trouble with Sammer is that Baresi can do everything Sammer can do only better.
  31. Nov 2, 2018
    #31

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    Both of our wing backs are the superior players tho. They have to contribute in both phases and those qualities which are much needed in a back four will also come into play in this game. Being a wing back won’t excempt them from defensive responsibility and both our wing backs are superior in that sense.

    Also bear in mind that Bobby Carlos and Alves are agains one of the best wingers /wing forwards in the modern game and their defensive game would surely be tested.
  32. Nov 2, 2018
    #32

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    20,418
    We have to take into an account who are they up against tho and our attacking trio is much better and much more likely to our score you. :)
  33. Nov 2, 2018
    #33
    Another battle I think I win here is that I have more players who can rightfully be considered as a genuine attacking threat.

    Crespo, Kempes, Schiaffino, Breitner, Masopust, Roberto Carlos and Dani Alves. That's 7 players who on their day could all be man of the match in any given game.

    Messi, Robben, Ronaldinho, Carlos Alberto and Facchetti. A case could maybe be made for Sammer but for me he should be considered from a defensive standpoint today and for always. So there you have 5 players all capable of being man of the match on any given day.

    Redondo for me gets a bit overrated, and definitely thrived in a system which enigma/trv isn't using. If he hadn't done this then I don't think he'd be as highly regarded by some;



    And lets face it, he ain't doing that to any of my defenders.
  34. Nov 2, 2018
    #34

    P-Nut fan of well-known French footballer Fabinho

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2015
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    13,926
    Location:
    Oldham, Greater Manchester
    Enjoying the discussion so far, I'll hold off voting for now
  35. Nov 2, 2018
    #35

    Jim Beam Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2017
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    Bat Country
    I absolutely agree about him being underrated here in terms of defensive influence. Even all-around ability. Immense player.

    Just feel it's not a perfect combo, Redondo will play quick one, two, no problem. He also likes to organize the game from the deep and I feel like you have two alphas colliding in some way. Btw. Redondo was extremely physical, even aggressive, his main issue was (deceptive) lack of pace. In that sense, I can see them working very good in the defensive phase. Have some clear doubts about that pair in attack though.

    Great team btw. Have to give you benefit of doubt here as besides having a brilliant attacking three, you're rock solid behind also.
  36. Nov 2, 2018
    #36
    Are we just forgetting that Mario Kempes is one of three players in history to win every award available at a world cup tournament (world cup, golden boot and golden ball). And that Hernan Crespo banged in 26 league goals in 2000-2001, a period for italian football which had one of the greatest collection of defences of all time? And let's not forget Schiaffino, a world cup final goalscoring all star.
  37. Nov 2, 2018
    #37
    I think it's a fascinating battle personally. Would have no quarrels getting absolutely humped, me humping them or it being a draw. So much to interpret.
  38. Nov 2, 2018
    #38
    @antohan you will know more than most here, but in my head schiaffino has an amazing game here thanks to the level of movement from my midfield 2, wing backs and the two argentines up front.

    I contrast that with the movement of robben and ronaldinho, which is pretty predictable and almost never varied. Robben is gonna stand out wide right and cut inside, and if he gets past Carlos then Nesta is smart enough to step out and deal with him every single time.
  39. Nov 2, 2018
    #39
  40. Nov 2, 2018
    #40
    Apologies for the music here, but here is a video showing off Dani Alves defensive side of the game, which for me is a higher level than Carlos Alberto (Not much to separate them offensively)

    This is all against a peak pace/dribbling abilities Ronaldo, so I think its perfectly acceptable to accept that he can deal with Ronaldinho when he drifts out left, and Definitely deal with Facchetti.