Trophies.....

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by Gillespie, May 17, 2012.

  1. May 17, 2012
    #1

    Gillespie Banned

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    .....or lack of them.

    Much is made of the fact that Arsenal haven't won a trophy since 2005. The implication being that winning trophies, ANY trophy is the only measure of success.

    Well, I disagree. (yeah, I would, wouldn't I, some of you will say, but hear me out)

    The only things that really matter and which motivates top players to come to a club are being competitive in challenging for the Premiership Title and playing Champions League football.

    This situation has arisen because:

    a) The sheer money available in staying in the Premier League is more important than anything else. Ask Birmingham City fans would they pass up the League Cup for avoiding relegation, I'd think most would prefer the latter.

    b) Which is why Premier league teams will often field weaken teams even in the once revered FA Cup.

    c) The top teams want Champions League football. If they fail to qualify, then there is a risk they will lose key players and fail to attract the top players not to mention the loss of £25 million or so in revenue. Will Modric and Bale stay at Spurs if Chelsea win against Bayern? I suspect a big chance they could be lured away. Would King Kenny have been sacked if Liverpool had finished 3rd and trophless instead of 8th? I doubt it.

    d) Ever since the FA condoned Utd's absence in the FA Cup to play instead in some inconsequential tournament, the FA Cup has lost its glamour not helped by this season's decision to end its previous role as the end of season curtain coming down but also in changing the kick off time.

    e) The Europa League is seen as a poor substitute that no one really wants to compete in because of the Thursday/Sunday timings. Spurs took it so seriously they fielded a weakened team in what seemed a brazen attempt to go out at the earliest opportunity.

    f) The indifference of foreign players to the importance of the FA Cup in particular is now matched by their home grown counterparts.

    So, bottom line. All that really counts when it comes to the so called top teams is challenging for the Title and failing that, qualification for the Champions league.

    Everything else is of secondary importance, the domestic cups are now just mere baubles. Nice to win and give a day out for the fans but not at the expense of failing to get Champions League football or of a lower team, not at the expense of losing premiership status.

    All I care about is making sure we have the best chance of winning the title next year and failing that make sure its our 16th year in the Champions' League.
  2. May 17, 2012
    #2

    Plan M Banned

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    But in all seriousness, everyone knows that players just want to challenge for league titles and to play in the best club competition in the world.

    Cup wins are just icing on the cake these days. I personally hate this attitude. I've got a mate who slags off the cups every season - I want United winning as much possible, obviously. But (if I was manager of a 'big' club) would I play my kids in the Carling Cup? Yes, I would.
  3. May 17, 2012
    #3

    Vidic's Head Full Member

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    Win the league cup or come second in the Premiership?
  4. May 17, 2012
    #4

    Plan M Banned

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    You forgot to add "Don't finish in the Champions League spots and win league cup OR finish second in the league".

    It's a no brainer for me - Europe every time. The bigger clubs need the money and CL football to be able to attact the top names these days and to build talented squads.

    Look at Liverpool - even with their prestigous history they were only able to attract the Downings and Charlie Adam's of this world last summer.
  5. May 17, 2012
    #5

    cesc's_mullet Get a haircut Hippy!

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    ^

    I agree. Not that I hate the attitude as it's the pragmatic and sensible approach.
  6. May 17, 2012
    #6

    Guy Incognito Full Member

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    Part of Arsenal's problem is the manager only sets out to win the Premier League or Champions League. And they don't look like winning neither of them based on the evidence of the last few seasons.
  7. May 17, 2012
    #7

    Vidic's Head Full Member

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    I stand corrected. At least we can show to the world that we were there or thereabouts, rather than "languishing in mid-table mediocrity". Next season we challenge on all fronts again.
    It used to be called the milk cup...
  8. May 17, 2012
    #8

    anver Shart stop

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    And that too for quite an amount of dosh.
  9. May 17, 2012
    #9

    Hectic Moderator

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    I'm not really sure what point you are making here, most of that is common sense, the rest of it is out of you not having a trophy for 7 years.

    I'd like to see how you would have responded to this idea that trophies mean basically nothing, about 10 years ago, when you were actually winning things.

    And of course a high placement in the league, or qualification into the Champions League aren't the only things that will attract or appeal to top players. You think a club that has been winning trophies substantially, compared to one that hasn't won anything in the same period, will have zero affect on his decision?
  10. May 17, 2012
    #10

    africanspur Full Member

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    What a sad state of affairs.
  11. May 17, 2012
    #11

    Vidic_In_Moscow Full Member

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    Winning a trophy is as fickle as how much money you have, for most clubs winning a trophy is out of the question, it simply isn't feasible to compete with so much money, even with our self grown wealth, let alone the artificial finances of Chelsea and Manchester City. Winning a trophy is not really always something to be totally proud of, and on the flipside, not winning any trophies should not be looked down upon at all, it's why I have so much respect for Arsenal, I feel sorry for Wenger as the short-sighted media and fans only talk about trophies, and not the reality he is working in.

    If it was a totally fair playing field with salary/transfer caps, revenue sharing, FFP.. then winning a trophy would be a splendid achievement year on year, but to be honest it would make it a lot harder for us, having more people being able to compete with us as opposed to our currently elevated financial position, albeit quite far behind Chelsea and miles behind City, but despite this it'd be far better for the game in general.
  12. May 17, 2012
    #12

    africanspur Full Member

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    How is winning a trophy not always something to be proud of?
  13. May 17, 2012
    #13

    B20 Giggsy! Giggsy! Giggsy!

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    For the fans, football is fundamentally about enjoying the games being played on a weekly basis and that doesn't even always revolve around winning the game. Fans like Cal? whose interest in football is measured only by the trophy cabinet are complete alienated from the roots of football support and the reality that the fans of the vast majority of football clubs around the world live in.

    Being able to contest trophies is a great privilege and certainly something clubs should do all in their power to achieve if they can. But there is a difference to what clubs and fans should think.

    For the clubs, contesting trophies is their duty. For the fans, it is a privilege. Lot of fans seem to think it is their right though.
  14. May 17, 2012
    #14

    Vidic_In_Moscow Full Member

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    Wrong choice of words perhaps, I mean it is not always a sign of great success or a well run club. The 'achievement' is not really the same if you spend one billion pounds on a team, it's cheapened, at least in my opinion.

    For example I see Arsenal finishing 3rd a much bigger 'achievement' than City winning the league, all things considered. I hate to always use Arsenal as an example but they really are run in an exemplary way.
  15. May 17, 2012
    #15

    africanspur Full Member

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    Fair enough.
  16. May 17, 2012
    #16

    Sewelly The Geordie Full Member

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    It's a good post and the fundamentals of your point are correct.

    But it is a sorry situation that trophies have lost a lot of their value. I'd still kill for one and I certainly hope we don't treat the Europa League with contempt next season.
  17. May 17, 2012
    #17

    Neo_Mufc Full Member

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    If you won some smaller trophies it might instill some confidence in a team.

    Your'e going for the holy grail every year but have no experience in winning.
  18. May 17, 2012
    #18

    FlawlessThaw most 'know it all' poster

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    This is pretty much it. We have had a bit of success in recent years since Abramovich took over Chelsea and the first bits of success the likes of Ronaldo, Rooney, Vidic and Evra got were in the League Cup (2nd trophy for Ronaldo). It definitely helps unite a team together.

    Arsenal talk a big game every year but have barely challenged in the league in the past 8 years. It seems as though the club internally is happy with making sure of getting a CL spot secure and that's it.
  19. May 17, 2012
    #19

    rcoobc Not as crap as eferyone thinks

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    This.

    Not only is coming 4th more valuable than winning the FA Cup these days, we all know it is and have come to accept it.
  20. May 17, 2012
    #20

    Liam147 On Probation

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    Adrian Durham seems to make this point every time he fancies a swipe at Arsenal. It depends on your circumstance. Would I take going next season trophyless for Champions League football? Definitely. After 30 years trophyless would I? God no, you want to break your duck.
  21. May 17, 2012
    #21

    Cheesy Full Member

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    You've made a long post but most of it is just stating the obvious to be honest...
  22. May 17, 2012
    #22

    Mockney Not the only poster to be named Poster of the Year

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    To be fair, the League Cup has never really been a huge trophy for the big clubs. It hasn't just become devalued by modern football. It was never massive to begin with. It was founded in the 60s and has always been FA Cup - lite. The FA has been devalued though, as I remember winning that used to be a massive deal. League & FA Cup winners were the two things that mattered. Now I'd agree that most managers value getting in the top 4 as a bigger objective.

    Shame, cos I'd love to win the FA Cup again. But I think our lack of success in it recently will be good for our excitement at the prospect of winning it again. Fergie never plays the kids when we get a PL side in it, so I think he takes it seriously. We've just had a shite run of fixtures/luck of late.
  23. May 17, 2012
    #23

    Ramshock Full Member

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    This thread will be bumped big time if/when arsenal ever win another trophy
  24. May 17, 2012
    #24

    Neo_Mufc Full Member

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    http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/apr/09/thomas-vermaelen-arsenal-premier-league

    Arsenal isn't a club in crisis, a few small steps could fix their problems. They need to reinforce the defense and some other key positions, it's a big reason why most of it's big players have walked away in the last few years. Why not go all out to win the Carling Cup/Fa Cup, it's not the greatest competition but it will give the team the fans and the club something to shout about and it's valuable experience.

    Stop with this qualifying for the CL is like winning the Fa Cup bollocks. Maybe for the accountants it might be.

    The problem with the above is Liverpool thought they'd do it how we did, by winning a trophy and hoping it would have a positive effect on the team in the league. The problem they have is they don't have a team strong enough to fight for 4th let alone win the league.
  25. May 17, 2012
    #25

    B20 Giggsy! Giggsy! Giggsy!

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    I don't know... I'd take an FA Cup over CL qualification. Once. I'd rather have CL qualification right now because it is getting harder to get by missing out so many seasons and we need it back.

    Winning the league cup this year didn't mean much to me. It felt a bit hollow, like an attempt to paper over the cracks after trouncing some lower league opponents. I thoroughly enjoyed winning it in 01 and 03 though. 03 not in the least because we beat your lot. It's different to beating Cardiff in the final. And I imagine if we were comfortable in the top 4 this year, winning the league Cup would have been more fun too.
  26. May 17, 2012
    #26

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    The league cup means nothing and has done for a long time.

    I'd be very surprised if there's any football fan anywhere who couldn't get at least a little bit excited by watching their team win an FA Cup Final.

    If I was an Arsenal fan who has watched his team win feck all for the last 7 seasons I'd instantly swap CL qualification from one of those seasons for the memories of watching my team winning an FA Cup instead.
  27. May 17, 2012
    #27

    africanspur Full Member

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    I was very happy with the league cup win under Ramos. Most fans in this country would be over the moon with a league cup win. Not all of us win/are challenging for the league and CL every season.
  28. May 17, 2012
    #28

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    Obviously, expectations for any set of fans need to be seen in context. The OP seemed to have a premise that CL qualification every year and/or the occasional challenge for the title should be enough. If you support a club with a record as good as that, winning the league cup is neither here nor there.

    Conversely, I'd say most Birmingham fans would see winning the Carling Cup as about as good as it gets.
  29. May 17, 2012
    #29

    That'sHernandez Ominously close to getting banned

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    I think he would have, I think he was sacked over the racism.
  30. May 17, 2012
    #30

    africanspur Full Member

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    But in Arsenal's case, I don't really see the link tbh. The two aren't mutually exclusive. If they were to win a league or even FA cup, why does that mean they can't also be in the top 4? 4th and league cup is better than just 4th and there is no reason why they shouldn't be able to do both.
  31. May 17, 2012
    #31

    Siorac Full Member

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    Imho Arsenal, over the past 5 years or so, overachieved actually. They even put together a credible title challenge in 2007/08 - with their spending being in the Champions League every season is actually a massive achievement.

    The fans' morale must have been somewhat eroded by the lack of trophies though. An FA Cup win would have done the world of good for their belief in Wenger's project. In that sense, trophies are very valuable. These days it's simply delusion to expect Arsenal to challenge for the title; with their spending, that's not their playground anymore.
  32. May 17, 2012
    #32

    africanspur Full Member

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    Arsenal have the 3rd highest revenue and 4th highest wage bill in the league. They've finished 3rd twice and 4th three times in the past 5 seasons. And City have only really been in their current form over the past 2 seasons.

    I don't think they've overachieved that much if at all to be honest.
  33. May 17, 2012
    #33

    Siorac Full Member

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    Well, then what they achieved is what could be expected. They definitely did not underachieve though.
  34. May 17, 2012
    #34

    Cal? from Redcafe (matchfixing department)

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    I think his whole point is that Arsenal have had a better season than Liverpool and Chelsea (if Bayern win that game), and I'd agree.
  35. May 17, 2012
    #35

    Mockney Not the only poster to be named Poster of the Year

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    I agree. I think the fans still value the FA Cup. Maybe not as much, but it means quite a lot more than the Carling. I'd take an FA Cup over 2nd anyway. Not that that's really sticking my neck out much tbf.

    Also yes, who you play in the final matters. Us beating Arsenal in the '99 semis is still remembered far more fondly than actually winning it against Newcastle. Even for me, and I was at that final. And the win against Millwall isn't remembered as fondly as the win against your lot in 96. It's the nature of it.
  36. May 17, 2012
    #36

    Havak Pokemon master

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    I agree, but I can also disagree too.

    Most seasons, we would have been able to hand pick the top 4 right away. Next season, I reckon we'll see Man Utd, Man City, Chelsea, and Arsenal finish in the top 4 quite convincingly. When this kind of thing happens and you have say, Man City and Utd running away with the Premier League, and Chelsea / Arsenal going out of the Champions League by the last 16 or last 8 along with seemingly likely to finish 3rd and 4th... They will get the feeling that they have to at least try and win the domestic cups.

    When you have no hope of winning anything else, they do become a prize that teams will make sacrifices for. Chelsea clearly sacrificed their top 4 credentials in order for the FA Cup and Champions League finals.
  37. May 17, 2012
    #37

    Mockney Not the only poster to be named Poster of the Year

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    I'd definitely sacrifice a CL win for finishing outside the top 4 the following season (probably even 2).. Otherwise, what's the point? If Chelsea win on Saturday, I'd rather have their season than City's personally.
  38. May 17, 2012
    #38

    duffer Sensible and not a complete jerk like most oppo's

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    Even if we lose on Saturday, I would not swap our season for Spurs.

    I'm sure the people in charge of the club and many fans would disagree.
  39. May 17, 2012
    #39

    Cal? from Redcafe (matchfixing department)

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    FA Cup & 3rd or 4th > 2nd

    FA Cup & 5th or below < 2nd
  40. May 17, 2012
    #40

    Mockney Not the only poster to be named Poster of the Year

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    The people in charge would, but I'm not sure how many fans. Football is all about the joy of the moments, and anyone who was in Barcelona wouldn't swap it for anything, regardless of Saturday's result.


    Yes. But the odd thing is that it's more about the possibilities than anything else. You want to be in the top 4 because then you've got the possibility of winning the CL the next season, no matter how unlikely. If someone guaranteed me we'd go out in the Quarters of the CL the following season (and obviously, not win the FA then) then I'd rather have the FA and no CL football. But obviously, no one can.

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