The trial of Anders Behring Breivik

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by Saliph, Apr 10, 2012.

  1. Apr 17, 2012
    #81

    niMic Curvy gay

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    I thought that as well, when I this first happened, and the Manifesto was out there (as in, essentially as it was happening). Now, I am not so sure. Nothing he has shown since then has been a sign of any great intelligence. Quite the opposite, actually. He clearly thinks he's some kind of genius, though.

    He's probably not outright stupid, but I don't think you have to be that intelligent to pull this off. Just immensely determined and focused (and devoid of a conscience). He was nearly caught several times. Essentially, the reason this worked is because nothing remotely like it has ever happened in Norway. He left lots of clues, in retrospect.
  2. Apr 17, 2012
    #82

    Laphroaig Full Member

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    niMic is right. There is no reason to think his actions show great intelligence. Most people could have pulled it off if they really wanted to. His determination is probably more striking than his intelligence. And his possible intelligence is only a sort of practical intelligence. His political thought clearly proves that he's a weak thinker.
  3. Apr 17, 2012
    #83

    niMic Curvy gay

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    There's a vast amount of inconsistencies in his explanations. It's obvious that he's chosen to simply overlook them, and make everything fit his "I am defending Norway" claim.
  4. Apr 17, 2012
    #84

    bazalini The Baz Man - He made us laugh 2000 - 2012

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    I love my Phycology and find this case intriguing. I love watching his body behavior and how he conducts himself.

    To me I'd say he is very educated, would be excellent at chess, be driven, tidy, clinical. I'd say he has a pet - which he loves.

    I would not be surprised if Breiviks next step was to kill himself and become a Martyr in his own world. I'd even say he has this planned as well
  5. Apr 17, 2012
    #85

    niMic Curvy gay

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    He's not very educated at all.
  6. Apr 17, 2012
    #86

    Laphroaig Full Member

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    I wish people in this thread claiming that Breivik is (probably) intelligent or educated would actually argue why that is. Those of us in Norway who is following the case and the trial more closely have a different opinion, so to me it looks like it simply stems from ignorance.
    It's as if he communicates a very confused understanding of his responsibility for his actions. This "war" is started by the multiculturalists, so it is they who are responsible for the attacks and the deaths. Yet it is he who has made a sacrifice and should get credit for it.
  7. Apr 17, 2012
    #87

    niMic Curvy gay

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    I can sort of see where they're coming from, if they haven't been following it as closely as us. At first I also assumed he had to be some kind of evil, obsessed genius. But he's not. He's just evil and obsessed.
  8. Apr 17, 2012
    #88

    mjs020294 Banned

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    I haven't been following taht closely. How did he get hold of his firearms and hollow points? Are they legal in Norway.
  9. Apr 17, 2012
    #89

    Laphroaig Full Member

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    He's pathetic. Now they are questioning Breivik about biographical episodes he attaches great meaning to, things that have shaped him. One of these is a fight with a Muslim gang in which he got his nose broken. However, records from his plastic surgeon reveals that his broke has never been broken. Inventing a broken nose to justify slaughtering a bunch of kids. Way to go.
  10. Apr 17, 2012
    #90

    bazalini The Baz Man - He made us laugh 2000 - 2012

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    Did a classmate and his school not come out and say he was highly intelligent?
  11. Apr 17, 2012
    #91

    peterstorey Specialist In Failure

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    It don't know about intelligent but he's clearly insane.
  12. Apr 17, 2012
    #92

    mjs020294 Banned

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    It is certainly hard to fathom how someone of sound mind could commit such a crime.
  13. Apr 17, 2012
    #93

    niMic Curvy gay

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    It all depends on what you mean by insane. Was Hitler insane? Were any number of the Nazis insane? What about the Japanese in China during WW2, were they all insane?
  14. Apr 17, 2012
    #94

    Pexbo Takes body parts and sells them on Amazon.

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    Have they made any other arrests linked to his political agendas? I'm assuming he was in contact with other extreme thinking people, is he really just one mental man or is there a bit of a sinister movement being led somewhere?

    Genuine questions by the way, I'm not trying to provoke debate with rhetoric or anything. I'm just wondering if it was linked to some sort of party like a "Norwegian BNP"?
  15. Apr 17, 2012
    #95

    Laphroaig Full Member

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    No, he acted on his own. He has made various claims about contact with other groups (I think he's supposed to have met some Knight Templars group in England in 2001?), and he is claiming that there are two other cells in Norway, both of which consisting of a single person. The investigators believe that the Knights Templar organisation is something Breivik has made up. Everything points to him having acted all by himself, although worryingly many will share some of his central political views.
  16. Apr 17, 2012
    #96

    cinc Full Member

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    It's pretty hard to fathom how anyone with a sound mind could commit any kind of violent crime. He is obviously has very serious issues, but that shouldnt be a reason for not putting him into prison.
  17. Apr 17, 2012
    #97

    iSparky Likes Dags. but not as much as his Dad

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    Yep, same as me. I am finding his behaviour and how he is conducting himself to be fascinating.
  18. Apr 17, 2012
    #98

    Anderson's Cat AC

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    Don't drop the Soap Anders.
  19. Apr 17, 2012
    #99

    Kaos Full Member

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    His unfathomably despicable crimes would suggest he's insane, but his calm and collected demeanour in court suggests otherwise. I'm no psychologist but my immediate impressions following the horrific events was 'Schizo', but I'm not even sure anymore. Makes him seem that much more frightening as a human imo.
  20. Apr 17, 2012

    Saliph Banned

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    I'd concur with that he seems to think he's smarter than he is, but I'd be careful with judging his intelligence based on his fanaticism and the supposed lack of cohesion in his ideological convictions. He's an articulate guy who certainly has more knowledge than the average person, at least on this topic (this is based on the parts of his manifesto that I've read), and the fact that the Norwegian media and so-called public intellectuals are trying to ridicule and kill his credibility doesn't really prove anything, because they were going to do that no matter what.

    As others have mentioned, I'd say his determination and control are more striking than his intelligence, but he's certainly not stupid.
  21. Apr 17, 2012

    Hectic Admin

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    My thoughts exactly. I didn't say he possessed great intelligence, but I'd doubt he was anywhere near stupid or a low level of intelligence.
  22. Apr 17, 2012

    Laphroaig Full Member

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    I've read bits of it too and I don't think he's any more or less articulate than the average person. He probably has some significant knowledge about his fields of interest, just like anyone who has interests they spend time on. A lot of the manifest is just copy paste. Basically he had a few more or less rational prejudices and then he picked and chose bits and bobs to build an ideological worldview to make sense of his prejudices, ignoring the stuff that didn't fit in. Just like we all do. I agree that people were always going to look for flaws in his thinking, but unsurprisingly it has been easy to do so.

    Yeah, to call him stupid is as unfounded as calling him intelligent. The point is that it's not his intellectual powers that has been of importance. It's "simply" a cocktail of a warped worldview, determination and probably some mental defects.
  23. Apr 17, 2012

    bazalini The Baz Man - He made us laugh 2000 - 2012

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    As stated earlier, here is the legal definition.

    If you are brainwashed are you insane?
  24. Apr 17, 2012

    Laphroaig Full Member

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    He's not very educated (at least not formally, but he's come up with some weird numbers about how much he has studied on his own), no idea about his chess abilities, he's clearly driven, he hates spiders. Don't think he's had a pet.
    He has said that he expected to become a martyr at Utøya, but noone killed him. I don't expect him to kill himself, it doesn't seem logical based on his warped sense of things. (But what do I know?)
    I've not heard about that.
    Seeing as we all know what he's done and that he admits to it, and that we know his reasoning, the only really interesting bit is whether or not he's legally sane. As you might know we have had two pairs of forensic psychiatrists conduct a psychiatric analysis of him. The first report said he was legally insane, the second concluded that he's legally sane.

    It's obviously a very interesting philosophical and psychological topic. Your definition mentions the ability to distinguish fantasy from reality. Breivik was afraid of being watched by the Police Security Service, but he wasn't. However, such a paranoia is probably quite logical when you're planning the biggest terrorist attack ever in Norway. Ideally he should have been watched (and caught). And of course there's a lot of fantasy in the ideological views that motivated his attacks, but as I said above, we all pick and choose the bits of reality that fit int with our preexisting views to some extent. Where's the limit? More interestingly Breivik has been very conscious of the "sacrifices" he had to make (social isolation) and that his emotions might get in the way of what he wanted to achieve, so he's gone to lengths to eradicate his inner opposition to doing it (with medication and music f.ex.).
  25. Apr 17, 2012

    bazalini The Baz Man - He made us laugh 2000 - 2012

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    love this in today's questioning

  26. Apr 17, 2012

    bazalini The Baz Man - He made us laugh 2000 - 2012

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    http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/norge/1.7724579
  27. Apr 17, 2012

    Laphroaig Full Member

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    Haha. I'm not surprised.
    What was that a reply to?
  28. Apr 17, 2012

    bazalini The Baz Man - He made us laugh 2000 - 2012

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    To a comment you made about me and other posters at 1.48pm "I wish people in this thread claiming that Breivik is (probably) intelligent or educated would actually argue why that is."

    In this video a classmate said that he was highly intelligent.

    You don't own this thread Laphraoig, nor shall you be allowed preach down to others. Personally anyone who goes out and makes a bomb of such magnitude is highly skilled and intelligent
  29. Apr 17, 2012

    Laphroaig Full Member

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    Are you sure? I only read it and it said nothing about that and the video has been removed.
    What the feck are you on about? I've disagreed with some people and said why, and I've asked people claiming he's intelligent to argue their case. Quite normal stuff for a discussion forum, you touchy git.

    So the bomb: From what I understand you can basically find the recipe on that on the interwebs. Now you can feck up a recipe of course, I sometime do when I cook, but more often than not it works. Finding the ingredients can be a bit of a hassle and clearly it was for Breivik. Research and determination were needed.
  30. Apr 17, 2012

    Jimy_Hills_Chin Desperately wants to be ITK

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    Surly to be legally insane he would have to be suffering from some sort of psychological illness.

    He seems to me to be a maladjusted psychopath. He probably feels marginalised by society and in his own twisted view of the World, one that his ego would see as the absolute truth, he has taken his own brand of revenge on those who he sees as propagating societies ills. Though he is most likely displacing his own personal sense of failure. He also seems to be deeply vain and I think that this trail is probably the greatest thing that has ever happened to him, the world is his stage.

    He doesn't seem delusional in the sense of imagining things that are not there through psychosis. It seems to me that he has taken extreme views on multiculturalism and that he is sadly the kind of person that is capable of taking the most extreme and devastating measures to support his views.
  31. Apr 17, 2012

    bazalini The Baz Man - He made us laugh 2000 - 2012

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    Auch come on, Many global terrorist organizations work in teams to carry out controlled bombings and many fail. You need intelligence to be researchful & determined
  32. Apr 17, 2012

    Saliph Banned

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    It's certainly not easy to build a bomb like that, even if you have the recipe. Breivik has been compared to Timothy McVeigh, who built a similar bomb, and his IQ was assessed at 126, which is high. I don't think Breivik's is as high as that mind.
  33. Apr 17, 2012

    Laphroaig Full Member

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    Well I think one reason why is that global terrorist networks are monitored to a much larger degree. One striking thing about ABB is how simple it is to pull off something of that magnitude as a lone actor. Most normal persons are able to create havoc if they set their mind to it, and as long as you are completely off the radar and focus on keeping it that way, it's not much the police can do. It's scary, but the alternative is a society in which everyone and everything is watched, so it's probably the preferable alternative.

    I suppose you need intelligence to be researchful at least, but I reiterate that I don't think he's stupid, I certainly don't think he's IQ challenge, my only point was that I don't think we have good reason to think he's exceptionally intelligent. I'll admit that I don't know a lot about making bombs and might underestimate the capacities required to do it. But he's been planning this shit for up to ten years, I think. That's plenty of time to learn difficult stuff.
  34. Apr 17, 2012

    Jimy_Hills_Chin Desperately wants to be ITK

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    Was his Dad not some economic diplomat too? He is obviously of intelligence but I would imagine that in his own mind he is some sort of genius.
  35. Apr 17, 2012

    bazalini The Baz Man - He made us laugh 2000 - 2012

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    I really think you are viewing this with blinkers on Laphroaig. take your emotion out of analysing him
  36. Apr 17, 2012

    mjs020294 Banned

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    I am going to go out on a limb and say he probably is pretty intelligent. Firstly it does take a fair amount of cunning and at least some intelligence to plan the attacks he made; and secondly people that go off the rails mentally like this guy are often very intelligent. You go back and analyze many of the loner serial killers and a high percentage are highly intelligent individuals.
  37. Apr 17, 2012

    niMic Curvy gay

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    And I'm all out of bubblegum.
    Bazalini, how much have you followed this case? You say your experiences from psychology class tells you he's probably highly educated, which he isn't, and probably highly intelligent, citing as a source a video where a classmate from when he was, 14 maybe, says he was smart (I'm taking your word for it, since I can't view the video for some reason).

    You're not the first to assess his intelligence. It's been done since the beginning, starting with his Manifesto. Have you read it? Large parts are simply copy-pasted, large parts are provably wrong, and none of it seems to be written by some towering intellect. The general opinion in Norway (including from experts) is that he's driven, certainly, very determined and focused, but not necessarily particularly intelligent.
  38. Apr 17, 2012

    niMic Curvy gay

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    Isn't that a bit of a myth? I'm sure I've heard that it's not really true. Maybe among the serial killers who operate longer and thus kill more because, well, the stupid ones get caught.

    I'm not suggesting he's stupid, but like I said earlier, the fact that he didn't get caught is simply because nothing remotely like this has ever happened before in Norway, at all. Hell, he almost got caught when his landlord happened upon his farm.
  39. Apr 17, 2012

    mjs020294 Banned

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    Writing content and style is not always a very good indicator of intelligence TBH. Some people are off the scales when it comes to IQ but they aren’t that articulate with the written word.

    Nope, people with mental issues are often highly intelligent.. Even one off serial killers like the Virginia Tech shooter are often very intelligent individuals.
  40. Apr 17, 2012

    niMic Curvy gay

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    Are you sure about that? A bit of googling seems to suggest it is in fact a myth. A lot of them are intelligent. A lot of them are stupid. Most of them are just average.

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