United Hour Podcast - Clarets Done In By A Bit Of Pink

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Schmiznurf, Sep 5, 2018.

  1. Sep 5, 2018
    #1

    Schmiznurf Full Member

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    Join host Nik @Rood as he is joined by Imran @Annihilate Now!, Craig @Schmiznurf and Ed @That'sHernandez as they discuss the win over Burnley including a Fellaini masterclass, talk about Jose in or out and much much more.

    Subscribe & listen on Itunes or wherever get your pods by searching for United Hour

    Podomatic: https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/redcastpod/episodes/2018-09-05T02_12_15-07_00
    iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/ca/podcast/united-hour/id902792476?mt=2
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    As always, a huge thanks to the editor @12OunceEpilogue

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    Thanks everyone & enjoy!
  2. Sep 5, 2018
    #2

    That'sHernandez Ominously close to getting banned

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    Spoilers:

    Just saying, there’s no way Valencia would get into the starting line up of any other top team competing for silverware in any other league, with the exception of perhaps Juventus if reports regarding Darmian are to be believed.
  3. Sep 5, 2018
    #3

    Schmiznurf Full Member

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    The speech that dumbfounded us all, in 10 years they'll make a movie about it. :lol:
  4. Sep 5, 2018
    #4

    Annihilate Now! ...or later, I'm not fussy Scout

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    Well he is "the worst footballer to have ever played football anywhere in life ever" (direct quote)
  5. Sep 5, 2018
    #5

    That'sHernandez Ominously close to getting banned

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    :lol: I didn’t go that far!
  6. Sep 5, 2018
    #6

    Vault Dweller Full Member

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    :lol::lol:

    Great pod as usual guys.
  7. Sep 5, 2018
    #7

    ForestRGoinUp New Member

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    Imran's point about the team not trusting the system and losing confidence once things go wrong. It's a difficult point to contextualize, apart from just seeing what we've looked like against Brighton and Spurs, but I could not agree more. To be fair, it was the same under Moyes and LVG. That says to me it is down to the players in a major way, but you would have expected a manager of Mourinho's pedigree to overcome this sort of collective uncertainty amongst the squad.
  8. Sep 5, 2018
    #8

    That'sHernandez Ominously close to getting banned

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    I disagree with regards to this happening under LVG. The football we played under LVG was dire because we played exactly how we were instructed to, which is why we rarely had chances on goal. In fact I think I recall him saying himself his strikers get a few chances and he expects them to put them away.

    With regards to Moyes, I don’t think he had a specific plan or style of play he wanted to adapt to.
  9. Sep 5, 2018
    #9

    AR87 Full Member

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    Tbh I completely disagree with this and think it demonstrates very short term memory. Last season alone we came back to win in multiple instances like 1-0 down against Chelsea, 2-0 down at City, 2-0 down at Palace, 1-0 down against Tottenham at Wembley and also came back from 2-0 down against Burnley for a draw.

    I think what has happened this year is Jose is trying to evolve our style of play, but with the WC had a difficulty integrating many of the key players into this process. As a result we've looked disjointed against Brighton and generally been inconsistent in our approach and style of play. Going behind against Brighton and Tottenham exacerbated some of these issues.

    It's just far too early in the season to make sweeping judgments. If the team had given up and played without any passion or desire against Tottenham and Burnley I'd agree, but that's not at all what I saw.
  10. Sep 5, 2018
    #10

    Annihilate Now! ...or later, I'm not fussy Scout

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    It's not completely far-fetched to think that the players had more confidence and were far more behind Jose/our tactics & approach last season, then they are now....
  11. Sep 5, 2018
    #11

    AR87 Full Member

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    I think the sample size you're operatin g with to prove that is miniscule. Need to see alot more of the season play out to reach that conclusion.
  12. Sep 5, 2018
    #12

    Red Devil Rising New Member

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    and......yeah!
  13. Sep 5, 2018
    #13

    Roosney Full Member

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    Excellent, just finished the Burnley preview this week.
  14. Sep 5, 2018
    #14

    Frank Grimes Full Member

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    What the hell? That was a good away performance, Shaw overlapped numerous times( his crossing wasn't the best). What is Ed on about?, talk about misery guts.
  15. Sep 5, 2018
    #15

    Rood nostradamus like gloater Scout

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    ye - that'll be me - ye!
  16. Sep 5, 2018
    #16

    Rood nostradamus like gloater Scout

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    Ye thats pretty much where I am at

    True that we had some great comebacks last season, do need to get rid of this habit of conceeding twice in quick succession though - I hope Jose is finally trying to evolve as its been a long time coming, some encouraging signs but not enough to get excited about just yet.
  17. Sep 6, 2018
    #17

    That'sHernandez Ominously close to getting banned

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    I’m a bit like Imran, I thrive on negativity.

    Even so, apart from later in the game we played far too many balls to feet in front of the two banks of four Burnley had. I’m sick of seeing it and I actually made a point to the guys in the pod WhatsApp group; the secret footballer once said that despite the likes of Arsenal and Chelsea’s quality (and organisation for the latter), Manchester United was the hardest team to play against because we would just run through the opposition. My problem is I don’t see this from the current team and I’m at a point where I’m not even convinced we’re capable of it any more. If that’s overly negative then I dont know what to say, I can’t apologise though!

    I expect to see United playing football positively and creatively, I have no problem with pragmatism and I firmly believe there is a time and place for it but against lesser opponents? Wrong time, wrong place.
  18. Sep 6, 2018
    #18

    AR87 Full Member

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    Feel like this is the wrong match to criticize them for it. Burnley sat extremely deep so getting in behind them was very difficult. We had to stretch them and we actually did this better than we have previously with Shaw getting forward on the overlap and Pogba at times popping up on the right wing.

    When Burnley had to come out and play a bit we started doing this more.
  19. Sep 6, 2018
    #19

    That'sHernandez Ominously close to getting banned

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    I take your point, it’s probably fair. However I think this was a problem for most of last season, if not all, and is continuing into this. Something has to change in my opinion.

    Totally agree regarding Shaw, he’s had a fantastic start to the season and I’m really please for him because I’ve always thought he was capable of it. I do think the current system with a back three may lend itself to bringing out the best of Shaw’s abilities.
  20. Sep 6, 2018
    #20

    witchtrials Full Member

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    Another good episode, listening to this every week now.

    One thing I'd take issue with though is the consensus around Pochettino as the best replacement should Mourinho end up leaving, more specifically the emphasis on Pochettino's Premier League experience as an important part of his credentials.

    If we look at the sides who have been most competitive in the league in the last 15 years (us, Arsenal, Chelsea, City (Abu Dhabi period only) and Liverpool), the managerial appointments (not including short-term caretakers) break down like this:

    No previous experience of managing in England:
    Mourinho (first spell at Chelsea), Benitez at Liverpool, Ancelotti, Guardiola, van Gaal, Conte, Villas-Boas (at Chelsea), Hiddink, Grant, Sarri, Mancini, Pellegrini, Emery, Klopp... also Ferguson and Wenger if you include managers already in post at the start of that period

    Previous experience of managing in England:
    Moyes, Hughes, Mourinho (second spell at Chelsea, and at United), Dalglish (second spell at Liverpool), Rodgers, Hodgson, Di Matteo, Benitez at Chelsea

    Comparing the two lists it's not at all obvious to me what the evidence is that top clubs benefit from hiring managers with previous Premier League experience, and wonder if it isn't just a bit of a hoary old cliche. A bit of Premier League exceptionalism maybe.
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2018
  21. Sep 6, 2018
    #21

    Rood nostradamus like gloater Scout

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    @witchtrials interesting comparison list, although I would say that Pochettino's PL experience is just one of many factors on why I like him and not necessarily the most important either

    still the big question mark against him is that he has never won anything
  22. Sep 7, 2018
    #22

    Ashley R1+O New Member

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    Good pod again guys. I think it was cold heart light of day analytics, even if I don't agree with some of the things that were said. All good points though.

    I'm with you on Tony V though Ed - maybe in the moment you had a mare but Valencia is a crust of congealed spunk. He's horrendous. Next time you watch the game, watch him specifically and watch how many times he's never in line with the defense, goes walkabout on Smalling when the opposition are transitioning with the ball and watch Smalling try to marshal him. It's genuinely hilarious how flustered Smalling gets sometimes because it is clear Valencia is in a mind of his own when he plays and doesn't listen to anything. Here's the kicker :lol: he's the fecking captain. Smh to be honest.

    Not an easy solution though and I agree that he's at least better than Darmian but the problem is they are both 4th and 5th choice right backs with nobody in front of them at all. The fullback conundrum runs deep on both sides, we've got three reliable guys and only one of them is an actual fullback. The other fullback we have is a deep bench level fullback.

    Christ there are some hilarious combination breakers in this squad :lol: wingers at fullback, 10's on the wing, 6/8/10's that can't be tied to a position just existing in the offence, strikers on the wing, big lump's like Fellaini playing better than some of our guys in three of the midfield positions, Smalling cello-taping the defense together because nobody can seem to stay next to him for long enough. All you can do is laugh really :lol:
  23. Sep 7, 2018
    #23

    VanGaalyTime Full Member

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    Yeah I found some of the negativity around the Burnley game puzzling to be honest. Yeah, Burnley were useless and will probably be relegated, but it's not as if we haven't drawn or lost these kinds of games before. If Lukaku had finished his easiest chances and Pogba scored we'd be looking at a 6-0 away from home. I think what's happening is the new background guys like Carrick are having an influence on our play. We're moving the ball forward quicker and pressing the ball so much better this season. Against Spurs, we could have been 3-0 up at half time with better finishing. Our defence is still a shambles, obviously, but the change in how we attack will result in much more entertaining games this season. Shaw is looking great as an attacking force, out of nowhere. And with Matic getting fit, working out Fred's position and even, shock horror, including Fellaini as a roving defensive player, we'll be more solid through the middle. The combination of these factors has me excited for the season ahead. There are going to be very few 1-1 draws compared to recent seasons and many more 3-2, 5-0 games.
  24. Sep 9, 2018
    #24

    That'sHernandez Ominously close to getting banned

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    Glad I’m not the only mentalist knocking about then! I haven’t even paid much attention to him defensively truth be told, apart from the glaring mistakes he makes, obviously.

    It’s his constant refusal to knock a cross in first time and instead taking about 5 touches before deciding he is unable to beat his man and then the inevitable sideways or reverse pass. It just ends any chance of our attack creating an opportunity at goal and means we have to start all over again because the opposition’s defence now has their shape.

    A little off-top but it reminds me of our winger situation. I’m not sure we recorded it but one week after we had finished I think we all had a bit of a chat about Wilfried Zaha. He’s really grown and developed at Palace these last few years since leaving us and I think if the policy is we are buying younger players I don’t see why we wouldn’t see if he’s open to coming back. That’d be our right wing potentially sorted in my opinion, granted he’s not necessarily a world class galactico but neither is Perisic and Zaha four years younger and proven in the premier league.
  25. Sep 10, 2018
    #25

    Ashley R1+O New Member

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    It is a good experiment in our games, watch just Valencia and Smalling when the opposition have the ball (if they are in shot). A lot of pointing and a lot of arms thrown up in the air from Smalling a lot of Valencia not even trying to stay in line with the back line. (To be fair our whole back line communicates horribly. Smalling wears some of this lack of leadership in truth.)

    I think it goes slightly beyond his refusal to knock in a cross, to his inability to consistently deliver something serviceable. Even when he has a look up he can't accurately put the ball in front of Lukaku to nut home. I've said it before on this board, if you were a player in the box on the receiving end of Valencia's attacking option would you have any serious clue where he was going to put it? You'd be standing in the box making a run thinking "well I hope this goes near me.." and that really has a depreciating value on our offence. (It is arguable that some of our other wide options suffer from similar ailments).

    I'm going to go you one better............... This is for all the pod guys because I don't think I can be bothered having a long drawn out bark fest that will ensue on the actual forum with everyone piling on...

    But are we really 100% sure that Ed Woodward is trying to get Mourinho's targets at all...
    Also, has he really backed any of these managers 100% at all?........ My faith has definitely been wavered with the revelation over this summer that I am not even sure Ed is trying to work on this team properly beyond just dry-bumming as many stars into this team as humanly possible even though they don't work out with the clubs ethos and Mourinho's phil-.... er.. coaching framework.

    It is a horrendous transfer strategy and some of our signings in the past (your Di Maria's, Falcao's, Bastian's) just don't really make sense? Maybe he's not going 100% ignore button on the signings that Mourinho wants but I still feel that what the hell is the point of trying to build a functioning team like you say above when overpaying and oversecuring your assets for their marketability before they've shown any aptitude on the pitch.

    It is just such an insane strategy that doesn't fit this club at all.
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2018
  26. Sep 11, 2018
    #26

    Rood nostradamus like gloater Scout

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    Im sure Ed will make some attempt to get the players Jose wants but at what cost is a different matter and there is clearly a disconnect between Jose and Ed. Still its difficult to argue that Jose hasnt been backed as vast sums have been spent with only City outspending us so Jose's claims that coming 2nd last year was a great achievement are difficult to swallow when he has the 2nd most expensive squad.

    Also I dont remember many fans complaining about signing Di Maria or Bastian at the time, its easy to complain with hindsight - I do agree that our strategy has gone a bit 'Galactico' though which was never really the style under Fergie but then maybe its not that much of a surprise when the current CEO is more about finance and commercial value than football.
    I think the club do recognise that there is an issue with our transfer dealings though, which is why we see talk about a DoF coming in - I wasnt sure about that before as the club never had one in the past but I think its clear now that the sooner the better really.
  27. Sep 11, 2018
    #27

    Ashley R1+O New Member

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    Bastian was probably a bad example after thinking about it a little further. Because he was clearly somebody that LVG went in on as his signing. But Di Maria/Falcao made no sense for a manager like Van Gaal though? Thats the thing, as if that wasn't an Ed Woodward "you what? There is an ex madrid player we can stuff into this team and sell pasta rolls with his name on them? BANG HIM IN LAD 60M NO NO 65M JUST GET HIM IN!"..

    Some of these things during the last five years make me go... "hang on.... Is the manager REALLY in charge of the player recruitment?" and should there really be some sort of layer of planning in between the manager (not Jose specifically) and Ed Woodward? (the big DOF stuff going on at the moment) The whole thing just seems bizarre after this latest season. There clearly needs to be some sort of planning at the managerial level, either let Mourinho build and execute a proper scouting network and Ed needs to take a fecking stool and back off. If not then we're destined to cop this revolving door of player revolt.

    You've nailed it with the "galactico" thing. It is completely at odds with the legacy, and the blueprint that Sir Alex Ferguson left. But that horse has bolted. The wage bill is completely ruined, unless you get shot of Sanchez/Pogba/Lukaku to rebuild the wage/squad system. Ed is definitely not going to do that while he is in this position, we're set for just getting superstars bummed into the team and then a manager who is placed in a scenario of consistently getting pelters for his players just dropping tools during games and taking zero responsibility and pointing to him and saying "his fault" and putting sunnies on and driving their lambo out of the stadium car park.

    I defeinitly think there is more to the arguments when you guys were talking about "are they still playing for him" I think it is a grey area, I think they are in a sense but they clearly have an easy out because on the pitch there is zero leadership, zero drive, zero resolve. How the hell do you build that? I have no idea and a club this size can't be waiting around to find out.
  28. Sep 11, 2018
    #28

    That'sHernandez Ominously close to getting banned

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    I’ve been trying day in, day out. No one even answers their phones to me any more.
  29. Sep 11, 2018
    #29

    That'sHernandez Ominously close to getting banned

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    I’m on the fence on Ed Woodward, unlike the rest of the gang I don’t actually buy into this notion that Ed Woodward isn’t a ‘football man’, I don’t think he’s any less of a football man than David Gill was initially, whose background is very much in finance and accounting. Ed Woodward’s background is much the same, I think the difference people perceive is Ed Woodward looks a lot more like your typical smug Canary Wharf wanker than David Gill did.
  30. Sep 11, 2018
    #30

    Annihilate Now! ...or later, I'm not fussy Scout

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    Big difference is that Gill never overstepped Fergie, nor signed players Fergie may not have wanted.

    Someone recently posted an extract from one of Fergie's book, where Gill apparently told Fergie that they wouldn't sign Yorke as he wasn't worth it... Fergie told him he makes the decisions and we signed Yorkie (or something to that effect).
  31. Sep 11, 2018
    #31

    Schmiznurf Full Member

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    It's not necessarily about background though but knowledge about football. David Gill clearly knew Fergie knew football a lot more than he did so deferred to him on footballing decisions, whereas Ed has been going against the manager's wishes for the most part, which is backed by both Moyes and LVG. Ed clearly doesn't know much about football but he also clearly thinks his judgement is superior to seasoned professionals, which is absolutely fecking ludicrous.
  32. Sep 11, 2018
    #32

    AR87 Full Member

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    It's fine if Woodward wants to have some say in the club's transfer dealings. He's the one signing the checks and negotiating contracts and fees, so it's not ludicrous for him to want that say. That being said, now that he's interjected himself into squad building in that capacity I feel the lack of a quality CB and natural width with an RW falls on him above anybody else.

    He didn't want to sanction purchases for Alderweireld or Willian this summer because they would have cost alot of money with virtually no re-sale value. That in and of itself isn't a dumb decision, but then failing to bring in anybody in those areas to bolster the squad, particularly at RW where we don't even have a real option is a massive failure. Vetoing Mourinho's targets is all well and good, but if you don't bring alternatives to the table yourself then you're as much, if not moreso, to blame.
  33. Sep 11, 2018
    #33

    lucawork New Member

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    How negative can these guys be honestly, we smashed Burnley and should've been 5/6 up, imran saying they created chances? What chance exactly? Cause i don't think David was tested once! Also saying Tottenham would've hammered us regardless? We dominated the game apart from a 5 minute period where they scored two goals. Imran is so so negative, if you don't want to back the manager go support someone else?! Back the team and get behind the manager, saying we will lose to Chelsea aswell what a miserable so and so.
  34. Sep 11, 2018
    #34

    Schmiznurf Full Member

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    I mean, I was positive so there's that :D
  35. Sep 11, 2018
    #35

    Rood nostradamus like gloater Scout

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    Best first post ever - well worth the 6 month wait !
  36. Sep 12, 2018
    #36

    Ashley R1+O New Member

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    Yeah thats fair, everyone is entitled to their view, but I don't really buy that at all. Especially the way it isn't working between the managerial position and the player acquisition parts of the club at the moment. There isn't really any point throwing punches at each other over an issue like this though as neither of us can change it and I'd hope that if Mourinho does stay beyond next summer then we desperately need to sort out the football facing front office issues surrounding player recruitment.
    That is spot on, the two have to work in unison. The whole "I gave him some names and said get it done" and then us coming up snake eyes in the market was just bizarre to me. Shook a lot of the sense away from what we as fans see and how the front office is functioning. The whole point is trying to refresh the playing group over the next few years because LVG gutted every senior player that wasn't nailed down.

    I am sure Mourinho was paraphrasing the machinations of player recruitment but jesus, sounds frighteningly disconnected there. What a shit way to work.

    You're hitting on a good point Ed, (Ed? Ed. Ed? Ed! Lol) some of our decisions made no sense. I genuinely believed after Moyes/LVG we were in need of some real world class players and some actual identity players. So signing the Pogba/Ibrahimovic combo and the Sanchez follow up.. It actually makes sense. The thing that doesn't make sense is not going for about 3 or 4 grindemup players to supplement the playing group with a genuine drive from below the superstars. Players that will take responsibility to elevate the "stars", it feels like there is nothing there supplementing the stars and the whole lot falls over with a couple of rapid fire goals and a lot of "meh who cares Mourinhos fault anyway innit"...

    Strange for a club like United, no?
  37. Sep 13, 2018
    #37

    Rood nostradamus like gloater Scout

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    Well seems you are actually agreeing that Woodward isnt a football man but just saying that you dont think Gill was either?
    However Gill has often talked about being a lifelong United fan and at least having some interest in the game, his son was United youth as well - Fergie had also talked up his football knowledge on occasion whereas Ive never seen or heard anything like that about Woodward.
    I think all the talk of DoF shows that the club also recognise that they need someone else to deal with the football side of things so Woodward can focus on the commercial/finance.
  38. Sep 13, 2018
    #38

    Rood nostradamus like gloater Scout

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    I dont totally agree with your view - there are clearly issues with recruitment but there is usually some logic to most signings. Surely players like Matic, Herrera and Fellaini fit the mould of players to support the 'stars'? Also others who came and went like Schneiderlin, Blind and several defensive signings were supposed to be that but didnt work out.

    The biggest issue is still that our current squad has been put together by 4 different managers so its inevitable that there is going to be some unbalance in there - Im actually pretty surprised that Jose hasnt got rid of more players, our squad is bloated and has been that way for years now. Could really benefit from cutting 4/5 players and replacing them with 2 big names plus giving a bit more chance to young players.

    Really the club is still working out the best way forward behind the scenes after the Fergie/Gill era - we all expected some turmoil after that but 5 years in and now we see talk about a major structural change with a DoF which the club has never had before and will surely take time to integrate someone like that into the club.

    Jose's way of airing his grievances in public dont help either, he needs to learn how to fight his battles without constantly making back page headlines - Fergie and Gill have both talked about how often they argued over transfers but it was all kept behind closed doors with a united front presented to the media. I suppose that is part of the problem as well with the board asking whether a volatile manager like Mourihno with no history of sticking around for the long term is someone who should be backed unequivocally in the transfer market.
  39. Sep 13, 2018
    #39

    Schmiznurf Full Member

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  40. Sep 17, 2018
    #40

    Rood nostradamus like gloater Scout

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    For the lazy millennials who can't manage to listen to the whole show ...