Was there anything unique about the Nazi's actions ?

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by jackofalltrades, Feb 14, 2018.

  1. Feb 14, 2018
    #1

    jackofalltrades Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2012
    Messages:
    2,134
    On the "Did Hitler get away" ? thread, as on others, the evils of history have been mentioned and compared - slavery, slaughter, exploitation, bloody conquest, despoliation, despotism, racism, genocide and so on.

    My question is whether the Nazi regime stands alone in any way in what it did. I've always thought the unique thing about it was the programmed industrial slaughter of around 5 million of people with the intention of killing even more than they managed to.

    What do you think ?
  2. Feb 14, 2018
    #2

    SteveJ all-round nice guy, aka Uncle Joe Kardashian Scout

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Messages:
    54,442
    Location:
    The Land of Twits
    Aside from other things: the cynicism ('Arbeit macht frei'; 'Interesting work' etc etc).
  3. Feb 14, 2018
    #3

    Xeno Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2012
    Messages:
    4,061
    Location:
    Manchester
    Blitzkreig
  4. Feb 14, 2018
    #4

    GloryHunter07 Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2007
    Messages:
    10,856
    You kind of answered your own question
  5. Feb 14, 2018
    #5

    C3Pique Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2013
    Messages:
    2,290
    Location:
    Parts Unknown
    They had pretty snazzy attire for a murderous regime.
  6. Feb 14, 2018
    #6

    golden_blunder Site admin. Manchester United fan Staff

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2000
    Messages:
    85,404
    Location:
    Dublin, Ireland
    Did you know that the SS uniforms were designed by Hugo Boss?
  7. Feb 14, 2018
    #7

    C3Pique Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2013
    Messages:
    2,290
    Location:
    Parts Unknown
    I did - not that they mention that in the 'company history' bit of the Boss website.
  8. Feb 14, 2018
    #8

    Eriku Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2007
    Messages:
    12,695
    Location:
    Ørsta, Norway
    It being a modern western nation utilising the lessons of industrialisation to effectivise genocide, sure, it was different from preceding genocidal regimes.

    When it comes to the attitudes allowing it to happen, sadly social psychology's investigations have shown that humans are exceptionally good at going with the flow, even if the flow is pathological.
  9. Feb 14, 2018
    #9

    Balu Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2010
    Messages:
    15,022
    Location:
    Munich
    Supports:
    Bayern Munich
  10. Feb 14, 2018
    #10

    Green_Red Full Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2013
    Messages:
    6,249
    Did you know that Krupts designed and built the gas chambers? They also make barista machines. Thats diversification at its optimum!

    Fanta was invented by the coca cola company because when the war broke out they were forced to withdraw from the market because of PR in the US. They invented fanta specifically for Nazis... There are Fanta ads in magazines for the SS Youth. Im a fan! Of Fanta, not Nazis.
  11. Feb 14, 2018
    #11

    Mozza It’s Carrick you know

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2002
    Messages:
    23,183
    Location:
    Let Rooney be Rooney
    Nope
  12. Feb 14, 2018
    #12

    2cents Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2008
    Messages:
    8,289
    I'd say yes, unique for its time for the reasons you mention. Since then I'd say perhaps what happened in Cambodia comes closest, in terms of inflicting genocide on a section of the population that could only be held to be at war with you in the imagination.
  13. Feb 14, 2018
    #13

    sun_tzu The Art of Bore

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2010
    Messages:
    11,522
    Location:
    Pretend inferiority and encourage his arrogance.
    Didn't aeg build the fans in the big furnaces as well...
    In farness I guess any reasobably sized German company dating back the best part of a century probably had some dealing / association with the nazis
  14. Feb 14, 2018
    #14

    Adisa likes to take afvanadva wothowi doubt Scouse Lover

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2014
    Messages:
    30,132
    Location:
    Birmingham
    Imagine ordering the deaths of millions of people?
    Takes a level of psychosis I can't imagine.
  15. Feb 14, 2018
    #15

    berbatrick Full Member Scout

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Messages:
    10,994
    The only real comparison that I know of in terms of zeal for mass murder was Khmer Rouge.
  16. Feb 14, 2018
    #16

    VeevaVee despite the protests, wears Ugg boots

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2009
    Messages:
    26,544
    They must have had people overseeing the design of everything. The way they decked it all out was down to a tee. Looked both threatening and extravagant. Wankers.
  17. Feb 15, 2018
    #17

    carvajal Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2015
    Messages:
    7,335
    Location:
    Spain
    Supports:
    Real Madrid
    I would highlight the way in which the movement managed to attract and stun an entire country.
    The sense of unity and belonging to a group, fully adopting its rules and legends.
    Each imperialist movement has a great leader behind but I think it was the first time that the whole country acted as a cult.
  18. Feb 15, 2018
    #18

    Jericholyte2 Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2004
    Messages:
    438
    Currently auditing a politics course and the some very interesting conversations going on regarding this, comparing the Nazi occupations to colonialism, the question being, was the Nazi regime silly guilty of attempting colonialist ion within a first-world region?

    Think of the millions killed by the British, Dutch, French and Belgians, the significant difference being those killed by the Reich were first-world citizens.

    So to answer the OP, no I don't this so, not in terms of tactics, but unique purely in regards to scale (somewhat), efficiency and regions affected.
  19. Feb 15, 2018
    #19

    berbatrick Full Member Scout

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Messages:
    10,994
    I think many colonial deaths were side-products of greed, and some were for strategic reasons - to terrorise a population. But (in most cases, I guess US and Australia are partly the exceptions), the coloniser was interested in the natural resources, but also labour from the colonies. The Nazis going East were interested than clearing the land of its natives and settling Germans into the area - total genocide.
  20. Feb 15, 2018
    #20

    Silva Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2010
    Messages:
    29,013
    Location:
    Smoke crack like Isaac Asimov
    From all accounts by the survivors they were not seen as people.
  21. Feb 15, 2018
    #21

    The Firestarter Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2010
    Messages:
    6,932
    IBM sold tabulating machines to Nazi Germany. They even established a branch in Poland during the occupation.
  22. Feb 15, 2018
    #22

    Organic Potatoes Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2013
    Messages:
    8,382
    Location:
    Skillet
    Supports:
    Colorado Rapids
    The Mongols had a system of counting ears to ensure enough were killed, including places rich with culture and knowledge like current day China, India, and notably (as far as cities go) Baghdad.

    But I don’t see the value of this topic in this context.
  23. Feb 16, 2018
    #23

    C3Pique Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2013
    Messages:
    2,290
    Location:
    Parts Unknown
  24. Feb 16, 2018
    #24

    WackyWengerWorld Banned

    Joined:
    May 30, 2016
    Messages:
    1,940
    Supports:
    Arsenal
    Is there anyway they couldn't have known what the intent for that machine was?

    And you're wrong Fanta is disgusting
  25. Feb 16, 2018
    #25

    Tincanalley Turns player names into a crappy conversation

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2011
    Messages:
    5,577
    Location:
    Ireland
    Not unique. Human capacity for violence and cruelty seems endless. There were massacres in the Stone Age. But the Third Reich was unusually close to us, in the privileged and developed West. It had a sophisticated political system and all the trappings of a nation state at the heart of Europe. When the might of the oppressor is matched against their victims, when the ideology of the state is openly virulently racist; when the infrastructure built by taxpayers money is placed in the service of mechanised murder, yes, there was a very clear object lesson for modern westerners. You are not so different. You, too, must beware of your baser instincts. In that sense, for us, it could be called unique.
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2018
  26. Feb 16, 2018
    #26

    Green_Red Full Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2013
    Messages:
    6,249
    No doubt.
  27. Feb 16, 2018
    #27

    KirkDuyt Full Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2015
    Messages:
    6,784
    Location:
    Dutchland
    Supports:
    Feyenoord
    Efficiency.

    In both warfare and genocide.
  28. Feb 16, 2018
    #28

    buchansleftleg Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2014
    Messages:
    1,728
    Location:
    Manchester
    This efficiency is true on one level, but the resources diverted to this when war was ongoing seems vastly inefficient to me. Its a strange mix of efficiency and fanaticism , also a fervent desire to be recognised.

    The Khmer rouge / Rwanda genocides seem to have been a chaotic explosion of long held tensions between tribes / urban vs countryside etc. They seem to have always happened, with regular "wars" happening between tribes going back to neolithic times.

    It is said that Hitler often used a tactic of setting three people the same task and letting them compete to see who would do the most thorough job / complete it the quickest. He would lionise and promote the successful candidate, whilst the other 2 would be berated or be sent to the Eastern Front.

    However other studies do not seem to consider the Nazi regime to have thrived on "fear" at all. Pointing out that the vast majority of materials found in SS / Gestapo records came from ordinary members of the public "snitching" on their neighbours voluntarily. Perhaps the constant racist diatribes against jews, homosexuals, people with disabilities and the mentally ill, created a massive sense of entitlement / jealousy that manifested itself in a real zeal to inform on other people to a degree not seen before or since
  29. Feb 16, 2018
    #29

    Member 5225 Guest

    Agreed - apologies my understanding of the details on the subject is rather limited - but why didn’t they order them out of country OR face death (a bit like Idi Amin?)
  30. Feb 16, 2018
    #30

    Henrik Larsson Still logged in at RAWK (help!)

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2013
    Messages:
    4,243
    Location:
    Swashbucklington
    Somehow this thread made me curious about the limits of human cruelty. Eventually I stumbled upon the following, which also doesn't have much value in the context of this topic:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyd_massacre

    Not that this is a particularly inhumane event compared to millions of other atrocities that have taken places throughout the ages, just that it really reads a bit like a movie script.
  31. Feb 16, 2018
    #31

    swooshboy Band of Brothers

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2004
    Messages:
    9,845
    Location:
    Los Santos Baby
    Their branding was pretty incredible. Obviously not a popular or common case study, but they were certainly incredibly effective in that regard.
  32. Feb 16, 2018
    #32

    Jippy Sleeps with tramps, bangs jacuzzis, dirty shoes Staff

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Messages:
    41,564
    Location:
    Jet fuel doesn't melt steel beams
    Their propaganda posters were really good, as were the Soviets tbf.
  33. Feb 16, 2018
    #33

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2006
    Messages:
    96,393
    Location:
    "like a man in silk pyjamas shooting pigeons
    Jaysus. I knew they made nazi uniforms. Didn’t know they used “forced labourers” to do it.
  34. Feb 16, 2018
    #34

    Kasper Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2013
    Messages:
    2,079
    Supports:
    Hansa Rostock / Bradford City
    Almost all the (german) companies collaborating with the Nazis used forced labour. Best way to make profit after all. Shockingly not much about that is known outside of Germany today (or even within).
    All the famous car brands, VW, Audi, BMW (Quandt) but also a bit under the radar are Deutsche Bank, Bertelsmann, Oetker, Bayer, Krupp, Degussa, Siemens...
    Would probably be an interesting topic for an extra thread, as I'd be interested about non-german companies who collaborated with the Nazis, didn't know about the Fanta story for example.
  35. Feb 16, 2018
    #35

    Xcited Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2015
    Messages:
    406
    Their rise to power was unique. Using social factors or conditions to manipulate the public, and appeal to their needs to a degree or in a fashion never done otherwise.

    I think Hitler himself is the USP in question, there will never be another Hitler.
  36. Feb 16, 2018
    #36

    BBRBB Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2015
    Messages:
    2,684
    Supports:
    Paris Saint-Germain
    The planification, industrial process and scale of the nazi massacres was quite special.

    As westerners however the main thing is how those crimes are self-reflecting about our civilisation as they can't be attributed to "barbarians" and weren't swept under the carpet by the winning party of the war like in the colonial massacres or USSR.

    Some other cultures have less reasons to care about nazis and will have historical events that are closer to them defining the collective mind.
  37. Feb 16, 2018
    #37

    bleedred Full Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2011
    Messages:
    4,620
    Location:
    404
    Ford as well
  38. Feb 16, 2018
    #38

    bleedred Full Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2011
    Messages:
    4,620
    Location:
    404
    If I remember correct, I read somewhere that the initial plan of Nazis was to starve the Jews to death with a hunger plan and the reason they started setting up camps were that they were not dying soon enough for them of starvation!
  39. Feb 16, 2018
    #39

    Mciahel Goodman Worst Werewolf Player of All Times Staff

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2014
    Messages:
    29,016
    Their brand of propaganda was revolutionary. Mussolini started a militaristic strong man trend for the modernist dictator, but Hitler (with the help of Goebbels) took it to new levels. Many western politicians appropriated parts of Hitler's oratory and grand imagery (Trump being the latest example).

    Their mode of killing was unique because it was as if they were killing cattle. An industrialized killing machine on an enormous scale. Pol Pot killed millions, but not in the same way. The Japanese were notoriously cruel, but not with the same degree of planning. The Germans twisted enlightenment principles (many of which had come from Germany) in order to turn their state into a slaughterhouse for Jews and other undesirables. The closest parallel is probably the Soviet gulags, but that was different in its style. The Soviets sent people to work themselves to death in subzero conditions, or had them shot against a wall, or murdered after show trials. The Nazis on the other hand built killing factories with supply routes. They treated their targets as livestock, and that's what's unique. The corruption of civilized principals of industry in creating a nightmarish anti-civilization.
  40. Feb 16, 2018
    #40

    Tincanalley Turns player names into a crappy conversation

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2011
    Messages:
    5,577
    Location:
    Ireland
    Amazing read. Well done to the Maori, they were not to be messed with.