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Van Gaal

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by bond19821982, Apr 14, 2019 at 21:22.

  1. Apr 15, 2019 at 14:23

    dirkey Full Member

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    It's genuinely mind boggling to me that people can be arguing that Van Gaal did a decent job, or that we shouldn't have sacked him. How can they forget just how bad the football was? I mean, it was only a few years ago. Good god.
  2. Apr 15, 2019 at 14:25

    Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær Lutefisk is it!

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    Not hurt at all. What's he up to these days anyway? Still looking for revenge?
  3. Apr 15, 2019 at 14:26

    Kaglish10 New Member

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    He won the CL with Ajax kids. If he didn't promote Muller, Kroos and switched Schweisteiger from his wing role to a midfield role, Germany may not have won the world cup in 2014 or got to the 3rd place final in 2010. He promoted Iniesta too for the Spaniards.

    There's nothing wrong in trusting quality kids. The only problems is when these kids are not good enough, like the lot of Arsenal kids or the likes of Blackett, James Reece, McNair who weren't good. If Van Gaal could get something out of 2nd rate young talents such as Rashford, Lingard, CBJ etc what did you think he would have done with 1st rate talents such as Mbappe, Foden, De Ligt in his team? I feel Van Gaal is a manager who loves to work with kids because they are easier to teach than adults who are already set in their ways.

    Van Gaal utilising the likes of Rashford, Lingard, CBJ wasn't a lucky dip because he's always been a manager who loves working with kids in all clubs he has managed after all, he signed Martial, a young kid.

    This is really funny. No players excelled yet Rashford, Martial, Lingard, CBJ excelled in the setup? Isn't that contradictory? That's if we even choose to ignore the likes of Smalling, Blind and Carrick who slotted seamlessly in the setup.

    If no player excelled in Van Gaal's stifling setup as some of you would have us think, which of these players that were stifled by Van Gaal's supposed negative setup excelled under Mourinho? I bet Herrera was able to show these supposed creativity, incisiveness and tempo dictating he failed to show under Van Gaal's supposed negative setup that stifled him despite Carrick and Schweisteiger having no problem to showcase theirs. As well as the likes of Darmain, Rojo, ageing Rooney etc who also showed these wonderful skills they all failed to show under Van Gaal. It's time we realised that Van Gaal did his best with the average squad he had.

    Rafael hardly had a full season for us beacuse he was always injured and moreover, he was horrible for Lyon when he first came. I don't know about now but I don't regret him being shipped out.
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019 at 14:59
  4. Apr 15, 2019 at 14:28

    VeevaVee despite the protests, wears Ugg boots

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    I need to stop coming in to this thread. I'm getting ptsd
  5. Apr 15, 2019 at 14:28

    dirkey Full Member

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    It was lucky dip. He fired loads of them in there to see who stuck. Even Rashford. Only got his chance because Keane (think it was Keane?) got injured in the warm up for the Europa game. So even then, he was picking the wrong youngster.

    His Ajax team was absolutely incredible. But that was 30 years ago. People need to move on from that. He did an absolutely terrible job at United, and the team was getting worse at the end of his tenure. Did he do one or two things right? Yes. But for every 1 correct decision he made 10 incorrect.
  6. Apr 15, 2019 at 14:28

    Champagne Football Full Member

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    Van Gaal for me was the biggest footballing charlatan you could find. He did great things at Ajax but the Ajax team he managaged had the greatest collection of young superstars-to-be that the world has ever seen.

    His decision not to buy Artoro Vidal when he was available was his biggest mistake. Fellow Dutch man, Virgil Van Dijk was available for peanuts too from Celtic.

    In hindsight giving Van Gaal the job at Utd was as daft as say Barcelona announcing tomorrow that Bruce Arena will be appointed their new manager.
  7. Apr 15, 2019 at 14:30

    Saffron New Member

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    A 60+ year old who hadn’t really won anything since the 1990’s is the type of manager United should hire?

    Since the turn of the century he almost relegated Barcelona (he was fired when they were hovering 3 points off relegation at the end of the season) and had to ply his trade in fecking AZ Alkmaar for 4 years.

    Then he scraped a singular Bundesliga title with Bayern in an unconvincing fashion before finishing 3rd and getting fired again. Finishing 3rd with Bayern is pretty spectacular in and of itself.

    His reputation since the 1990s has been propped up by his Netherlands ”successes” (finishing third with Robben, RVP and Sneijder after going to penalties vs Costa Rica is apparently a major success).

    He was good in the 1990’s. Glaringly outdated for club football by the time we got him.
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019 at 14:45
  8. Apr 15, 2019 at 14:31

    Aloysius's Back 3 Full Member

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    He says he keeps a low squad number just so he can try out kids. This is exactly what happened when we as a club went through an injury crisis in his 2nd year.

    Again - LVG came to Bayern & Barcelona with the expectation to win titles & he spent time introducing some generational talents in to their first teams. What happened at United? He wasn't told to go win the titles, he was told to get European football qualifications for his tenure whilst building the club for Giggs to take over afterwards.

    It's no surprise he used a lucky dip approach because what he did was get rid of the older dross to make room for more younger players.

    At the end of the 2nd season we had TFM, CBJ, Shaw, Poole, Rashford, Lingard, Martial, Gomes and more who were in the squads at various levels be training or playing jn matches & this would have only gotten deeper and better had LVG continued on to his 3rd year.

    We would have another 5-7 young players in the first team fighting out for spots and LVG would have a near full squad of young players that took over the older players within 3 years.

    Now I'm not going to sit here and pretend that this squad at 3 years would all be world class, title winning kids on their first or second season - but the fact is Ole as manager on his first season is going to concentrate and do the exact same things that LVG did & you see it with him already using young players who are craving for the next free pre season to break through.


    That's why I said - Ole after LVG would have been heavenly.

    Jose after LVG was just a cluster of opposite habit, ideas and philosophy & is the reason why woodward has to now prove himself to retain his role.
  9. Apr 15, 2019 at 14:32

    Aloysius's Back 3 Full Member

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    Nah that seems like Jose with his interviews so far.
  10. Apr 15, 2019 at 14:40

    Varun Moderator Staff

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    You simply cannot fail at getting results AND boring the shit out of everyone at a club like United and still have the job. Regardless of his ideas being great or not, he didn't give us a choice.
  11. Apr 15, 2019 at 14:41

    dirkey Full Member

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    He's not doing the exact same things though. He has clearly identified a few players who are ready, or close to ready. And he's slowly integrating them.

    Louis was just firing guys in and hoping for the best. That's massively damaging in a lot of cases to young players who aren't ready for that level of pressure.
  12. Apr 15, 2019 at 14:52

    Aloysius's Back 3 Full Member

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    How is giving chances damaging exactly? Few players took the chances and some players didn't & truth be told alot of the players like Mcnair & Blackett showed that they lack the ability to play football to the level of United & has gone on to prove it at other clubs.

    LVG was trackloading kids on to the pitch because his role was to build a young team for Giggs to take over whilst also qualifying for the UCL. If he was to only pick the 1,2 or 3 young players and give them a random 20 mins a game to play at then we wouldn't know who could step up and don't - arguably the reason we wait for pre season to introduce the younger players. More importantly as LVG said he reduced his squad to let there be ample space for kids to come from multiple positions - if he was going to take the slow, tried and tested type introduction of youngsters for 20 mins in a carabao cup - he would need much more level of players that were experienced - like you saw the year before with RVP, Rooney, Falcao, Di Maria, Mata, Fellaini etc.
  13. Apr 15, 2019 at 14:57

    buckooo1978 Full Member

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    a lot of these players struggled under Van Gaal but, like under Mourinho in 2018, you could count the number of players performing consistently good on one hand

    the main issue I had was after spending all that money he didnt improve the team

    Darmian was not better than Rafarl
    Depay worse than Nani/Hernandez
    Schneiderlein/Schweinsteiger worse than Fletcher proved to be for West Brom
    Rojo/Blind weren't any better than Johnny Evans

    meanwhile a player like Zaha disnt get a chance under him or Moyes - such a waste of talent/resources

    how much did he blow on transfers and ended up relying on Fellaini in many games?
  14. Apr 15, 2019 at 15:26

    dirkey Full Member

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    Because it knocks their confidence. Sometimes if a player isn't ready, a damage to confidence is huge and a stunt to their development.

    That's the thing. McNair, Blackett - it was obvious IMMEDIATELY that they weren't ready. Louis should have known that before he put them in. He didn't. He was just firing guys in and hoping for the best.

    His job was to coach those young players up, get them ready for the first team, and put them in when they were ready. Not just fire them in willy nilly and hope for the best. Identify who had the talent, coach them, prepare them.
  15. Apr 15, 2019 at 15:27

    dirkey Full Member

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    Exactly. This goes on to my point that I'm making about his lack of ability to identify talent that was worthwhile keeping and coaching up. He just couldn't identify talent, full stop. His signings were just dismal.
  16. Apr 15, 2019 at 15:36

    Kaglish10 New Member

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    Fire loads of them or fired loads of average kids such as McNair, Blackett, James Reece, Joko etc? Are you simply saying these kids would have amounted to something at Manutd? Didn't he give several chances to McNair, Blackett James Reece even at the detriment of the team and to the ire of the fans who deemed them not good enough and wanted them out? This revisionism is really something.

    You said he had wanted to use Keane back then but let me ask you, was Keane proven at higher level for Van Gaal to have trusted him? He could have easily played Depay in the striker role for example, similar to how Mourinho used Hazard as his false 9 striker when he had problem with injuries at Chelsea rather than bother himself with Chelsea's academy kids. Van Gaal could have done same but preferred to trust Keane and Rashford also. How was that a lucky dip? It's really hard for some people to give Van Gaal the credit he deserves.

    If it was about Van Gaal taking punts on lot of average players such as Darmain, Rojo, injury ridden Falcao, injury prone ageing Schweisteiger etc, I wouldn't argue against that but to say he was lucky with the idea of playing kids which had always been his principles in all clubs he's managed isn't right.

    Also, he got the best out of the average ageing squad he had under him and won the FA cup with them as well as got fighting for the top four till the very end which we only lost out on goal difference. This was the same manager that got the best out of the ageing average Dutch national team and got them to the 3rd place final. Personally, I feel he's better at managing a national team, from which he could dip his hands into the plethora of talents and build a team with them like he did at the worldcup. Better still, he would do great at a club that has terrific talent pool such as Ajax's academy kids with whom he could build a good team. His judgements in the transfer window are a bit sketchy but he's capable of getting the best out of good players. In fact, I feel he would do wonders with the squad we have right now.
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019 at 15:43
  17. Apr 15, 2019 at 15:59

    Sylar Full Member

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    People trying to argue lvg wasn't a failure is still too funny :lol:

    Apparently he got the best out of an average squad _ one that finished 5th.
    His transfers "are a bit sketchy" ahaha

    Like it's arguable whether it was good or not.
    He was a failure given the amount of money he was given to bring in players to play to his style

    The turnover under him was huge and yet we had games where fellaini was up front or rvp and Rooney was in midfield
  18. Apr 15, 2019 at 16:05

    bond19821982 Full Member

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    He had a plan and he wanted to play that way. Whats wrong in that ?. He was not clueless because he wanted to replace ddg but rather he was clear what he expected from his GK.

    Pep replaced their legend GK with Bravo. Same policy isnt it?
  19. Apr 15, 2019 at 16:08

    bond19821982 Full Member

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    He wanted to sign Mane . Depay was left, Martial centre and Mane on right (pedro was also an option).

    We did a high press and it was quite good . Agree it failed miserably at times (arsenalaway)with Bastian in midfield . That's why I said, may be it would have worked with better players .
  20. Apr 15, 2019 at 16:14

    el3mel Full Member

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    Remember the QPR game when he played Di Maria as a striker and Rooney as a midfield?

    Also the Spurs game after we went 3-0 he put Young as a striker While Rashford was present and playing on the wing in the same game.

    I didn't even do similar things while playing ultimate team.
  21. Apr 15, 2019 at 16:16

    el3mel Full Member

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    That plan was crap. That what was wrong with it.
  22. Apr 15, 2019 at 16:16

    Saffron New Member

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    Not the same at all. Hart was always a pretty average keeper who got found out by Pep and subsequently the rest of the footballing world. There’s a reason he went trough 3 subpar clubs after City and isn’t even the first choice keeper at Burnley now. Good keepers just don’t drop off the face of the earth at 29.

    That’s one of the reasons Pep is a good manager and LVG is a bad one. Pep can identify someone’s actual talent level.

    If United would sell DDG, no way he goes to Torino. He goes to Real Madrid.
  23. Apr 15, 2019 at 16:16

    Keefy18 Full Member

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    Jose and Ole are guilty of similar choices.
  24. Apr 15, 2019 at 16:17

    bond19821982 Full Member

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    Spot on. Not saying he was great or a huge success . He had a vision and he wanted to implement that. Despite the turgid football, we still made to top 4 first season and missed it only on GD next year. Where are we now? Do we even look like a team with a plan?

    With a right DOF he could have been a success with better players . Yes, its all assumptioms but he did try to implement some new ideas within the team.

    People rave about Pep but he also has the same blue print as that of LVG. If we had a Silva or Aguero it might have worked better.
  25. Apr 15, 2019 at 16:18

    el3mel Full Member

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    I can accept these when you don't have decent options, but Young as a striker when Rashford was playing the same game on the flank?
  26. Apr 15, 2019 at 16:21

    Keefy18 Full Member

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    Ole picked Young at CB, with Jones and possibly Bailly to choose from.

    Jose likewise in a bid to prove he was right done something similar.

    I'm not arguing LVG was right to do so but all our coaches have done daft things in recent years.
  27. Apr 15, 2019 at 16:28

    el3mel Full Member

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    Nothing will top this Spurs game for me. All these can be excused one way or another but not this because Rashford and Young were on the same pitch but he switched their position for no reason.

    It wasn't just this as well. Van Gaal was fecking up with the lineup and trying crap position changing whenever he had a full fit squad. Surprise but we only played well under him when we had injuries and he was forced to play a specific formation without testing his "ideas". Once he got his players back from injuries he started fecking up the lineup and we were back to being shite again.
  28. Apr 15, 2019 at 16:36

    Keefy18 Full Member

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    I started reading your post and the opening line had me agreeing but to then write off the likes of Rashford and Martial completely? Daft!

    There's a happy medium in your sentiments to be found here.

    At the point of winning the FA Cup and LVG's sacking and Jose impending arrival, we had 2 of world footballs hottest young talents in Rashford and Martial. The latter won the world young player of the year award for his efforts in his debut season. With the right coach taking over, or perhaps LVG staying for that final 3rd year, we might well have a genuine world class attacking player in Martial on our hands and possibly another with Rashford.

    Instead what happened? Jose phased out Martial almost completely. Lukaku played nearly the same amount of minutes last season as Martial did over Jose entire tenure at the club. He was clearly a young kid with huge potential and he ruined the kid those 2 years, we need to get him back on track now with Ole.

    The bold part is absolutely ridiculous, are you seriously telling me Jose was not at fault at all? It wasn't Jose's fault for falling out with everyone at the club and by that I mean even the backroom staff? Right through to the cleaning ladies and even the club receptionist! The man was pure poison, He has done this repeatedly at his last 3 clubs. Jose publicly slandered the club, its players, the board and its fans. He told them not to attend games, he undermined our history continually. Something many supporters aren't aware of that Jose done was to show up at the 50th anniversary of Munich in a feckin tracksuit! He was lectured and told to put on a club sports jacket with the club crest and the pics of him at the ceremony are grim, sulking like a petulant child.

    The man didn't care one single iota about our great club. It meant nothing to him what so ever.

    LVG on the other hand, he very much respected our club traditions and done his upmost to always keep that in mind. I agree the football was painful to watch but I'm fully convinced that if he had season 3 he would of added to our attack and tweaked it to be more entertaining.

    Wasn't a disaster at all, all those players were rightly sold.

    RVP was getting injured regularly again and hasn't done much of anything since he left.

    Rafael like wise was a sick note. He was a superb RB and there wasn't any doubt over his quality, just his ability to stay fit.

    Kagawa never settled to PL football, Ferguson misused him throughout and he never stepped up in reality.

    Nani, likewise went on to do nowt and hardly made us eat humble pie.

    The one we ballsed up was Zaha, that's about it.
  29. Apr 15, 2019 at 16:44

    Keefy18 Full Member

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    He finished 3rd with an utter pish Dutch side in the WC prior to joining us. That couldn't be replicated since his retirement, coincidence?

    He also won the Bundesliga double in in 2010 as you say and was only stopped doing the Treble by a certain Inter side led by none other than Jose Mourinho.

    I wouldn't exactly say he done nothing in the last decade or so.
  30. Apr 15, 2019 at 16:46

    dirkey Full Member

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    What am I revising exactly? I'm saying it was lucky dip. Because he fired players in who simply either weren't ready, or weren't good enough. Those guys should definitely not have played for the team at that point. If they hadn't, would they have amounted to anything, if brought in at a later date? Probably not. But, they weren't good enough. They shouldn't have been played. He wasn't able to identify talent which was good enough and ready. That's what I've repeatedly been saying, and there's no revisionism there.

    I mean, you're basically making my exact point. It was a scattergun, lucky dip approach. Fire a guy in and hope for the best. Might as well put up a banner that says "I am clueless with regards to evaluating player talent & ability. Exactly, you're making my point again about Keane (I'm writing my response as I read through each paragraph). How did he not know that Rashford was better than Keane? He seems them every day. That's exactly lucky dip. He goes to start Keane. Keane gets injured. Rashford comes in, does well, stays in. He was a clueless manager. Couldn't evaluate that Rashford was clearly better than Keane, and ready. How is it lucky dip? It's EXACTLY lucky dip.

    I never said he got lucky with the idea of playing kids. All I'm saying is that his approach was haphazard. He couldn't evaluate, so just fired loads of random ones in. One worked out. Yes, that's getting lucky. Ole is clearly more mindful, he's figuring out who is ready and bringing them in slowly.

    What players did he gets the best out of at United? Not too many to be honest.
  31. Apr 15, 2019 at 16:46

    Carl has permanently erect nipples

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    I'll look back on LVGs time with much more fondness than Jose's, that's for sure.

    Actually think we played really good stuff at times under van Gaal.
  32. Apr 15, 2019 at 16:56

    Kaglish10 New Member

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    But Young was actually a SS and played mostly as one at Aston villa before he moved to Manutd. What's wrong in deploying a SS in a striker role to see if he could score in the place of Rashford who was struggling? Wasn't Rooney also SS? Likewise Aguero at Atletico before making the switch to a striker role? We all don't know how Young had been used in training, considering Rooney was out injured and we only had Rashford as the only striker, apart from Martial who had already claimed the left wing role and and there was no use switching him around. Young had the experience of a striker role, albeit a SS role at Aston villa hence could have been considered as a second choice to have in the striker role and we don't even know how he had performed in that same role in training.

    This is actually getting ridiculous.
    His signing of young players such as Martial and Depay were also lucky too. Likewise his use of Blackett, James Reece, McNair in preseason games which continued in the EPL when he could have easily signed experienced central backs rather than bother himself with our unproven academy kids. It was all lucky dip.
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019 at 17:10
  33. Apr 15, 2019 at 16:57

    Keefy18 Full Member

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    TBF, He had extremely limited time. He arrived late at the club in the first season and then in the second season he was under immense pressure to get top 4 minimum, whilst trying to rebuild.

    I'm not sure "lucky dip" is quite fair to use, he did drop kids in and tell them go make a name for yourself. Hell, how many times have you read or heard supporters say the same, give them a chance and see if they take it or not. No point judging players only at youth level, you have to drop them into the senior side at some point and say OK kid, here's your chance.

    Some take it, some don't. Same way transfers work. No manager has a perfect record with either.

    LVG gave us Rashford and Martial. He provided us with arguably the best back up keeper in the league in Romero. Shaw is a very good left back and also bought by LVG. He also gave us Memphis but sadly he had a bad attitude and is ripping it up across Europe now in France and in the CL and for the national side.
  34. Apr 15, 2019 at 17:00

    buckooo1978 Full Member

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    a transfer policy is a 2 way thing - you could argue about the merits of selling any player right up to De Gea but the important thing is you replace players and improve the team

    do you think he improved the team with his replacements?

    He certainly didn't in my view hence the disaster

    also it was disastrous for the club in terms of the pathetic fees we recouped - there was also the issue of paying almost all Nani's wage for him to go to sporting whilst we relied on Januzaj, Rooney and Depay in attack
  35. Apr 15, 2019 at 17:03

    Roboc7 Full Member

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    The Keane/Rashford point is perfect example of LVG either being poorly advised or not being competent. I had no problem with him playing some of the youngsters but he was completely unaware of who was god enough and it was a total lottery.

    His coaching was well past its sell by date, his peak was long gone and his ideas of possession football/ pressing sounded fine but in reality had evolved to a point where he was completely out of date.

    In terms of transfers he shouldn’t have been given as much power as he was, he was completely unqualified at that point in his career and that’s why the transfers were all over the place.

    He may have had good intentions and ideas but wasn’t competent enough to implement them at that point in his career.
  36. Apr 15, 2019 at 17:04

    el3mel Full Member

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    Are you actually talking seriously about this Young part ? This is beyond giving excuses for a manager.
  37. Apr 15, 2019 at 17:13

    Keefy18 Full Member

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    Depends on how you look at it, I mean when we signed Morgan Schneiderlin and Bastian everyone was delighted.
    Likewise when we signed ADM and Falcao, our supporters were buzzing.

    Hindsight is a wonderful thing and its easy to say now after the fact they didn't deliver, but at that moment in time it made sense and very few of our supporters complained when the signings were announced.

    If we had kept RVP & Hernandez would we of had a need to sign Martial? Would Rashford of received any playing time at all? I doubt Rashford would of been in Jose's thought's had he not debuted already under LVG, so its a very likely outcome had LVG not moved players on and focused on youth elsewhere.

    Also the point on the fees received, Nani was resigned by Moyes not LVG. What he was paid like all players is at the boards discretion.
    I think we done OK with transfers actually during LVG's reign, when you consider all factors like wages, signing fees and fees received.

    Falcao & Bastian were experienced players worth the risk, he proved it a few years later with Monaco. PL was probably a bit much for him after his injuries though.
    ADM was a big investment, but we lost sod all on him in reality.
    Blind was a very good player I felt myself and Jose selling him was a bad decision. Part of that great Ajax team now raising eyebrows.

    It's kinda funny, the longer Jose was in the job here the more he relied upon LVG and SAF signing's. He was slowly dropping his own players and bringing back LVG players to the fold. But folks say it was a disaster? I've my doubts.
  38. Apr 15, 2019 at 17:16

    bond19821982 Full Member

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    How so? DDG is shit with the ball and his distribution is very poor. He identified the issue and wanted to fix it.
  39. Apr 15, 2019 at 17:17

    bond19821982 Full Member

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    Point stands . It wasn't a comparison with Hart on the ability . Its about what he wanted to get his tactics work.
  40. Apr 15, 2019 at 17:21

    dirkey Full Member

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    Because, looking at LVG's transfer history at United, he'd probably "identify" some amaaaazing ball playing keeper who would let in every 2nd shot. It's a dumb idea as the poster said. The main job of a keeper is to keep the ball out of the net. De Gea is one of the very best in the world at that. You don't let players like that go for 2nd rate talents who are better with the ball at their feet. Such a stupid idea.