Discussion in 'Player Performances Forum' started by Bebe, Jul 7, 2012.
Man United fans demanding success shocker!
The problem isn't with demanding success, it's demanding immediate success in literally every game, and throwing the toys out of the pram every time we lose or even look shaky for a 15 minute period in a game, crying every time a striker misses a chance, whining every time we lose the ball in midfield. It's like some fans have forgotten that the players can't be perfect, and sometimes the opposition actually play well.
We've had a squad system that has been successful in the league for 20 years now, there isn't a need to completely throw it out of the window because Sir Alex retired. Cleverley and Welbeck are now at the stage where they are 1st team squad players, but their role in the team is to support our key players- Carrick, Rooney and RvP. They are not expected to perform at their level consistently, just to do a job to support those key players, do the leg work and to chip in whenever possible while they mature and become more prepared to take on more responsibility. It's all part of the squad progression system.
I was more responding to Charlene, and the implication that people who demand short term success might support the wrong club. Which made me laugh given we are probably the club most associated with glory hunting fans.
He had dreadful day at the office yesterday... He has played 30-40 games for us with mixed results. I thought the pressure got to him yesterday. He clearly isnt ready to stake his claim at United yet. But more worrying we still have Ando..
Oh right, sorry, I don't fufil your criteria to support the club... I'll support who I bloody well like thanks.
I'm all for giving youth a chance and i've never said that we are entitled to success. Is aiming to "win things" a bad thing for our young players to aspire to? I'm sure even your precious Tom, bless him, wants to win things. Thing is, he's had a chance and i'm not the only one that hasn't been impressed. My honest opinion is that he'll never make it here. He's a mid-table club player and will end up like Gibson.
Certainly there aren't as many people who are asking for their head. Take Lynk who is generally known as the biggest Welbeck anti-fanboy and still I think he's right more often than not. It only needs Welbeck to play a good game and people will go crazy and compare him with Henry. Even now, a lot of people will say that he's better than Sturridge or Balotelli. Same for Cleverley (with exception here that Welbeck at-least give some times stellar performances).
We all want our academy players to do well, but for some people saying that Welbeck/Cleverley isn't doing that well, haven't progressed or even didn't play good is a blasphemy. I genuinely don't believe that anyone who watched the game yesterday thinks that Cleverley played well, but still we got a lot of people who are saying that. It's madness, really.
Serious question, would you think that anyone here would have asked to sign Cleverley if he wasn't a United player?
Also, 23-24 years old is not entirely young. People give excuses for bad performances Welbeck/Cleverley make like they are Zaha or Powell. This is the fourth year they are playing regularly at EPL and the third year for United.
United sign a midfielder? I enjoy a hypothetical question as much as the next man but you'll end up being sectioned coming out with nonsense like that.
I think Welbeck and Cleverley are quite different cases though. I think the former is progressing at a very reasonable rate and is a very good player to have around, as a third choice striker, and one with a different set of attributes to the others on the books - having him and Chicharito around is particularly good as they are so different. He is at his local club and will be free of that ego that makes dropping him problematic.
It SHOULD be the same with Cleverley but it isnt because we dont have the other options in that position that would help with his footballing education and give us more quality there when needed. Cleverley should be learning off better, more established midfielders, getting games when he earns them and fighting hard for his place. That would be better for the team and better for him in the long run as it would improve him immensely. If Welbeck and Rooney were our only recognised strikers it would be a similar situation, except at least you can get away with playing only one striker.
I doubt any fans would want to sign Cleverley based on previous seasons but we may have signed him as a 'punt' based on his technical ability and game intelligence, because our scouts are better at picking out prospects than the general public are- he's good enough to play a supporting role in our first team in most games, a poor game at Anfield may cause kneejerkers to jerk their knees but sensible people will appreciate that it's not reflective of his overall level and remain patient- even if it might be time to take him out of the firing line it's not time to write him off. Who knows, he may never kick on and may have to leave- but we won't find out unless we give him game time, and he hardly ever lets the team down.
Cleverley is a late developer, most football fans are terrible at judging the potential of any player who is not in the special bracket, particularly if they do not have a physical advantage. He's 24, literally the same age as Herrera who we are trying to sign but he's played 40+ fewer games (and a lot of his games were not in the top flight), he's still a baby experience-wise.
Every player has poor games (we tend to freeze at Anfield anyway), young players tend to have more than experienced ones, but thats why we need to have the players who can come in and take the pressure off them when it's time to. Unfortunately, we're shockingly short in midfield at the moment so there is more pressure on Cleverley than he's probably ready for. Like I said earlier in the thread, people won't appreciate what he does for the team until he has an extended period out of the side and we still have moments where the other team is on top, because that is football- sometimes the other side play well and you don't.
Herrera signing will help Cleverley. I suspect some of you watch every match waiting to pounce on a Cleverley error and rush to redcafe with a loud proclamation of "WE NEED A feckIN MIDFIELDER". This should ease the scapegoating of Cleverley....hopefully anyway
Seriously I don't see that much football intelligence on Cleverley. His positioning is far from the best and he very rarely goes forward. Most of his passes are either to Carrick or to our center backs, hardly something that needs football intelligence.
The performance at Anfield wasn't his only bad performance. He usually gives okay performances without shining. I think that he played particularly well against Chelsea, probably his best game since the start of 11-12 season, but I think he was bad against Swansea. At the moment he is good to be a starter in a club that is outside of top 6, but not at United.
While I think that in teams like Bayern, BVB, Juve, Real and Barca he wouldn't have a chance to be even in the bench, I am happy if we keep him and develop him. But not as a starter. At the moment he isn't as good as to start for a club that aims to win all trophies.
Late boomer? I don't have any idea about this and I doubt that anyone on the caf knows. I think only people who train with him can have a hope to know about that. At the moment, I think is more a wishful thinking.excuse to say that.
Anyway, from the beginning my point was about his fanboys that go batshit crazy if someone dares to say the obvious, that he isn't playing that well. Personally I am happy to keep him for another season or two and to see how things go. But hopefully not as our second best midfielder cause we'll be in deep trouble if that's the case.
anyone remember when people said Carrick only passed the ball sideways and back? He was the previous scapegoat in midfield and he had quite a bit of experience behind him.
Ok, Carrick has a better passing range than Cleverley, while Tom is better at supporting the attack and making himself available to receive the ball higher up the pitch but the point stands.. it's difficult, even for highly talented footballers, to come into our first team and express themselves until they mature.
SAF on Cleverley
Well given that he's been held back at every level of youth football due to his physical size (I think I remember hearing that he was down to training at the club a few nights a week when other boys his age had more face time due to it), the club considered releasing him at 16 because he was too small but gave him a chance I'd say it's pretty safe to say he's a late bloomer.
I think most people agree we need to strengthen in midfield, but there is no need to tear into a lad who's learning his trade and is 'okay' in most games. He's a young player, working hard, playing a supporting role and being forced to play more at the moment than he should because the club has been slack with it's squad management.
Just going to throw it out there that I think the thing which really hinders Cleverley is the shape that we play.
We employ essentially a 4-2-3-1 (call it a 4-5-1 or 4-4-1-1 or whatever, same shit). In this lineup, Cleverley is not technically sound enough nor productive enough in goals/assists to operate in the #10 role behind the striker (especially when we have Rooney and Kagawa), but he isnt a defensive holding midfielder either, which is the role that the "2" tend to play in this 4-2-3-1.
The system which would suit Toms natural game would be that of a 4-3-3, whether you have a single holding midfielder playing behind two central midfielders, and then the front three playing well ahead. In this role he has the freedom to get forward and exploit the space left behind the 3 attackers and thread passes through, without being under pressure to be the one to deliver, but he is also not so defensively liable and can therefore afford to venture forward.
In an England midfield of say Carrick sitting behind Wilshere and Cleverley, he would thrive.
Problem though is what does clev do that would make a team want to drop someone else or move someone else out of position to get the best out if him? Clev can be a good player but I can't see him ever being a player you would design your system around to accommodate.
Indeed and im not suggesting that we do. Simply that its a possible explanation for his apparant underperformances and failure to live up to some of the potential (although I still think he is/will be a good player).
Its a tough one for him as I cant see him becoming an influential player for us without substantially adapting his game, but nor do I imagine him realstically leaving anytime soon.
Could be, personally I think if you have to play a certain way to look good then there's a problem in your game. I mean even in our system it's not like Rooney is so far away that clev can't play off him or anything. It's like when some argue that he doesn't look as good because ando isn't there it carrick can't do a certain style. If you're a good player you can play with a variety of players and still do your game. I mean taking carrick, sure he's had two great seasons in a row but even before that but for one dip in form he been a very effective player for us, playing with a huge amount f partners, many of whom have needed lots f protection from him.
In fact if anything clev is in the best position of any if our midfielders in the past few years to really show what he can do because he actually has a partner in his prime and playing like it, something we've had rarely over the past 6-7 years.
We need at least 4 cm players available for all the games we have to play during a season. We still havent signed anyone who pushes Tom out of the main 4 places. Even if he isnt a starter he is still going to be an important part of our squad.
The thing that hinders Cleverley is Cleverley, cause he's not really good enough at any one particular facet of football in order to be anything more than a normal, solid midfielder.
Oh yeah and that's fine, he's certainly a good option to have, I just don't think he's ready for the first eleven. Hopefully this will be a challenge for him now and spur him to up his game like fletcher did following Hargreaves and ando arriving.
That's pretty much it in a nutshell, he's a tidy little player who is useful over a long season, but his future is as a squad player rather than regular starter.
He can't exactly put on 15kg of hench and grow 6 inches can he though? If he wants to play in that deeper role with Carrick then it's utterly pointless him trying to play a combat role. He's not big enough or solid enough.
When he broke onto the scene in a few friendlies before the loan move to Wigan he was playing as a second striker come AM and he was a lot better there. Able to use his quick touch passing and smart movement where it matters in free positions of threat. This deeper role where he gets nowhere near the goalmouth is totally pointless for a player with his locker imo.
I am not sure what more he can do in the eyes of the fans other than give 100% all the time and if it's not enough, cop the flack. His skillset is not that of a deeper midfielder and especially alongside a player like Carrick.
Yep hit the nail on the head. He was at his best at the start of 11/12 season when he was playing a far more freer role which is his natural game imo. Him sitting back and just retaining possession and just being neat and tidy isn't doing him justice. He was far more valuable to us when he was using that slick one touch passing and smart movement to create opportunities and set up the play. We aren't seeing that from him in a deeper role. I'd personally like to see us return to that 11/12 formation but with Carrick or Fellaini at the base protecting the back four. I think it was the right idea from Fergie just needed someone to play behind Cleverley and Anderson so as to not leave the defence hopelessly exposed like it was. I don't see why that couldn't work. Plus Cleverley has only had one full season at United, his first season doesn't really count. He has a lot more to offer.
Obviously he'll be behind Rooney and Kagawa when they are both fit but I feel that it is where he will be more comfortable.
But the problem is that he doesn't have the skillset to be a good a/m. He's far too safe a player. The majority of time I see him his thought is to keep the ball moving, which is fine but the problem is, is that that often ends up with him passing it sideways and can actually end up wasting a good opportunity, that happened a few times against Chelsea in the first half. I find him reluctant to get the ball and do something facing towards the opposition goal. He doesn't carry the ball particularly well, I've not seen him get past people, if he's in a corner he's gonna need help to get out and I don't see him as an incisive passer.
He's a neat player with a good first touch in fairness but personally I think he's stuck between neither being an a/m or a c/m. He doesn't seem to influence from deep much and often ends up drifting which causes issues defensively, but he's not so good that you would let him push up and be an attacking player unless you had a lot of injuries.
I think he's gonna have to work on his impact from a deeper role and it really shouldn't matter if it's next to a player "like Carrick". Carrick has shone playing with Clev, Scholes, Fletcher, Ando, Giggs and Jones. Your partner has some impact on you, but it shouldn't be enough for you not to be able to impose yourself on a game. If it is then that's a problem that you have. In fact tbh I would say that's Clevs biggest problem. If the attacking players are playing well then he fits in nicely, doesn't do anything stupid and will help them get out of a tight spot and then give it back to them to actually do something with it. But when they're not playing well he doesn't seem to have it in him to do something himself at least not often enough yet.
Yeah, What Ash said!
Do you mean second striker? Or an AM with no goal threat. Because he's not played either of those roles consistently at a first team level since those few friendlies before the loan move. Even at Wigan he played mostly as a left sided winger/wing forward (with the odd appearance here and there).
He just doesn't have the physical ability to play in that deeper role as the tackling player. These first few games and the odd game last season showed that. Even in the first few games of last season when Carrick was having a mare people were slating Cleverley for some reason and to me it was apparent then that he doesn't flourish when he has such a static player in Carrick beside him. Don't get me wrong it's great experience for him and any time is good time for him to develop but it's a physicality problem it has nothing to do with his technical ability. He can pass competently enough, move smartly enough and pull strings if he needs to. This season he's not got within seeing distance of goal. He's basically been stuck hassling so deep that when he does look for a quick pass and move option he usually doesn't get the ball back from Carrick because he's not a similar player.
The reason he did so well with Anderson was that extra mobility in beside him. A genuine on the ball runner who complemented the fact that he was a quick pass and move player.
I couldn't really make sense of the bolded part to be honest. His problem can't really be himself if he's not playing in a comfortable position due to his physical ability and not his technical one. He just simply and probably never has been a deeper playing midfielder. He's more of a second striker or attacking midfield playmaker. The problem at the moment is that we don't have a genuine number 10 to play there. We've used Welbeck and Giggs as floating players and when we had Rooney against Chelsea he never got forward at all because of the awareness to make sure we snuffed the counter attack. That to me tells met hat we have a pretty smart and disciplined midfielder. Carrick is not known to maraud forward and take people on so instantly that is an incompatible partner to the game that Cleverley plays. Much like when Anderson plays with Carrick we look horrible because Ando has absolutely no positional discipline at all and is all over the shop carrying the ball and going berzerk every which way. If we allowed Cleverley to play further forward in his more natural position behind a front striker or pulling the strings in front of the deeper midfielders then we will see his impact improve. Which is why I hope that if Rooney and Kagawa are out he gets that chance. Moyes might opt for the safe option of playing a different style I am not sure.
I definitely think Cleverley is getting a bit of the raw end of the stick as far as this thread goes. Some people saying that he's not going to make it and that he's pointless etc etc. It's fecking harsh, the lad is clearly a talent and has the ability to play further forward with a platform. A compatible game combination for Carrick is something we've lacked since Fletcher was injured and if you go back to 2007/08 and that period of a couple of years with Hargreaves and then Fletcher playing roles beside Carrick we had some very successful periods there. Since the unfortunate injury to Fletcher our squad has lacked exactly that type of fast closer, tireless harrier and unafraid tackler and it has shown most definitely. In Carrick's numbers and in the style that we've played and being very open on the counter.
He's played in the hole for England and done ok, but looked clearly below the level to do that role for a good team and he didn't look able to do much himself. I certainly got the impression from people I watched game etc that they couldn't really see what Clev was bringing. Kept it well but as I've said before that's the minimum England and certainly United should be expecting from their players.
But in general my point is that I can't see what he would offer in that position. He doesn't carry the ball particularly well, doesn't seem an incisive passer, hasn't shown himself to be a goal threat and clearly isn't a physical impact player. As I said he's got a good touch and he'll help keep the ball but that's not enough. Pretty good cross though tbf.
I'm not expecting him to be a deep laying enforcer but he needs to do more from deep. The majority of games what is he really doing? Carrick does more defensive work and Carrick is clearly the more probing passer. It's not a balanced partnership. I'm not saying it's beyond Cleveley to be able to influence my point is that he's not right now.
As I said I don't like the argument that he can only play well next to someone like Ando. That was my point that you highlighted. Carrick has played with a large range of partners, with very different styles, almost all of them needing Carrick to cover them. Yet he's managed to either be very effective or in the past 2 seasons one of our best players next to any of them. Plus personally I think Carrick can do that style but the problem is that we don't always want to approach games in that way, Clev needs to be able to express himself in different match approaches.
Clev is in a rare position atm. He has had and still has in Carrick a midfielder partner in his prime. He's got someone to share the burden, who can cover him etc and so he should be able to express himself. Again I don't see him doing that enough. Hopefully with Fellaini the extra competition will push him on.
I don't dislike Clev but at the same time I don't think he's good enough yet to be a starter for us. As I've said he's need to be able to influence more from a deeper role or he needs to balance his game more such that he provides good defensive protection to make up for his lack of attacking contribution. I personally can't see at all how he will ever be good enough to be a number 10 for a good club. He's got nothing to his game to suggest he would do there. You've mentioned about Kagawa or Rooney being out and him playing there but I would much rather either play two strikers or move RVP deeper to cover that before I put Clev there if the opposition were decent.
No one knows what Moyes has in mind. However there are various hints around to be able to bridge the dots together. We tried to sign 2-3 playmakers (Herrera, Fabregas, Thiago) + we signed Fellaini who is NOT a playmaker. That suggest that Moyes would want a 3 men CM. In my opinion both Clev and Anderson have 3 or 7 months time to convince Moyes that they are the players United need in that role. If they fail then I believe that one would end up leaving and the other will end up on the bench. By the looks of it Ando is favorite for the former and Clev would be favorite for the latter.
But that is same formation he plays in with Carrick in the side now.
tbh, Clev reminds me of Carrick when he first came to the club, he was pretty ordinary playing alongside Scholes and was the master of P2P (pass to Paul). He'll develop into a very good player imo will Tom, but he needs experience to do that. To settle his nerves and be used to the first team squad, to be able to express himself more during a match.
Carrick when signed was several levels ahead of what Tom Cleverley is now. It's barely comparable. He's always had so much more to his game compared to Tom, especially defensively.
Odd point of view, not discrediting your opinion but I'm pretty astounded by it.
People rate Carrick's last 18 months as the best of his United career, but I was fascinated by what he did to the team and how his inclusion gelled so much together in 2006. I don't think Cleverley is and will ever be close to Carrick but remains a fantastic player to have in the squad because he can play various roles and positions fairly comfortably without being spectacular.
I wonder if Tom puts in the extra hours in training as he did when he was younger. He just needs to gain more confidence in himself to play more forward passes. He needs to work on his shooting as well, I remember he was scoring quite a few goals 4 years ago but he's lost his composure when shooting.
I think playing him in a 3 with Carrick and Fellaini will suit him more. Want him playing further up the pitch.
What we saw from Cleverley a few weeks ago is that he can play that Carrick role, maybe just beside Carrick or maybe beside Fellaini because unlike Anderson, Fellaini will make quite a few tackles and help him out. Thats one thing he can do.
He can also play the general central midfield role, which he did last season. Win the ball a few times, pass the ball about and linkup with wingers/attackers. He can do that, especially with Welbeck in the team as the two have a good understanding.
And when he plays we're generally better because he moves the ball at a good tempo, sees a pass early and it usually gets to its target.
The only problem with him being a really good player in either of those 2 roles is... He's incredibly inconsistant. Or consistantly not completely convincing with the odd game where he's really good in those roles. You decide.
I'm not denying this is the case but as I recall when Carrick was signed nobody was overwhelmed. In fact the major concern a lot of people had was that we sold Ruud and didn't buy a striker.
Over the past few days lots of people have said this reminds me of when we signed Carrick and others have immediately shot back that it's nothing like that. Really? Cos I remember the summer of 2006 very differently. Nobody thought Carrick was worth £18 million, lots of people were concerned Chelsea had got Ballack (and Sheva lol) and nobody knew quite how Schokes would come back or how Rooney-Ronaldo would function.
There was no fanfare attached to the signing of Carrick, there was a lot of grumbling we'd been ripped off and up until the Rona game a lot of people saw Carrick as an obvious upgrade on Smudge in midfield but nothing great. Loads were delighted when we signed Hargreaves and prophesied Carrick's end.
Lots of revisionism going on here to talk down Clev. Really it's only been on the last year or so that Carrick has truly won over the crowd. Plenty of groans about him even in 2010/11.
As for Cleverely he's not likely to become the next Xavi but I can see him getting to Artera level in a few years and I'd be delighted with that. Like most players he'll work his way to the top not get there on natural talent but by time he hits 28/29 he'll be one of the most solid centre midfielders in thx league.
If you put Kagawa and/or Nani in the team there's the potential for some nice football. But Cleverley will have to step his game up to justify getting into that team.
The signing of Fellaini might just be the wake-up call Cleverly needs. He'll have no choice but to step up his game and we'll finally see if he has what it takes to do so now.
Playing in a 3 mean means playing in Rooneys/Kagawa and possibly Welbeck's position. I cannot see it happening.
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