Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by crossy1686, May 21, 2018.
I have seen far worse performances from Arsenal at ours.
Right, I see what your doing there.
I think your just frustrated by the bleak looking future Jose is setting you up for.
The set up at Arsenal has changed top to bottom and is looking like the new regime is close to getting everything ticking.
I can see why that’s worrying for you from a Utd perspective.
And ultimately you are correct, it probably wasn’t the greatest of displays put on last night, but it was enough that you had to get lucky to scrape a draw at OT.
Missed a trick not going for him.
It's reassuring how tidy the deal to get Emery was and just how well he has clicked at the club. It shows that the boardroom are switched on even though we aren't getting the cash support from the owner that we'd like.
Why am I getting stick then!?
I was expressing the opinion on a United forum as someone who went to the game and saw what I saw. I wouldn't bother going on an Arsenal forum and telling you all what I thought about your performance. If Arsenal fans think they're great, fine.
If you actually read my posts on the United sections of the forum you'd see the not so pleasant reviews I give to our players, board and at times, the manager.
I don't think there's many on this forum who rate our players as low as me.
I say it how I see it. I've seen loads of great United-Arsenal matches over the years in the exact seat I was sat in last night. The speed of play, speed of thought, quality, vision, skill etc was shockingly low in comparison to some of those games.
The lad in your midfield with the hair was head and shoulders above the rest of the players in terms of actual ability. But there was a lot of terrible Arsenal players. I have no reason or urgency to slag Arsenal players off.
Must be something to do with it being an arsenal related thread you’re posting on?
Maybe tone, maybe “hopeless” was the incorrect word?
No Gooner in their right mind thinks all is fantastic at the moment, but we are feeling a tad more positive than this time last year or even the last 4-5 years when we took on all those new supporters you alluded to when we were utter crap.
You’re talking like both of your goals weren’t lucky too?
In my opinion you were pretty hopeless yesterday. You really should have beaten us. I don't think any of the other top 6 teams would have come away with anything other than a win. We're worse than hopeless.
You being fatigued after the Tottenham game is a potential reason but when the team sheet came through, I was underwhelmed with your team and was even more underwhelmed come the game.
I think you need a lot better players before you get excited but that's just my opinion, Arsenal fans could be absolutely buzzing it's not my business to say what they should be thinking. I just expressed my thoughts.
Not at all, never spoke about our goals, but I’ll take the bit of luck.
But to say “luck” got you the draw at your own place is rather indicative of your own issues.
Especially if your Manchester Utd against a “Hopeless” Arsenal.
Probably something to that for sure, after playing spurs at the weekend, coming to play a Jose side was a bit anticlimactic as well.
And yet we could barely pose any threat. Yesterday you would have lost if it hadn't been for De Gea in the second half.
Nonsense. De Gea’s actually had much busier days against Arsenal. The game where he made that incredible double save, for starters. We might have won but you caused us far more problems in that game than you did last night.
I’ve been mainly bigging Arsenal up in this thread, despite not watching you much, and was shocked how poor you were. We’re so crap we make bang average teams look good and the likes of Derby, Crystal Palace, Bournemouth and Newcastle looked more impressive against us than you lot. Might just have been an off day. Time will tell. Hopefully not.
The same De Gea that gifted you the first goal We are absolutely shocking this season, yet we looked like a decent outfit against you.
Just a reminder that we have a 36% win rate at home this season. Any top team should put us to the sword and spank us because we are certified midtable.
I mean that’s the point. The fact we are so shocking right now means we were completely there for the taking, but Arsenal (and united) were an absolute shambles that match. We, however, all know that united are dog shit right now. It was one of the most error ridden games. Comparative to your performance against Spurs you were diabolical. Apart from the 3-2 (Rashford brave) game, I haven’t seen as hopeless a performance against us since the 8-2.
I’d agree in part, but saying we were awful is just a distraction from the mire you’re in at the moment.
Don’t get me wrong, I consider Arsenal a top side and yes we should be able to get one over on you, especially the way you’re set up at the moment. But let’s also not forget that we are operating under a completely different regime and to have a dodgy game against yourselves after only 4 months of a brand new system is to be expected, and not too much cause for concern considering the improvements that are clear for everyone to be seen.
If we’d spent what you have in the last 3 years of your own “transition” and it was with a top 3 manager I’d be getting real antsy.
What’s Jose’s reasoning?
Fair play to Emery for bringing some life into this arsenal club. However, I still think it would be a major disappointment if arsenal don't finish in top 4 and also not win the Europa this season.
Those are some pretty outlandish expectations. It'd be a disappointment for them to not achieve either, but a major disappointment if they don't achieve both? Extreme.
"You couldn't even beat us, you are so shit" Some actual weirdos in here, acting like they're supporting a tanking NBA franchise.
Mourinho really has an effect on some of you
So if they win the Europa League and finish 5th it would be a disappointment? Why would you even care about finishing 4th if you qualified through Europa, that's the only reason anybody cares about getting inside the top four.
For the record, I don't think they will be winning the EL. Quite a few very strong teams are going to drop in to it (One of PSG, Liverpool and Napoli possibly, probably us as well) and I'm not sure Arsenal will have the depth to compete without focusing either the league or the EL. I don't think Emery will stake everything on a cup competition when top 4 looks very achievable.
I know he has a fantastic record in the competition though, so maybe that will show again. Personally I have them down as favourites to get fourth over Chelsea right now, but I won't pretend my opinion on this doesn't change quite regularly with form etc .. teams suddenly switch it on at different moments in the season, so we'll see.
But isn't that emery's target to get CL football. I understand expectations at arsenal is a bit less compared to United or city but even then It will be a disappointment especially after such a decent start to the season.
Read my post again and you will get the answer. If they win Europa, it will be a successful season considering he will bring back CL football at arsenal.
You worded it in a way that made it seem like it'd be disappointing if they failed to win BOTH, not either. But even if they finish 5th & continue to improve, realistically, that will have been a good season for a team that's finished 6th & 5th in recent years.
Yes and that is why I said fair play to Emery for studying a broken ship. He has done a really good job of that but ultimately aim would be to be in top 4. 5th would be considered a disappointment (not a failure).
like @Tommy says, your wording made it sound like they would require both.
Regardless .. I think if Arsenal were to narrowly miss out on the top 4 it would be disappointing but not the end of the world. They would have made progress from Wenger's final seasons where they finished miles off, remember Emery has had a very short amount of time to change the side around. He's doing exceptionally well to have them competing thus far, with far from a massive amount of spending.
I know that people will likely counter this with 'it's Arsenal they have bigger expectations' but bigger clubs like United have spent colossal amounts of money and struggled to get consistent CL football. It's a seriously hard and competitive task right now, and unless the Arsenal board are prepared to start investing more significantly then it can't really be something they expect. You've got projects at Spurs/Liverpool which are much further along and the likes of Chelsea who spend more competing for those spots.
Emery really is doing fantastic work to already have Arsenal neck and neck with Spurs & Chelsea already. Forget how big a club they are, focus on the reality of how much they spent and the state they were in when he took the job.
If it makes people feel better saying we were hopeless and we should’ve handily beaten Utd then go for it. I’d be looking for something to grasp onto as well.
I’ll fully agree we didn’t have the same intensity and form as with the spurs game, and we may have been shite on the night, but you can’t deny overall we look like we’re progressing as opposed to..
And I’m not denying that. All I’m saying is you were hopeless, we were hopeless and in a vacuum no set of fans can walk away from that match with their heads held high. As a fan for the season of course I would much rather be in your shoes. And definitely think you’re on to a good thing with Emery. I only jumped in defender his assertion that Arse were hopeless on the night + agree that it will take a good few transfer windows before you’re proper title contenders again. Especially when we have City playing as they are right now. As Gary Neville said Emery is a fantastic manager and give him 3 more transfer windows before you see a REAL Emery side.
I do think the 20 game unbeaten run flatters you a touch (as crazy as that seems), as I think it’s the mindset which has been pushing you through a fair few of them rather than your quality. Wolves, Palace, Bournemouth, tbh even Leicester apart from Ozil’s second half display (and now he’s out of favour) it was a grind. Like when you looked at the team sheets for both squads on Wednesday only Auba jumps out at you as the major threat.
I’m not critiquing Arse to feel better about our current state. It’s just more interesting to think about. We’re so far gone that it doesn’t even matter. Especially when there is only one thing that needs to happen, a change of manager. Like your last few years, it kind of wasn’t worth speaking about the team when the main thing you needed was for Wenger to leave. Now that’s happened you can look at the individual problems your squad faces.
That’s a proper good response there Macheda, and I appreciate your balanced viewpoint on it.
Indeed, momentum is carrying us along a bit and every Gooner out there with any sense has been anticipating and hopefully prepared (we all have tons of “mental strength” from the last 6/8 years for when we hit the wall. I won’t lie when I tell you I was disappointed and felt somewhat hard done by with the draw, particularly after the display against spurs, but the fact that I actually felt that way sums it up, because this time last season I would’ve been dreading a visit to OT and would’ve been celebrating a draw. As it is, I can only be happy with the fact we are getting results and there is a sense the tide has begun to turn.
As for Utd, they’re the only other big 6 team I can cope with winning the league, and it’s a shame that JM has dug an even deeper hole for you, especially after the other pair of duds.
I know there’s probably a sense amongst Utd fans that had JM rocked up immediately after SAF, he could’ve potentially kept the momentum going for that league winning side. But he has had his day judging by what’s happening and it’s past time he went, and that’s something us Gooner are quite familiar with. Problem is, who’s going to go there first of all, and then how long are they going to take and how much will it cost to turn things around for yourselves?
Sorry if I’ve taken this a bit off thread topic.
Winning a trophy is always the most important thing, especially if it allows you to qualify to the Champions League again. With Emery's record in the Europa, we should really go gor it.
We did a decent job of containing you away from home and you did a decent job of containing us. You were also pretty good against Chelsea. You also looked much more dynamic with Lukaku benched. As a typical Mourinho team you actually perform better against teams that come forward and attack you.
If we're talking about competing for top 4, well we are right now. If we're talking about titles, we're not close. We should be aiming for between 75-80 points, which would be a successful 1st season CL or not. He certainly needs to build a better squad though long term.
It's interesting contrasting it with the past because we were both the best teams in the country for a good period of time. For Arsenal that hasn't been the case for a long time and for United it hasn't since Fergie left. The immediate goal for both of our teams in the medium term isn't winning the league or CL. That isn't realistic for either team in the immediate future considering how good City are right now.
You mention 'ball players and unlocking a door' and neither of us had our best playmaker playing in Ozil/Mata who are both top class on their day. Both teams also looked to play quite defensively too making it harder for the forwards of each team. Players that can beat several players and make someone out of nothing while scoring from 30 yards, then no I suppose we don't really have that as good as goalscorers as Lacazette and Aubameyang. Although you arguably have 2 players capable of that in Alexis and Martial. We don't really have a player like that. Spurs have Kane, Liverpool have Salah and City Aguero/De Bruyne
I think you have good players that are under utilised. I was very much jealous of Alexis, Pogba, Rashford and Martial. But you're never going to get the best out of them by playing Mourinho low block, not employing high pressing and not allowing overload of your players in the opponents half. Depay is a case in point, he's performing now, he wasn't in previous systems. He was another player I was jealous of you signing. But you've had 2 defensive managers for 5 seasons employing outdated tactics so your attacking players have generally suffered because of this. Honestly I forgot you had our best player in Alexis, that's how bad it is. And I did laugh myself silly seeing Alexis trying to dribble out of his own half, time and again overdribling, getting tackled time and again. Put him close to goal and overload the attack and he'll score 20 and assist 15 for you. As a false 9 he had his 30 goal season. He isn't doing that effectively in this pseudo wingback role and I actually predicted this would happen as I saw United fans rubbing their hands together with glee but I couldn't imagine it'd be this bad. And yes I know what a frustrating little tosser he can be, but if you buy him, play to his strengths. Guardiola wouldn't be starting Lukaku, he'd be starting Alexis, Martial and Rashford imo.
It's not just Mourinho. When Bergkamp was at Inter he was in a defensive system that meant he was seen as flop, as soon as he goes to Arsenal he's back in the world class bracket.
Going back to what you saw on Wednesday being a poor spectacle, it's largely the tactics imo. Both managers tried to negate the others attack and keep players behind the ball. It's kind of telling you can score quickly when chasing the lead but once your level it's back to defending and hoping to nick a goal. The potential for plenty of goals is definitely within your team.
A point away from home against the top 6 is generally considered a good result. Saying mindset has carried us through is actually a huge positive. Mindset is the reason teams play so much better at home. It's completely what we lacked away from home last season, which must be our worst away season on record. Mentality is a large part of the reason SAF was so successful and why you've flopped since then. If a manager has players playing out of their skin for him and running through walls for him he's won the most important battle he'll face.
I actually reckon if we made that same statement it'd be bannable offense, can you imagine posting on a United forum 'Seasons over lads, can't even beat that shite side United'
Clearly you didn't read any of my posts. So let me clarify to the bolded points.
I myself said it would be a disappointment to not get the CL but not a failure. They have done a very good job.
With regard to your second point , I clearly said in a reply to Tommy that expectations at arsenal infact is less I'm comparison to United or city so can't understand why you would being united spending insane money. If emery was sitting 5th with United, he would have been bashed by the media and also by some section of fans. So at arsenal expectations are lower.
And regarding the third issue I have already mentioned Emery has done a very good job and has steadied a sinking ship very well. So my post was never a dig at Emery, never.
My whole post was targeted towards arsenal fans in general. I am not saying they should or would turn on Emery but they should be disappointed.
Chill, my post wasn't really just aimed at you but a general overview of what Emery has achieved at Arsenal.
If Emery was sitting 5th with United he would be getting bashed? Debatable. At the start of the season sure, but if a United manager had taken over the club in a similar situation and had them 20 games unbeaten and neck and neck with 3rd place I don't think criticism would be huge. You'll always get major expectations at United but I think a majority of sensible fans would be very pleased with the progress made. Also, along with the expectations at United you get significant financial backing, which you don't get at United. You have to think that with that backing Emery would be at least a few points better off and sat inside the top four.
I never said you were making a dig at Emery, all I said was that despite top 4 being the obvious aim it can still be a successful season without it.
I'm not sure I saw the same game as others here!
United have been shit at home but played well for periods of the game and appeared to have some fight about them.
Arsenal are usually poor at Old Trafford but turned up with a plan. They weren't world class and they didn't spank United as some thought they might, but it's clearly a work in progress and at times played some really nice, attacking football.
In my humble opinion, a draw is about right. United=Poor right now, but had a better game than of late. Arsenal=Still improving.
It was a fun match.
Chelsea are also in the Europa, some other ucl teams will be dropping in there too. Not winning it wouldn't be a major disappointment
Jose was getting criticized since his first season when we were 6th and also went on some unbeaten run. Yet he was questioned (rightly so). Trust me Europa saved him. Like I said expectations at United is more , both from media and fans. I dont think Emery deserves any criticism up till now, as I said he has done a very good job.
I never said Arsenal were awful. I said they aren't a top team. I'm not sure what relevancy the rest of your comments have. It just looks like deflection since I admitted in the post you quoted that we are horrible at the moment, yet you seemed to think that I was trying to ignore that fact when I wasn't.
United are mid table standard this season, while Arsenal are peetering between top 6 and top 4 standard. That's all I suggested. Any suggestion that Arsenal are a top team is simply false, they won't make a mark in the league and will most likely be unfancied in the Europa league once the CL teams drop down.
The juries still out on Emery, he inherited a complete mess left by Wenger and will need another season to make the team his own. I won't fully judge him until next season but I'm not impressed by him so far. All he's done is update the dinosaur mentality that Wenger had regarding recruitment, man management and substitutions. Arsenal finally got a DM, he doesn't let Ozil and Ramsey get away with whatever they want, and makes substitution based on the game state instead of at the 70th minute. Pretty standard stuff for managers.
You’re 100% right, I was just trying to deflect from our disaster of a draw against you. There just seemed to be a few Utd fans pissed off at us for not winning and the word “awful” seemed to have commonality based on some of their comments.
As for the rest of your post, these aren’t really things Gooners have ignored, and no one I’ve read on here has delusions about the work still to be done.
As far as Arsenal not being a “top side”, sure. If a couple of seasons out of the top 4 after 19 consecutive years in it, and only 3 FA cups in recent years is enough to relegate our status below the likes of spurs then I consider myself delusional.
I didn't say that Gooners ignored what I said. I was simply clarifying my post since you seemed to have grouped me in with people that said Arsenal are awful. I think Arsenal are a decent team that with some additions at the back can become a top team
As for the Spurs comment, Spurs are not a top team either, they are nowhere near that at the moment. I also find it hilarious that Arsenal at their lowest point in decades won 3 FA cups on the bounce while Spurs at their highest point in decades have won feck all. I consider top teams as teams that challenge for the league and CL regularly, United and Arsenal haven't been a top team for a good while, I wasn't even born the last time Spurs were a top team.
Okay mate, I’m not into nit picking posts and being pedantic about the wording, but you have at ‘er.
Glad we’re in good company then, not being a “top side”.
I’m nearly 50, so I wasn’t even born when spurs were last considered a proper top side
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