The Trayvon Martin shooting

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by Mick1991, Mar 18, 2012.

  1. Mar 18, 2012
    #1

    Mick1991 Full Member

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    It's not new news, but I have been following it a little bit since the story broke last month. It's interesting because a white man shoots an unarmed black kid, so the racial divide comes to the fore of the story (rightly or wrongly).

    This is a pretty decent timeline of what happened.

    http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...n-shooting-20120317_1_shooting-sanford-police

    Something like this is so alien to me, but I'd like to get other peoples read on the story. Zimmerman hasn't been charged (yet, he was questioned and released, with the Martin family being told he had acted in self defense). Does that hold up? Was this an act of self defense?, or an over zealous neighbourhood watchman taking his little bit of power and turning himself into the sheriff of a small gated community?
  2. Mar 18, 2012
    #2

    ArmchairCritic You got pets me too mines are dead

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    Shooting a kid with a bag of skittles in self-defence? GTFOH. This is what happens when you give people the 'right' to carry a gun. If the roles were the other round, the lad would've been arrested straight away.
  3. Mar 18, 2012
    #3

    Mick1991 Full Member

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    It looks like that is the way it will go (in so far as that is what the Martin family claimed they were told, no reason to disbelieve them considering he hasn't been arrested and the police investigation has concluded).

    It would have to be a turnaround from the state's attorneys office for something to happen now. It seems to be one man's word, against a dead boy's word.

    It puts the police in a tough situation.
  4. Mar 18, 2012
    #4

    ArmchairCritic You got pets me too mines are dead

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    He shot an unarmed 17 year-old who wasn't doing anything wrong, I don't get American Justice at all, it seems pretty clear cut to me as to what should be done.
  5. Mar 18, 2012
    #5

    Mick1991 Full Member

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    Same, it doesn't tend to help when you publicly discredit a witness either. Even though I can appreciate that it is a tough situation for the police, that just seems ridiculous to me.

    If it did ever go to trial (unlikely, but you never know what might come to light) they have completely annihilated that person's insight to what happened.
  6. Mar 18, 2012
    #6

    mjs020294 Banned

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    There really doesn't seem to be enough information in the reports I have read to know for sure what occurred. I found this quote which would make a murder conviction very difficult without independent witnesses.

    "Despite Zimmerman having injuries consistent with self-defense, he also had a gun,"

    He was working in a neighborhood watch role, and I am presuming he had a concealed permit. You're not however allowed to draw a weapon, let alone shoot it, without good cause to think your (or someone else's) life is in danger.
  7. Mar 20, 2012
    #7

    Cali Red Full Member

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    Heard a little more today, he has called the police something like 46 times in the last year. Almost always to report an African American "suspect". He is the "self appointed" head of the neighborhood watch.

    Sounds like a wanna be cop and probably racist. I know the law in Florida is what's causing this but how do you not place the man under arrest, question him and then release him. Seems like a bad situation. Gunning down a kid with a coke and a bag of skittles is a bad deal.

    ^This
  8. Mar 20, 2012
    #8

    Red Dreams Full Member

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    the 'real' problem is an idiotic law that binds the hands of the police. Read somewhere the police can be sued by a 'wrongful' arrest.

    Just thinking of that kid who died....I feel sick man.

    if the shooter had been black and the kid white, would the police have tried harder to find 'cause'?

    This guy should not have been on the streets in Any watch...

    tragic...
  9. Mar 20, 2012
    #9

    Cali Red Full Member

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    Can't disagree. I feel horrible for the young mans family. I have a son his age. I'd be out for blood if I was one of them.
  10. Mar 20, 2012
    #10

    Red Dreams Full Member

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    I hope and pray that sensible heads prevail...before this becomes a race 'war'.

    For that not to happen, some brave people in Florida need to step forward...from the white community.
  11. Mar 20, 2012
    #11

    mjs020294 Banned

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    The shooter wasn't even a white/caucasian guy FFS.

    I am sure charges will follow once the State Attorney reviews the case.


    The case against him is slowly strengthening:

    SANFORD - The handgun that killed Trayvon Martin, an unarmed black 17-year-old, was fired once – not twice – by a neighborhood crime watch volunteer, according to new information obtained by the Orlando Sentinel.

    Police found a single shell casing at the scene, and when they seized George Zimmerman's handgun, a Kel Tel 9 mm, its magazine was full, according to a source close to the investigation. The only bullet missing was the one in the chamber, the source said.


    What the hell is he walking around with a chambered round for in the first place, fecking nutjob.
  12. Mar 20, 2012
    #12

    Mick1991 Full Member

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    Yep, just seemed like he had lost the plot. Was reading some other stuff about him actively approaching people in the neighbourhood, asking where they lived, to state their business.

    Obsessive behaviour.
  13. Mar 20, 2012
    #13

    mjs020294 Banned

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    Under the stand your ground laws your meant to be threatened without escape. Problem in this case is there are no witnesses so a decent defense lawyer will probably place doubt in the minds of the jury. The attorney needs to build a very solid case and get the charges spot on to have a chance with this one I am afraid.
  14. Mar 20, 2012
    #14

    Mick1991 Full Member

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    I agree, and that's why I think the police/state's attorney are hesitant to pursue. There's nothing solid here to really go after him with. A good defense lawyer would have it torn to shreds.
  15. Mar 20, 2012
    #15

    mjs020294 Banned

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    Personally if I was the kids father I'd want the guy on the streets.
  16. Mar 20, 2012
    #16

    adexkola American Arse

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    Why did he not follow the instructions of law enforcement not to pursue the kid?

    Technically it'll be hard to nail him, but it leaves a bad taste in the mouth.
  17. Mar 20, 2012
    #17

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    Ok, so I'm no expert on the intricacies of American law (or the specifics of this case) but did someone really take a loaded gun out for the night and shoot another man dead without being arrested?

    What the feckety feck? :confused:
  18. Mar 20, 2012
    #18

    Frosty Logical and sensible but turns women gay

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    http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...en_prosecuted_.single.html#pagebreak_anchor_2

    This should shed some light.
  19. Mar 20, 2012
    #19

    Neutral BTV

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    Ice Tea and Skittles up against an armed man who targeted and followed him - yup, sounds like self-defense to me.

    Poor kid, guilty of being black.
  20. Mar 20, 2012
    #20

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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  21. Mar 20, 2012
    #21

    adexkola American Arse

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    The police can be sued for wrongful arrest. With so much ambiguity, their hands are tied, unfortunately.

    I can't say it was a racial killing for sure, but it looks like it. Just like the Diallo killing in New York. I'm going to Jacksonville in May, I know I won't be walking at night through any suburbs while i'm down there.
  22. Mar 20, 2012
    #22

    adexkola American Arse

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    And the idiot still followed. He can't be locked up for disobeying authority?
  23. Mar 20, 2012
    #23

    Sir Matt Full Member

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    His continuing to follow the kid could could be used as evidence of premeditation on his part.
  24. Mar 20, 2012
    #24

    FCBarca Full Member

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    I talk often to friends back in the US and I always get the 'Don't you miss it here and want to come back?'...Shit like the Trayvon Martin thing, it happens far more than you'd imagine...I miss friends & family but there's far too much lunacy

    It looks like an open & shut case really yet the FBI has to get involved? :rolleyes:
  25. Mar 20, 2012
    #25

    mjs020294 Banned

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    To Pogues post above, someone with a concealed permit can carry a gun in most public places, aside from a few exceptions like bars, schools, airport, court houses etc. Under the stand your ground law a citizen can use deaily force IF they believe their or someone esles life is in danger.

    With no witnesses to the incident that leaves the police in a very sticky situation. The guy has to cooperate and go to the police station for interviews but until they have a real case against him it would be foolish to arrrest the guy. Hopefully the attourneys office will put a case togther that carries a long prision sentence.

    This guy is obviously a nutjob. Our local news played about 10 of his calls to 911 from teh last years or so: when asked for a description of the suspicious person he starts every sentence off with "He/they are black........."...so fecking transparent.
  26. Mar 20, 2012
    #26

    niMic Curvy gay

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    This is supremely fecked up. So he follows an unarmed kid who had a perfectly good reason to be there, after being told by the police not to follow, and then shoots and kills him. And he hasn't been arrested.

    Just feck everything about it. In a civilized society such a thing shouldn't be possible.
  27. Mar 20, 2012
    #27

    mjs020294 Banned

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    FYI - a disapatcher is NOT the police. They are civilains.
  28. Mar 20, 2012
    #28

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    As explained in Frosty's post above.

    It's absolute fecking madness, of course. When the stakes are this high, the burden of proof should be on the guy holding the smoking gun and he should be arrested immediately to assist with the investigation. If you don't want to get arrested, don't kill people.

    The law really is an ass in this instance. The power of the gun lobby in America is as astonishing as it is depressing.
  29. Mar 20, 2012
    #29

    Sir Matt Full Member

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    Innocent until proven guilty. While the media doesn't operate that way, the law does.
  30. Mar 20, 2012
    #30

    adexkola American Arse

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    Now, some people have raised the question of, what if Trayvon was white and Zimmerman was black? Higher chance of him being arrested on the spot, no?
  31. Mar 20, 2012
    #31

    Drainy Full Member

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    Forget about it
    there is no doubt that he killed him, the burden of proof should be on him to demonstrate it was self defense.
  32. Mar 20, 2012
    #32

    niMic Curvy gay

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    Well that doesn't make much difference, though. He was still told to stay away.
  33. Mar 20, 2012
    #33

    Sir Matt Full Member

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    I don't think, in this case, the burden of proof is on the individual though. It's still with the state to prove it wasn't self-defense.
  34. Mar 20, 2012
    #34

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    And so it should.

    Of course, it's up to the courts to decide whether or not someone is guilty of a crime. The job of the police is to arrest people who they suspect might have broken the law.

    You know, like someone who just shot and killed an unarmed man?
  35. Mar 20, 2012
    #35

    Drainy Full Member

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    Forget about it
    if you kill someone, you have committed the crime of murder. Saying it is self-defense is saying you have a mitigating circumstance where the charge shouldn't stand. Its up to you to make your case that this is true.

    Thats how I see it. I'm all for innocent until proven guilty, but where the act has been committed by the defendant beyond a reasonable doubt mitigating circumstances need to be compelling not "its coming right for us"
  36. Mar 20, 2012
    #36

    mjs020294 Banned

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    It would make absolutely no difference to the police. The shooter wasn't white BTW which screws your attempt to make this a racist issue on the police part.
  37. Mar 20, 2012
    #37

    africanspur Full Member

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    http://globalgrind.com/news/michael...immerman-race-sanford-florida-photos-pictures

    mjs, you don't need to be white to be racist.

    Sorry, I misread your post. I'm not saying either way whether this has anything to do with police racism (the laws of the state are ridiculous) but the fact that the shooter wasn't white doesn't preclude the police from approaching this in a racist manner, whether subconscious or conscious.
  38. Mar 20, 2012
    #38

    mjs020294 Banned

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    You're making a lot of assumptions there. With no witnesses they really only have the shooters account. What if the kid confronted him and a scuffle ensued, and a struggle occurred with both of them fighting for the gun? That may have been his account and the wound might support it.

    Let the attorney process all the info and evidence and file charges that stick.
  39. Mar 20, 2012
    #39

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    I'm not making any assumptions. I just stated that an unarmed 17 year old got shot dead and "the man who fired the gun" (as described by the police spokesman) didn't get arrested. Which is fecking nuts.

    My issue here isn't with the specifics of the shooting (other than as yet another example of the lunacy of making it relatively easy for people to carry guns) rather it's with the way it's been investigated. This whole "Stand Your Ground" law sounds deeply flawed. Beggars belief that a (supposedly) civilised society would feel the need for such a thing.
  40. Mar 20, 2012
    #40

    Drainy Full Member

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    Forget about it


    you decide who is screaming for help. All I'll say is that when a witness said they heard Treyvon screaming for help, the police corrected them and said it was Zimmerman based on his word. Whether they are racists, who knows, they are clearly biased.

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