VAR - Not the hero we want, the one we need

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by Pavl3n, Jun 18, 2017.

  1. Mar 9, 2019

    Josep Dowling Full Member

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    VAR will work. The biggest issue with it at the moment are pundits who have no idea how it’s meant to work then sit there saying ‘as footballers’ they are correct. Well you aren’t.

    I’ve said before the media are against VAR as it takes away their talking points for a week, so now they make VAR the talking point.

    Was the decision harsh? Probably. By the letter of the law in its current state is it a penalty? Yes. So I don’t know why there is so much controversy over the decision.
  2. Mar 9, 2019

    Andycoleno9 Full Member

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    Not forgiven but it is even now for me. Perisic handball in wc finals and now this. I am always saying that handball is handball (except when it is near body).
    @kouroux You must raise statue to Var. It is always on your side;)
  3. Mar 9, 2019

    kouroux 45k posts to finally achieve this tagline

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    It's doing its job, no statue needed :smirk:
  4. Mar 9, 2019

    Revan Assumptionman

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    It is not a group of people FFS. It is virtually everyone bar FA. Which is nothing new, until a few years ago reds in other countries were just bookings in England, and people complained that referees in Europe are too soft.

    There were similar pens given in World Cup and similar pens given in other countries.
  5. Mar 9, 2019

    wub1234 Full Member

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    Of course I'm not a PSG fan, I have no affiliation with Paris or PSG, and I'd hardly start glory supporting a club that is basically run by the state of Qatar!

    I'm happy United have gone through, I used to live in Manchester and have been to Old Trafford many times. I'm not a United fan, but I like to see them doing well.

    But it was an unjust decision, and the changing of the law is a big mistake. Remember, Rio Ferdinand said exactly the same things that I've said. I'll quote you exactly what he said:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...in-celebration-champions-league-a8812346.html

    I heard Jermaine Jenas on the radio, and he was, firstly, highly critical of the decision, secondly, highly critical of the change in the law, and, thirdly, highly critical of the fact that the law has been changed halfway through the season!

    And people keep talking about the body position...it doesn't matter that Kimpembe turned his back. That wasn't taken into consideration. With the directive that has been given, it's basically going to be a penalty every single time if the ball hits a hand or arm and it's protruding slightly. Even if the player is engaged in a natural act of movement, and clearly didn't deliberately intend for his arm to be stuck out in order to block the ball. Doesn't make any difference any more.

    So I really disagree with that because (a) it goes against the spirit of the law and the spirit of football. Handballs should be deliberate, now the directive is that they no longer need to be deliberate, (b) it puts defenders in an impossible position, where they either have to adopt an unnatural stance, or risk conceding a penalty having done nothing wrong, (c) players will exploit this. It's already a huge part of the modern game to try to nick a soft penalty. This is just going to ramp it up even further.

    At least until the end of the season, when they're going to review the handball law again, the law that doesn't apply to the PL, where they don't even have VAR.

    It's only in football where the authorities would actively change a law halfway through the season, change it so that it fundamentally changes the rules and goes against the spirit of the game, and fail to ensure that it's implemented uniformly across all professional competitions.
  6. Mar 9, 2019

    Red00012 Full Member

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    Justice as kempembe should have seen red at OT before scoring. The world works in mysterious ways:annoyed:
  7. Mar 9, 2019

    montpelier Full Member

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    It seems to me that we are moving towards any ball hitting any arm from a reasonable distance is a handball. And they want to make that the consistent basis of the decision-making.

    I don't believe that 'natural-ness of the silhouette' is going to be a serious consideration, tbh. They'll default to them all being penalties.

    For distance, this PSG one is just about OK, I suppose.

    I agree with most of what Wub says though meself. But I accept the validity of the other POV, just what you prefer to go with, isn't it?
  8. Mar 9, 2019

    2 man midfield Incestuous Modern Woman (Dumper!)

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    Saw this on a YouTube comment section

    “Karma, huh Kimpembe? Au ReVAR” :lol:
  9. Mar 9, 2019

    Anustart89 Full Member

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    Yeah. It might not be a perfect law but it's probably the easiest interpretation to apply consistently so that both teams know what's up. If you're only going to look at what the law says, ie deliberately handling, then you're expecting the refs to be mind-readers. That means that there has to be some other criteria to it and it seems from the video in that other thread about handling the ball that they've agreed upon a reasonable consensus which seems easy to apply and is consistent.
  10. Mar 9, 2019

    montpelier Full Member

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    Ah, they need 'unnatural silhouette' for the close range stuff, of course.

    Yes, I can't argue against that from the point of view that the original way of looking is causing problems. And they need clear & quickly applicable criteria for VAR arriving to look as well.
  11. Mar 9, 2019

    wub1234 Full Member

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    According to what I heard on the radio, that is exactly what's going to happen according to this briefing that the presenter had attended. If your arm is protruding slightly, and the ball hits it, then it will be a penalty. The commentator described the authorities as being resolute that this will not be changed.

    I don't think people realise that this is now going to come up all of the time. Not too much this season because it just applies to the Champions League, but when it starts to be part of domestic football as well then players are going to start trying to take advantage of this.

    There will come a point when late on in the game, you might as well try to hit someone's arm in the box and hope it's in a protruding position. And defenders are going to have to start putting their arms behind their back all of the time. Because if they get hit on the arm, regardless of what they're doing, they can't ever know with certainty that it won't be a penalty.

    Hopefully this won't go on too long before the authorities realise that it's a mistake. But it probably will.
  12. Mar 9, 2019

    wub1234 Full Member

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    It is consistent, but it's not in the spirit of the game. The new approach will mean that players engaging in natural acts of movement, who have not deliberately handled the ball, will concede penalties. That cannot be right, in my opinion.
  13. Mar 10, 2019

    Samid follows Pogue around, fixing his images

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    Meanwhile in Spain.

    [​IMG]
  14. Mar 10, 2019

    Zarlak my face causes global warming

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    Truth like rain don't give a feck who it falls on.
    The idea that referees fecking teams over with wrong decisions is better than the game getting called correctly because making sure a game is called properly 'takes the emotion out of it' I think is really stupid and doesn't pass the smell test.
  15. Mar 10, 2019

    SirAF Ageist

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    Agreed. I really like VAR, and as I’ve said before I think the wait for a big call just adds to the spectacle.
  16. Mar 10, 2019

    Mrs Smoker Full Member

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    :lol:

    How long did he wait?
  17. Mar 10, 2019

    Zlatan 7 Full Member

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    But there shouldn’t be doubt over big calls? It’s to rectify clear and obvious errors? Not build drama.
  18. Mar 10, 2019

    montpelier Full Member

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    Can we do something about this stupid offside rule with the VAR?

    The City goal yesterday - the rule is so stupid you can argue it both ways

    The Newcastle goal - the guy who scored had been stood 5 yards offside before getting the assist from a guy who was originally offside too

    Inferior teams are parking the bus because they can't move their team up the park - because the shit offside rule will just do for them.

    Next season, VAR will give the already superior teams a load more opportunities too. Mainly penalties by the looks of it. Is that all we want to see a shedload of goals being scored?
  19. Mar 10, 2019

    SirAF Ageist

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    The drama comes naturally when you are waiting for the ref to make the call, right? Like against PSG.
  20. Mar 10, 2019

    Zlatan 7 Full Member

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    I don’t think that’s what VAR is intended for though is it? it’s to clear up obvious errors. I totally disagreed wth the PSG shambles even if it did see us through.
  21. Mar 10, 2019

    montpelier Full Member

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    We should ignore 'clear & obvious error' - that's just an invention of a phrase to sell the concept
  22. Mar 10, 2019

    Hughie77 New Member

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    Var is to be introduced because of inept officials who call pens when no contact or little, miss handball or not the bottle to give them, because a player goes down in box it's not always a pen. Var is hopefully going to clear it up.. hahaha. We see
  23. Mar 10, 2019

    SirAF Ageist

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    See @montpelier’s post. VAR is perfectly fine right now, in my opinion.
  24. Mar 10, 2019

    mu4c_20le Full Member

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    Can VAR be used to overturn a ref's decision? Or at the very least, the VAR referee should be able to inform the match ref that he's about to make a daft decision.
  25. Mar 10, 2019

    Zlatan 7 Full Member

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    I think it just moves iffy decisions which could go either way to a guy in a room. That’s what’s building your drama, because you’re not fully sure of what the outcome will be. That’s not right in my opinion.

    I’m fully behind it for one or two replays obvious as feck something went on that shouldn’t but I’m not sure on the constant inclusion of it for subjective calls.
  26. Mar 10, 2019

    SirAF Ageist

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    The guy in the room doesn’t make the final call though - he just tells the ref that there’s something to look at.
  27. Mar 10, 2019

    Zlatan 7 Full Member

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    Not always
  28. Mar 10, 2019

    montpelier Full Member

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    I'm not either but I don't know what else you do with it.

    So easy not to refer stonewall penalties for instance. In order to stop those ones falling through the system, more incidents have to be looked at. Quite a lot more, possibly.
  29. Mar 10, 2019

    montpelier Full Member

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    This they ought to sort out.
  30. Mar 10, 2019

    Zarlak my face causes global warming

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    We want to see games where the calls are correct, and the result is fair and not because someone got shafted.
  31. Mar 11, 2019

    montpelier Full Member

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    I'm not quite sure we should do though. In a sense that what I'm arguing isn't entirely about VAR in itself.

    It's kind of about everything, the combination of all the changes we've seen in the last 15-20 years are making playing harder & harder for any inferior team in any given match. A lot of it is the money & the best players getting concentrated at the best clubs but there's also more yelow & red cards, less tackling, better playing surfaces, a farce offside rule that sets defences deeper for the poorer teams (if they've got any sense) & now we'll magnify a few of those with every chance of more penalties too - primarily for the stronger team.

    Your logically irrefutable point obviously wins any argument of fact - I'm just having a whinge.

    But sport is about two sides having a chance because of latitude in the rules & how you can cheat & get around them - someone getting turned over once in a while ought to be part of it too, in a way. It reflects the human condition/existence in a context that doesn't really matter. I getting to think we're taking too much of that away from football if we carry on with the trend of playing nice, in lovely conditions, with a few teams being hugely superior to the rest (if there run anything like well) - and the better sides constantly on the attack & not having that much trouble scoring. Or winning 1-0 vs teams that are playing a 4-6-0 formation & hardly leave the last 1/3 of their end.

    (And yes, I now await all the isolated specific examples that say 1 aspect of what I'm suggesting is wrong because 1 incident says everything has got better - it hasn't & I'm worried we might be going to far)

    And the fecking offside rule, what can you say, it's so shit that anyone can claim anything about it at any time. Players are standing around onside & then being put back onside by defenders trying to defend or people are saying that rebounds from the woodwork create a new phase of play as I saw the other week & I was wondering if they were right, :eek:. I'm not sure I if I know now, it might change next time.

    (the old offside looks equally silly now so I don't really know anything that helps - I'm not saying go back to that)

    If VAR could help with offside I could get to like it. Surely it isn't too much to ask that scorer & assister were vaguely onside when a goal is being scored. And unless they can operate an offside trap an inferior team is mainly playing in their own half for 80 minutes & it's getting really dull to watch imo.

    Oh. and all the big teams fiddling everything to suit themselves the most (VAR is that too, in a way). I think that enough stupid rant for now though, :).
  32. Mar 11, 2019

    Zlatan 7 Full Member

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    Good rant, I agree with it pretty much.
    Offside is fecked at the mo, that sterling goal was ridiculous, he’s stood offside ffs. They only reason the defender went to try and clear the ball was because sterling was offside.

    It highlights my main gripe with VAR. even when it’s used decisions can still go either way. I know VAR wasn’t used for that goal but I feel that decision could have gone either way even with VAR.
    it’s not VARs fault but kinda makes it pointless if there’s no clear right or wrong anyway.

    Like I’ve said already, absolutely clear and obvious I’m all for, but that doesn’t seem the case
  33. Mar 11, 2019

    711 Full Member Scout

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    I think I get your gist, that one of the great things about football is that the underdog can still win, maybe with a big helping of luck, but nonetheless the chance is there. It's why when pundits call for more goals in the game they are wrong, more goals would make matches more predictable, and less exciting.

    As for offside I'm much more annoyed by how often attacks are stopped for forwards wrongly called offside than the occasional goal given that should have been offside. Just me, maybe.
  34. Mar 11, 2019

    Bearded One Full Member

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    This is only this!
  35. Mar 13, 2019

    Prometheus Requested ban until Sep 22, 2019

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    This was given. It's completely pointless!
  36. Mar 13, 2019

    Mrs Smoker Full Member

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    Looks a foul.
  37. Mar 13, 2019

    NieThePiet New Member

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    from Suarez?
  38. Mar 13, 2019

    Mrs Smoker Full Member

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    No, the other guy.
  39. Mar 13, 2019

    Mrs Smoker Full Member

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    Any other angles?
  40. Mar 13, 2019

    Aloysius's Back 3 Full Member

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    This is why VAR needs to be done like every other game in the world.

    Give each club 2 goes each at max and they choose when they want to use the VAR.

    If the lyon defender was sure that he had not made a mistake there then he could use one of the VAR.

    Referee can't just use VAR when and if he wants - that is hardly any different to having a VAR especially when the Ref purposely denies to look at a questionable decision asked by all of the teams players (check Juventus yesterday)