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This whole "throw in youth with the wholesale changes" thing

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Stobzilla, Jan 5, 2019.

  1. Jan 5, 2019
    #1

    Stobzilla Official Team Perv

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    It needs to die, in the worst way.

    It was never all that successful for SAF, to get the best out of young players, they need to be playing with the best, while they are at their best. Not a bunch of first teamers looking for match rhythm.

    We need to start advocating for a higher upper limit as it pertains to subs allowed on the bench, anything to get more young players some real opportunities in situations that will be of benefit to them.
  2. Jan 5, 2019
    #2

    Sandikan aka sex on the beach

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    You want more than 7 subs on the bench? Surely that's enough to get youngsters on there?
  3. Jan 5, 2019
    #3

    arthurka Full Member

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    Fully agree, never good to swap the whole team. but Fred, Lukaku and Sánchez cost us around 150m ..
  4. Jan 5, 2019
    #4

    khoazany Full Member

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    To be fair for today we had to rest certain players due to hectic schedule, not just because "it's only FA Cup". Our squad is too big (thanks for Mourinho) so will be hard for youngsters to even get on the bench in other circumstances.
  5. Jan 5, 2019
    #5

    Stobzilla Official Team Perv

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    It's not even big enough to get in all of multi million pound signings on nigh on £100k a week we've made. How is it going to be big enough for the youngsters to get on there as well ?

    Granted, our squad could have been managed a lot better the last few years and I am not even saying a bigger bench is the solution, just something needs to happen. The loan system is so low percentage, it isn't fit for purpose.
  6. Jan 5, 2019
    #6

    ErranMorad Full Member

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    There were only two "youth players" (one of them was 23 and the other one 22) that were thrown in today. Rest of team was experienced or expensively bought or both.

    The main worry today was that it again showed how many bad purchases we have made for huge sums of money.
  7. Jan 5, 2019
    #7

    R.N7 Such tagline. Wow!

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    If anything needs to die it's the unwavering belief that all United youth players (except the unglamorous, Scottish ones) are potential world class talents that would walk in side at any given time. It's one of many reasons why Manchester United fans are the worst fans in football.
  8. Jan 5, 2019
    #8

    Sandikan aka sex on the beach

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    Don't like your second line, but the first line is true.
    People only remember the "Class of 92" and "busby babes", but they totally ignore the context.

    Look at the level of player those 92 boys had around them. And they were eased in.
  9. Jan 5, 2019
    #9

    Stobzilla Official Team Perv

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    It isn't just today, (although it has been prompted by today) it is a strategy that hasn't really worked at all.

    I agree about our squad size though, it isn't sustainable at all, not just for us either.
  10. Jan 5, 2019
    #10

    Stobzilla Official Team Perv

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    Over the course of 2/3 years for most of them as well. Butt made his debut in 92/93, same with Neville, Beckham and Scholes a year later (if memory serves) and it took them until 95/96 to be bonafide first team regulars capable of mixing it with those at the top end of the league.
  11. Jan 5, 2019
    #11

    Sandikan aka sex on the beach

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    That "won't win anything with kids" comment was particularly silly from Hanson, as that 95/96 opening day lineup had some real notable players out injured. When the full lineup was available, we obviously showed what was possible.
  12. Jan 5, 2019
    #12

    Dec9003 Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016

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    If anything I'd have liked to see more youth players today than peripheral players.
    At home against a championship side in the cup is the best opportunity these players are likely to get.
  13. Jan 5, 2019
    #13

    Greck Full Member

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    Under SAF it wasn't really about their performances when we played them in cup games. He had a process and plan for their slow introduction. We lost cup games playing youth in dysfunctional teams but it didn't matter because we knew it wasn't the end of them at the club. I'm sure Ole won't give up on youngsters because they don't produce in a makeshift team either
  14. Jan 5, 2019
    #14

    Judas Open to offers

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    Yeah for example a player like Chong would get more out of coming on with 15 minutes to go in a league game when its already won, with the first team already out there than today.
  15. Jan 5, 2019
    #15

    Eric's Seagull Full Member

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    If we were under Jose, the youngsters probably wouldn't have played, the team may have been makeshift anyway and we may have lost.
  16. Jan 5, 2019
    #16

    Amir Full Member

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    I'm not a fan of it, but after the tight Christmas schedule and with a comfortable opponent, it was a good chance to let as many players as possible rest. It was never going to be a great performance but we got the win. Sometimes it's enough.
  17. Jan 5, 2019
    #17

    Greck Full Member

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    If we were under Jose I'd be worried he'd use the performance as an excuse to keep the young players out of the team for another season or two. With him he always seemed eager to justify players' exclusion
  18. Jan 5, 2019
    #18

    noodlehair "It's like..."

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    The thing I don't like is the whole idea that we have a big squad and can rest people, just because we have loads of players who we use sometimes.

    Any team can have a big squad and rest players if it starts using players who aren't good enough. Other teams either don't rest players, or rest players and GOOD players play in their place. We rest people in order to give games to the likes of Darmian, McTominay, Fellaini etc.

    You can't even start thinking about when and how a youth team player deserves a chance if senior players who get picked don't even have to play well or be good at anything. Set some kind of standard first.

    Realise this isn't a problem of Solskjaer's creating but we've had three previous managers who by the end were just picking players for no reason other than because they were different from the players they picked last time. We need to steer well away from doing anything similar going forwards.
  19. Jan 5, 2019
    #19

    Eric's Seagull Full Member

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    Very true especially part in bold mate. It would have been his excuse our players are not good enough etc
  20. Jan 5, 2019
    #20

    UpWithRivers Full Member

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    The problem is judging them on it. Its impossible. If we bought a 100 mill player and gave them 10 mins against Reading and they didnt do much then nothing would be said except give them more time. But throw on 19 year olds and fans expect 5 goals and 3 assists or they are sht.
  21. Jan 5, 2019
    #21

    Rightnr Full Member

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    We didn't actually play the youth today.... We had one young sub and everyone else was pretty much part of our 1st team squad (if not the starting 11).
  22. Jan 5, 2019
    #22

    Stobzilla Official Team Perv

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    Also read "players who are still developing" then, mi' not going to get hung up on semantics. Dalot, Mctominay, Chong and Perieira probably have less than 100 senior games between them.

    And people wanted Gomes and Greenwood involved in this mess today as well, why the hell not ? We'd have more car crash over reactions like we have in the Chong thread.
  23. Jan 6, 2019
    #23

    OohAahMartial Full Member

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    How a
    How about a new rule allowing a fourth sub for a homegrown U21 player?
  24. Jan 6, 2019
    #24

    Ibrahimorich New Member

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    We had 2 1st eleven players out there today. Young (RB) and Jones (DC). Everyone else out there was fighting for a spot. Hence why there was no tempo, rhythm, intensity etc.

    Agree that we only really played 2 youth: Dalot and Chong.
  25. Jan 6, 2019
    #25

    Sky1981 Fending off the urge

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    Was dalot youth though? He was young granted but he was bought for a good millions
  26. Jan 6, 2019
    #26

    Pavl3n Full Member

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    My oh my.
    People just love to bash and complain. I couldn't watch the game and only get idea of the performance from match reports.
    It was clear that the midfield had to be given a night off. In 12 days Pogba and Matic played 4 games, Hererra played 3 games and a half. Fred had a total of about 50 min.
    Alright it was disjointed midfield, but these are all squad players now. It's what Ole has in front of him and it's what he has to work with. McTomminay is a squad player and so is Dalot and so is Pereira. Just because two of them came through our ranks they shouldn't be branded youth.
    All three midfielders should've had more minutes under their belt this season. If it wasn't for Mourinho banishing Fred and over relying on Fellaini, then those 3 that played today would've had a better understanding.

    I don't think we should brand flooding youth unsuccessful tactic after a game like this and opt for first team players at all times. There were a lot of conditions and circumstances to take in mind for the selection and performance today.

    If Ole or the next manager follows the philosophy that has been installed over the last 5 games:
    We shouldn't be outworked or outran by any team
    We should always attack and play aggressive football
    We should always go into the game expecting to win

    I am sure next year around fielding a squad players first 11 for a cup game vs low league team will result in such poor performance.

    This was simply a combo of resting players and treating the game as a friendly giving the squad players a run in and a chance for Ole to evaluate them. Shouldn't draw such drastic conclusions after this game particularly.
  27. Jan 6, 2019
    #27

    P-Nut fan of well-known French footballer Fabinho

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    It's simply a matter of squad size. We don't need the Darmians and Mctominays taking up playing time of youngsters who could do just as good a job when called upon. Hopefully we clear out a good few of them in the summer and only sign around 3 players.

    Tuanzabe, Chong, Garner, Gomes, Greenwood. They should be on the fringes of the squad next season with the other 20 places taken by players with a genuine shot at being in our strongest 11.

    At the moment I'd say we've got about 6 or more players that are no where near our starting 11, but due to wages will always be called upon over the kids.

    Valencia, Rojo, Darmian, Fellaini, Mata, McTominay (still a youth himself I suppose)

    You could add others to the list above and they wouldn't look out of place.
  28. Jan 6, 2019
    #28

    Eire Red United Full Member

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    Yeah I agree, better blooding the young lads when Pogba, Matic etc are playing as they’ll provide a more confident platform for the likes of Gomes and Chong to express themselves without having to worry about a calamity behind them.
  29. Jan 6, 2019
    #29

    M Utd Full Member

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    Pretty sure the same summer we let three players leave (Huges, Ince and Kanchelskis) and even then the class of 92 thought replacements would be brought in (as did us fans). Perhaps the club tried but failed to get their targets or did indeed believe they had a squad with those youngsters to challenge. Either way I guessed it worked out pretty well.
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2019
  30. Jan 6, 2019
    #30

    Sandikan aka sex on the beach

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    We had cole as the hughes replacement anyway but yes they must have been confident between Beckham, Butt and Scholes that we were covered for the others.. Although i vaguely remember being after Anderton
  31. Jan 6, 2019
    #31

    M Utd Full Member

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    Yep I think you are right. At least it was in the press and awful lot. I remember Keith Gillespie going the other way in the deal for Cole and at the time was a high rated young right winger and possible replacement for Kanchelskis long term. Clearly Beckham and Ole on quite a few occasions did a fantastic job on the right. At the time though I don't think anyone would have been surprise if Anderton did join.
  32. Jan 6, 2019
    #32

    Zlatattack Full Member

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    Look fans like the manager to take risks with young players. In what should be an easy game, it's a bit of a thrill to see if the youth players are any good.

    If anyone of them had done a Macheda the Caf would be gushing, rather than complaining.
  33. Jan 6, 2019
    #33

    Bola Banned

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    He must not have read much footballing history, given the sucess of the 2nd Matt Busy team in the late 50s. They were both winning and entertaining the land
  34. Jan 6, 2019
    #34

    dove Full Member

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    Agree. Some people just live in a FM world. We have plenty of first team players who lack game time or just came back from injuries (Alexis). The priority should be to get them ready, not randomly throwing 5 youngsters just for the sake of it.
  35. Jan 6, 2019
    #35

    rcoobc Not as crap as eferyone thinks

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    What :lol:
  36. Jan 6, 2019
    #36

    Andy_Cole Full Member

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    I think the issue we had, certainly with Mourinho, was what was the point playing deadwood, clearly not good enough players, again and again, or even players out of position, rather than youth?

    Why play Darmian, Rojo, Jones, and let the likes of Tuanzabe out on loan?

    There needs to be a balance. Also there should be good reward for youth players. The ones who have been outstanding like Greenwood should be given a chance.
  37. Jan 6, 2019
    #37

    Ibrahimorich New Member

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    Not in the sense that we developed him, no. I included him because he's young and inexperienced too.
  38. Jan 6, 2019
    #38

    charlenefan Far less insightful than the other Charley

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    I agree with the OP, take someone like Macheda for example - always looked great in pre-season playing with the first team, scored a couple of really good goals when he came on as a sub in important first team games and yet most of his appearances came when their were wholesale changes made to the XI and thus like yesterday the result is a disjointed performance from all which lowers the stock of everyone involved

    Now the fact Macheda has left and done nothing with his career suggests he was never going to be good enough for us but the point remains the same, to really give youth a chance in an ideal world you want to see them in actual first team games with real consequences riding on them - like how Rashford was introduced (he's the shining example of giving youth a chance going right)

    As the undertone of the OP is obviously Chong's appearance yesterday, because it was so underwhelming in an already poor team his stock has gone from exciting talent we're all itching to see to 'he's no where near ready'. Imagine if Ole had brought him on in one of the league games we've had though, we may have seen the player everyone who watches the reserves has been raving about...
  39. Jan 6, 2019
    #39

    Stobzilla Official Team Perv

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    Chong still is an exciting talent, the Macheda thing was also exacerbated by him being shunted onto the wing when he had no business being there.

    Given the standard that these homegrown players have to be at in order to have a chance of staying, they need to be given every chance to succeed, this includes playing them in their strongest position and not setting them up to fail by putting a square peg in a round hole or by having them come into a team whereby they have no chemistry or match sharpness.
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2019
  40. Jan 6, 2019
    #40

    Crashoutcassius Full Member

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    Some of the comments around andreas and chong being good enough to start now have been hilarious, but we do have a good crop of young players coming through now and I do massively support Ole's drive to play them more.

    LVG played a whole lot and we only really got Rashford and Lingard out of it. But that is the equivalent of Ole giving 7 debuts and Chong being the only one that stays in the first team, still a good return