Transfers - a comparison

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Pogue Mahone, Aug 8, 2018.

  1. Aug 8, 2018
    #1

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    Quiet morning at work (what's new!) so I've been doing some digging to see how United have performed in the transfer market since Fergie retired, compared to our rivals.

    First of all, I looked at all the players that cost £10m+ (to try and filter out youth signings, "punts" etc. and focus on players signed for the first team) and allocated them into "success", "flops" and "partial success". Obviously, this is mainly my own opinion but I've tried to be fair. To be a success players need to be first team regulars and viewed by neutrals as being good players. "Partial success" could be useful squad players that won't start every game but generally perform well when picked. Flops are players that either aren't getting games or do get games and get viewed as neutrals as being a bit crap.

    Caveat: This is obviously harsh on "yong and lernin" players or players only signed very recently. Obviously, a bunch of "flops" could end up promoted out of that category. but I can't use a crystal ball so am judging on what has happened up until right now only.

    MUFC
    Fellaini - Partial Success (Flop?)
    Mata - Partial Success
    Di Maria - Flop
    Shaw - Flop
    Hererra - Partial Success
    Rojo - Flop
    Blind - Partial Success
    Martial - Partial Success
    Schneiderlin - Flop
    Depay - Flop
    Schweinsteiger - Flop
    Darmian - Flop
    Pogba - Success (?)
    Ibrahimovic - Success
    Mkhitaryan - Flop
    Lukaku - Success
    Matic - Success
    Lindelof - Flop
    Sanchez - Flop

    MCFC
    Fernandinho - Success
    Jovetic - Flop
    Negredo - Flop
    Navas - Flop
    Bony - Flop
    Mangala - Flop
    Fernando - Flop
    Sagna - Success
    De Bruyne - Success
    Delph - Flop
    Sterling - Success
    Ottamendi - Success
    Stones - Partial Success
    Sane - Success
    Jesus - Partial Success
    Gundogan - Partial Success
    Nolito - Flop
    Bravo - Flop
    Laporte - Flop (?)
    Mendy - Success
    Walker - Success
    Silva - Flop (?)
    Ederson - Success
    Danilo - Flop
    Luiz - Flop

    AFC
    Ozil - Success
    Sanchez - Success
    Chambers - Flop
    Debuchy - Flop
    Paulista - Flop
    Welbeck - Flop
    Cech - Partial Success
    Elneny - Flop
    Xhaka - Flop
    Mustafi - Flop
    Perez - Flop
    Aubameyang - Success
    Lacazette - Flop
    Mkhitaryan - Flop (?)


    LFC
    Sakho - Flop
    Lovren - Partial Success
    Markovic - Flop
    Origi - Flop
    Can - Partial Success
    Moreno - Flop
    Balotelli - Flop
    Benteke - Flop
    Firmino - Success
    Clyne - Success
    Milner - Success
    Mane - Success
    Wijnaldum - Success
    Matip - Flop
    Van Dijk - Success
    Salah - Success
    Oxlade-Chamberlain - Success

    THFC
    Soldado - Flop
    Lamela - Partial Success
    Paulinho - Flop
    Eriksen - Success
    Son - Success
    Alderweireld - Success
    N'Jie - Flop
    Sissoko - Flop
    Wanyama - Success
    Sanchez - Success
    Janssen - Flop
    Llorente - Flop
    Foyth- Flop
    Moura - Flop
    Aurier - Partial Success

    CFC
    Willian - Success
    Matic - Success
    Salah - Flop
    Zouma - Flop
    Schurrle - Flop
    Eto'o - Flop
    Costa - Success
    Fabregas - Success
    Luis - Flop
    Remy - Flop
    Cuadrado - Flop
    Pedro - Partial Success
    Batshuayi - Flop
    Kante - Success
    Luiz - Partial Success
    Morata - Flop
    Bakayoko - Flop
    Drinkwater - Flop
    Zappacosta - Partial Success
    Rudiger - Flop (?)
    Emerson - Flop
    Alonso - Success
    Giroud - Flop
    Barkley - Flop

    I hereby introduce my patented "Flops Ratio" (S:PS:F) for each club in the top six.

    MCFC = 9:3:13
    MUFC = 4:5:10
    THFC = 5:2:8
    LFC = 8:2:7
    CFC = 6:3:14
    AFC = 3:1:10

    I then got interested in the absolute number of signings (for any fee, no matter how small) of all the clubs over that same period of time. Which tots up as follows:

    MCFC = 43
    MUFC = 23
    THFC = 29
    LFC = 35
    CFC = 43
    AFC = 23

    Now my take on all of the above is that the two "managerial dynasty" clubs (MUFC and AFC )have a very different approach to transfers to the others. They make much fewer signings and (certainly in recent years) seem to have a pretty crappy record of unearthing any gems despite this supposedly more targeted approach (5th and 6th lowest number of "Success" signings with 3rd and 4th highest number of flops). So maybe Moyesy was onto something when all those rumours came out how horrified he was at the state of our scouting network and the general transfer strategy of the club?

    I guess Tottenham are a bit of an outlier but they're broke. Which muddies the waters a bit.

    Discuss.
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2018
  2. Aug 8, 2018
    #2

    Raw Full Member

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    I foresee a lot of argument over that flop or not list.
  3. Aug 8, 2018
    #3

    AltiUn likes playing with swords after fantasies

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    Bit early to be calling Sanchez a flop, he's only been here since January, jury's out till the end of next season.
  4. Aug 8, 2018
    #4

    Bastian Full Member

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    Interesting thread. Hadn't realised how few players we've signed compared to City or Chelsea given we've supposedly been doing a major rebuild. I'd say both Sanchez and Lindelof are too early to call flops. Would expect them both to qualify for partial success this season. With Pogba, I'd classify him as a partial success. I'd also classify Rudiger as partial success.

    So since SAF retired we've signed 20 fewer players than City and they were already on their way to build a team for Pep. That's frightening.
  5. Aug 8, 2018
    #5

    DownRiver New Member

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    If this tweet is true than lol
  6. Aug 8, 2018
    #6

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    :lol: Yeah. Think it’s a bit of a red herring anyway. For me it’s the absolute number comparison that’s most interesting. Can’t be arsed looking at outgoings but we’re probably very low on that too. We seem to be incredibly unwieldy compared to the other clubs overall. Transfer paralysis.
  7. Aug 8, 2018
    #7

    Son Of Sam New Member

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    I am not surprised United have signed the fewest number of players since SAF retired. I bet if we compare the number of players signed in this period to the number of sponsors signed, the sponsors would win.

    The board & Ed Woodward have a lot to answer for this abomination. Man Utd have become penny-pinchers in spite of the fact that they make the most money in the top 6. It is quite embarrassing.
  8. Aug 8, 2018
    #8

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    See caveat.
  9. Aug 8, 2018
    #9

    BluesJr Full Member

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    This is worrying to be honest.
  10. Aug 8, 2018
    #10

    IrishRedDevil Full Member

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    Imagine being able to call Sanchez and flop and Ox a success. Do we just ignore the extremely poor start by Ox and the fact he is now out for a year injured?

    Lovren a success? :lol: Aye successfully bad.
  11. Aug 8, 2018
    #11

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    Jaysus. Another similarity with Arsenal?!
  12. Aug 8, 2018
    #12

    AltiUn likes playing with swords after fantasies

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    Seems we went for a quality over quantity approach but our scouting for the players was pretty rubbish and we've ended up with a fair amount of average players. There's some players on that list that in hindsight have no business playing for United at all, barring one or two they've all been bought as expected first teamers, we really need a new approach.
  13. Aug 8, 2018
    #13

    Bestietom Full Member

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    We are falling further behind the big boys.
  14. Aug 8, 2018
    #14

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    See caveat.
  15. Aug 8, 2018
    #15

    Bastian Full Member

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    That's beyond depressing.
  16. Aug 8, 2018
    #16

    Klopper76 "Did you see Fabinho against Red Star & Cardiff?"

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    He's probably a mix. His first season was terrible and he's had some awful games under Klopp, but he's also had some very strong runs in our back line as well.

    He's closer to a flop than Matip is though.
  17. Aug 8, 2018
    #17

    OnlyTwoDaSilvas Gullible

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    Harsh on Delph. Solid utility player, and for only £8m. Has had 2 good seasons out of 3.
  18. Aug 8, 2018
    #18

    noodlehair "It's like..."

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    I don't think we have a very targeted approach compared to others. There's been instances where it's questionable whether the manager even had a say in the signing (Mata, Di Maria, Falcao, etc.) let alone whether any backround research took place.

    I also don't think stability is a bad thing, but it doesn't really work when you're changing your manager every two years for someone else who has a completely different style of play and management.
  19. Aug 8, 2018
    #19

    Hammondo New Member

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    Wow your decisions on flop or success are bonkers to me.
  20. Aug 8, 2018
    #20

    FootyGirl88

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    It's true look at the signings we made when we weren't it the top 4.

    Di Maria
    Falaco
    Pogba
    Schweinsteiger
    Ibrahimovic

    Once in the top 4

    Lukaku
    Matic
    Lindelof
    Sanchez

    I'm sorry but it's not the same type of quality.
  21. Aug 8, 2018
    #21

    Wumminator The Special One!

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    Where is Bailly
  22. Aug 8, 2018
    #22

    amolbhatia50k Sneaky bum time

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    Conveniently excluded the season we won the Europa league and proceeded to spend heavily under Mourinho (last summer) and the fact that we signed Sanchez in huge wages in the following winter.

    And I reckon the summer we had CL footy under LVG we spent loads too. It's just that the ADM sale probably offset some of it.

    But why bother with that when people will just lap it all up?
  23. Aug 8, 2018
    #23

    Son Of Sam New Member

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    Pogue, you need to do some editing. It seems Eric Bailly is missing from your list.
  24. Aug 8, 2018
    #24

    Son Of Sam New Member

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    When did pundits start including wages in transfer fees? Sanchez was an exchange with Mkhitaryan. His wages have no part in this discourse. Let’s stay focused, please.
  25. Aug 8, 2018
    #25

    IrishRedDevil Full Member

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    'Flop' post - because I said so.

    Stop trying to talk sense.
  26. Aug 8, 2018
    #26

    flappyjay Full Member

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    Look at the money spent not the number of players bought.
  27. Aug 8, 2018
    #27

    RedorDead21 Full Member

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    In terms of what we finished 2nd?
  28. Aug 8, 2018
    #28

    Son Of Sam New Member

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    I don’t care about the money spent. United do not fix the transfer fees - the fact that City have almost doubled the number of players United have bought is an ominous sign that this board of ours isn’t really interested in winning the PL.
  29. Aug 8, 2018
    #29

    meamth Full Member

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    Some of the posters here might be skimming the caveat part. :lol:
  30. Aug 8, 2018
    #30

    Momochiru Full Member

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    Disagree regarding these, I think there is too much emphasis on the recent performances:

    Hererra - Partial Success
    Blind - Flop
    Martial - Partial Success
    Lindelof - Flop
    Sanchez - Flop

    Personally I think they should all be upgraded one level. Hererra was a player of the season a year ago, that should count as a Success. Blind was very important player under LVG, should be Partial Success. Martial's contribution is always pretty good, the last disagreements with Mourinho shouldn't change the fact that he has been a Success. Lindelof and Sanchez had a rough start, but have been improving, should be Partial Success.
  31. Aug 8, 2018
    #31

    EyeInTheSky Full Member

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    I have seen this a few times but I would suggest that if a team does well enough to finish high up then it would be logical to assume that they have good enough players and would not just change them for the sake of it. "Thanks for winning the league, but change waits for no man so feck off".
  32. Aug 8, 2018
    #32

    Bastian Full Member

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    Like Keano bemoaned, we've often failed to capitalise from a position of strength. Which would be a show of true ambition.
  33. Aug 8, 2018
    #33

    amolbhatia50k Sneaky bum time

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    It's a signing. Who is paid huge wages. I'm counting it. That's part of the outlay.
  34. Aug 8, 2018
    #34

    EyeInTheSky Full Member

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    No, I think that with SAF and the way the league was and our lack of competition in the Market we did not need to. We were always dominant or competing. It is up for debate how strong our position was after SAF last season but it should not have been as bad as it was regardless. The Moyes appointment will be debated for all eternity whether it really happneed or if it was an urban myth.
  35. Aug 8, 2018
    #35

    flappyjay Full Member

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    It's easy to look in hindsight and criticize. The season we qualified under LVG we proceeded to buy the schmifield, darmian, Martial and Memphis. I remember everyone was happy with what went down that year. We also came to later find out that we had 100m+ for Muller and Neymar turned down. If bayern officials and Neymars pops weren't lying.

    Fast forward to last year after we qualified, Zlatan was out for months a 75m striker was bought along with one of the three best dm's in the league, and lindelof whilst we failed to land Perisic . Lets not pretend the board hasn't backed the manager's post Sir Alex. Totally blame them for everything else before that though. Sir Alex would have left a world class team if he had funds in his last three years
  36. Aug 8, 2018
    #36

    flappyjay Full Member

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    My point was by looking and the number of players you ignore the fact that some teams can spend similar to us in the same window but go for quantity over quality. Like the years spurs sold Bale and the year Liverpool sold Suarez. Mainly we try to buy to strengthen the first 11 hence why 3-5 signings every summer and those types of signings tend to be expensive
  37. Aug 8, 2018
    #37

    Bastian Full Member

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    In Keano's time this had more to do with not really going all out for European domination. But I think this has always been the case. We've rarely shown serious ambition from the position of strength, only from a position of stagnation or weakness.
  38. Aug 8, 2018
    #38

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    I'll add him so. What category does he get? Partial success?
  39. Aug 8, 2018
    #39

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    Courtesy of @ErranMorad

    As you can see, our issue hasn't been not spending enough money. It's been spending it really badly.
  40. Aug 8, 2018
    #40

    EyeInTheSky Full Member

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    I think with winning the CL and making 3 Finals in quick succession (Winners 2008, Final 2009, final 2010) they probably thought we needed minimal investment. RM and Barca with BM to a lesser extent continue to pump large sums in regardless over the same period at least.