1. We've added a new Women's Team sub-forum to discuss all things related to the new United Women's Team.

    Also, the FCUoM forum has been closed due to inactivity, with its threads moved to the Football Forum. To discuss FCUoM and Salford City moving forward, please use this sticky thread.
    Dismiss Notice

Watching Lingard play live has changed my mind on him

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by shamans, Dec 4, 2017.

  1. Dec 4, 2017
    #1

    shamans 1 set of sheets, optimistic about chances of sex

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2010
    Messages:
    9,560
    Location:
    Just want to see Scholes hit a volley.
    I kept going on about how average he is and is hardly worth of being a squad player but I was completely wrong. I was at the game this Sunday. He is like a machine on the pitch. He is constantly finding the right spots to run into, pressing the right players and makes the correct passes. Obviously he is not (and probably wont ever be) our key player but he is an excellent player to have.

    His movement off the ball and reading of the game is actually very good. Anyone else had the same experience?
  2. Dec 4, 2017
    #2

    Marcelinho87 Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2010
    Messages:
    3,317
    Location:
    Barnsley
    This is the problem with watching football on TV.. You don't get to see the work a player does off the ball.

    Chicharito was the same, he was constantly buzzing around pulling the defences apart.
  3. Dec 4, 2017
    #3

    acnumber9 Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2006
    Messages:
    12,558
    You didn't need to be there live to see his movement. It's his best quality. He's a very smart player but he's let himself down with end product and being a bit soft. But it was always obvious why managers liked him.
  4. Dec 4, 2017
    #4

    DanNistelrooy Lineup Prediction & Last Man Standing winner 2017

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2006
    Messages:
    8,303
    Location:
    London
    He's a clever player and very useful in big games in a similar to way in which Park was for us back in the day with the high pressing and clever moment. He does lack a bit of quality in in the final third and with finishing for me (though admittedly he's been great recently in this regard). Against the smaller sides who sit back and are hard to break down, I'd probably look to other options in the squad. But he is definitely worthy of his place in the squad, especially on current form.
  5. Dec 4, 2017
    #5

    shamans 1 set of sheets, optimistic about chances of sex

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2010
    Messages:
    9,560
    Location:
    Just want to see Scholes hit a volley.
    Well unless there's a lingard cam or something you have to. It's not just his movement around the area of action (such as making himself available for the pass and all) but when the ball is nowhere near him. He is just buzzing around.

    He reminds me a lot of park in his usefulness.
  6. Dec 4, 2017
    #6

    NoPace Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2014
    Messages:
    4,747
    It's crazy how little of the field we see. It's legitimately impossible to judge the quality of runs by 9s and if deeper mids and defenders are missing those runs or not, which is a pretty big part of football.

    I played decent amateur football in Holland (where it really was almost all Ajax/barca 433) and half the drills we did were about the FB, W and wider CM playing 3 on 3 along the sideline and a ton of it came down to if the winger could get open either coming short or then turning and going over the top if the FB over pursued and that stuff is also largely lost by close in angles on tv.

    TLDR: I believe all claims about off ball stuff by anyone at a game
  7. Dec 4, 2017
    #7

    acnumber9 Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2006
    Messages:
    12,558
    Not really. Being there live allows you to see more but it was obvious to begin with.
  8. Dec 4, 2017
    #8

    Revaulx Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2014
    Messages:
    714
    Location:
    Saddleworth
    Yes he is, and an industrious one as well.

    I think people find this hard to acknowledge because he comes across as somewhat immature.
  9. Dec 4, 2017
    #9

    thegregster Harbinger of new information

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2009
    Messages:
    9,902
    Location:
    24 hours behind the transfer muppets
    He got a bad injury in the first game of LVG era which was really bad timing for him.
    He missed out on the best part of a season under a manager who gave youth a chance plus at the time LVG played 352 a lot.
  10. Dec 4, 2017
    #10

    EyeInTheSky Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2015
    Messages:
    8,500
    Location:
    On my sofa enjoying pineapple on its own
    For me, he is improving in a position that was never his optimum because of circumstance (players being injured or other positions being oversubscribed). For me, he is a completely different player when in the centre. In fact, I think that almost all his goals and good performances come from moving centrally or dribbling centrally.
  11. Dec 4, 2017
    #11

    shamans 1 set of sheets, optimistic about chances of sex

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2010
    Messages:
    9,560
    Location:
    Just want to see Scholes hit a volley.
    What do you mean "not really". Unless there's a lingard cam that I am not aware of it is impossible to see his complete movement from TV.
  12. Dec 4, 2017
    #12

    alanjohnson Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2016
    Messages:
    523
    Against Arsenal he had acre's of space. There are many games where he is completely irrelevant and disappears, contributes nothing because those teams have set out to defend well.
  13. Dec 4, 2017
    #13

    acnumber9 Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2006
    Messages:
    12,558
    You don't need to see every movement to know a player has good movement. If you do then you're not watching the game properly.
  14. Dec 4, 2017
    #14

    Ballache Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2004
    Messages:
    15,079
    Location:
    Stockholm/Beirut
    I fully agree, I remember thinking this when I watched Hernandez and Owen live. Their constant movement without the ball is not something you see on TV.
    Paul Scholes is another one, you truly understand how nobody could get near him.
    The best for me was watching Messi live, it's an experience and he looked like a grown man playing with children at times.
  15. Dec 4, 2017
    #15

    MyOnlySolskjaer Creator of Player Performance threads

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2014
    Messages:
    11,405
    Location:
    Player Performance Threads
    I had this with Carrick.
  16. Dec 4, 2017
    #16

    Zlatan 7 New Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2016
    Messages:
    1,109
    Supports:
    United
    Lingard cam wouldn't work either because then you wouldn't see what's going on in the rest of play. Not sure if it's Sky or BT but I've seen a red button cam option to view a different camera that shows the whole field, that's good if you can keep an eye out for it.

    On the whole though I agree with you, you can see a players movement a lot more being at the game, quite obvious really
  17. Dec 4, 2017
    #17

    Sylar Full Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2007
    Messages:
    20,160
    THink its Sky. Its a good view tbh (tactical view I think). But only good for analyzing not for really watching as a fan / spectator.

    Obviously being there live you see more of the action, but I agree with @acnumber9 - you dont have to be there live to know that one of the best things about lingard is his movement.
    in fact I think that was used as apoint to mock him when people were saying hes not useless. Sarcastically with the "oh yeh, but he has good movement right?" etc
  18. Dec 4, 2017
    #18

    mu4c_20le Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2013
    Messages:
    8,213
    Jesse always worked hard. The thing is that when he's not playing well and messing up simple passes, or failing to beat his man, then people would start to criticize him and say that all he has is movement and nothing else. But he played like a man on a mission at the Emirates and used his pace and engine to great effect on the counter. He was always good at using movement to drag defenders out of position but that alone wasn't good enough to justify a starting spot.
  19. Dec 4, 2017
    #19

    Kag Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2013
    Messages:
    13,592
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    You've done a spectacular job at arguing with somebody over a wider point you effectively agree with.
  20. Dec 4, 2017
    #20

    Raoul Admin Staff

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 1999
    Messages:
    97,574
    Location:
    California
    Good OP. For me, its always a bit suspicious when a player is being criticized by a vocal section of the fanbase whilst simultaneously one of the world's best football managers in Mourinho, seems to rate him highly enough to lock him into a nice long term contract and plays him fairly regularly. When that happens, I generally get the impression there is something important about the player that the fans aren't quite getting, but that those who manage/train/play alongside him are fully cognizant of.
  21. Dec 4, 2017
    #21

    Champagne Football Full Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2015
    Messages:
    1,307
    Location:
    El Beatle
    The 352 is perfect for him. He's not a playmaker or a winger but seems to have shades of a Lampard type player when he's on form. Hard worker who arrives into the box at the right time. Having Pogba, Martial and Young in scintillating form takes the pressure of Lingard also. When the team is not performing and he comes in and is expected to be the difference then that can overwhelm players on the fringes like that.
  22. Dec 4, 2017
    #22

    Drawfull Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2014
    Messages:
    733
    Location:
    FO4VR
    I don't know if Sky still have it in the UK, but the player cam used to be great years ago to see exactly what you're missing when wanting to follow a particular player. In Spain we have no interactivity like that, so I guess the UK is the same now but it was really helpful to see someone 'live' and be able to form a proper opinion against what the live feed delivers.
  23. Dec 4, 2017
    #23

    ghagua Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2012
    Messages:
    5,158
    Never had a problem with Lingard. He is a good option to have in the squad. At least he contributes when given a chance unlike another member of the squad.
  24. Dec 4, 2017
    #24

    FujiVice Full Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2013
    Messages:
    4,285
    Doesnt hide in his shell, unlike Mkhitaryan. He has a set of balls on him, which you have to admire. He may not have the upside of Martial or Rashford, but his workrate and heart is massive.
  25. Dec 4, 2017
    #25

    acnumber9 Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2006
    Messages:
    12,558
    I'm not the one arguing and talking about bloody Lingard cam. You can see enough on TV to know somebody has good movement. If stating that is arguing then you have a weird definition of the word.
  26. Dec 4, 2017
    #26

    JoaquinJoaquin Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2014
    Messages:
    6,046
    Location:
    Truth Nightclub
    I'm going to play devil's advocate here and say I have seen in the flesh Lingard hide away when he is having a bad game on more than one occasion.

    That being said I have also seen him play with his high tempo and energy and that is when he has his best games. In fact OT roar nearly every time he charges a defender down in support.

    He has been excellent the last few games and could be really important for us on Sunday. Long may it continue.
  27. Dec 4, 2017
    #27

    Kasper Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2013
    Messages:
    1,948
    Supports:
    Hansa Rostock / Bradford City
    There was a thread on here a while ago about which players you changed your opinion about when you saw them live.
    Was a good read.
  28. Dec 4, 2017
    #28

    VorZakone What would Kenny G do?

    Joined:
    May 9, 2013
    Messages:
    13,650
    I've watched 1 match live. Can't say I noticed a different perception. If anything I probably prefer TV.
  29. Dec 4, 2017
    #29

    shamans 1 set of sheets, optimistic about chances of sex

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2010
    Messages:
    9,560
    Location:
    Just want to see Scholes hit a volley.
    Well I and many others did not see the extent of his movement (along with a few other players) enough on TV. You say it's because we're not watching the game properly but in reality on TV you're just way more focussed on the ball so it's normal for that to happen.

    Again, it's not just his movement around the ball but when he's no where near it. It was eye opening for me and I'm sure many others may have had the same experience.


    Maybe this is also true. Since I've only seen him once I can't speak for him hiding. I guess what I can say is that his bar is much higher than what I thought. I had him down as a cleverly sort of player that just keeps it simple with his passes.
  30. Dec 4, 2017
    #30

    Rams extremely handsome, intelligent, gay and talented

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2000
    Messages:
    38,315
    Location:
    midtable anonymity
    Interesting thread this.

    Football has changed so much over the past 20-30 years. So have the fans, but not for the better. Despite so much footie on TV and the introduction of football simulations on game consoles, ironically the average fan seems to have become more ignorant imo. The average PlayStation brain washed fan of today has unrealistic expectations. It can get very frustrating for a fan posting on here, with more than 25 years of experience of actually playing the game, being told by some snotty nosed kid, who has hardly kicked a ball in anger in his life, what’s right and what’s wrong.
    Lingard is a very talented player. He plays in one of the most difficult positions, his positioning and movement off the ball are excellent and he’s almost as quick with the ball at his feet as without. But, because Lingard plays at such a pace it’s also far more difficult to control the ball or pass/shoot when you are moving at such pace. These are things you probably won’t realise if you don’t experience much live football other than a 5 a side match in the park. Lingard might be no Messi, but he’s still good enough to keep World class players like Mkhitaryan & Mata out of the side.
  31. Dec 4, 2017
    #31

    lysglimt Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2008
    Messages:
    6,659
    I am 99% certain that if Rashford had been where Lingard was when Pogba got the ball, we wouldn't have scored that 3 goal.
  32. Dec 4, 2017
    #32

    Brightonian Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2012
    Messages:
    11,958
    Location:
    Juanderlust
    This is interesting. All our good spells under LVG (ok, there were two good spells) were basically built around getting the hang of this on both sides of the pitch and then ruthlessly exploiting it over and over again. I remember it being really, really obvious during that six/seven game spell at the end of his first season, with Mata-Herrera-Valencia down one wing and Young-Fellaini-Blind down the other.
  33. Dec 4, 2017
    #33

    limerickcitykid There once was a kid from Toronto...

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2012
    Messages:
    9,764
    Location:
    East end / Oot and aboot
    What is the point of this? Here you go, a whole load of goals where Rashford has shown good movement and found space in the box.

  34. Dec 4, 2017
    #34

    ManuMou Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2017
    Messages:
    537
    He will be our “big game player” like how Fergie used Park, until it is broken. He is ahead of Mkhi Mata in these kinda games.

    He will start against City.
  35. Dec 4, 2017
    #35

    DannyCAFC Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2014
    Messages:
    1,379
    Supports:
    Charlton Athletic
    Same.

    Great movement, good ball-retention, terrific work-rate, quick, a good finisher and versatile.

    I still think he's over-paid, but probably no more than 6-7 others in United's squad, at the end of the day they're really all just fitting in to a wage structure that is much greater than teams in football so I guess squad player wages are going to reflect that and be high.

    Overall I still think United if they want to continue improving and reach another level need a more creative #10, but Lingard for the moment at least is pretty invaluable as a squad player. You need players with his mentality, one's who are gonna give 110% every time they do play and when they don't, aren't kicking up a fuss and instead still support their team-mates and work harder in training to make the next squad.

    Fair play as well because rather foolishly I'd pretty much written off his chances of making it at United when he was 22 and still out on loan in the Championship. For all the perceived showboating/sillyness that people don't seem to like (i.e. the dabbing, Snapchat's etc), he isn't the prima-donna you'd maybe think he is and he's worked his ass off to get where he is.
  36. Dec 4, 2017
    #36

    chromepaxos New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2015
    Messages:
    1
    I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion. I saw a bunch of Birmingham games while he was there and in every game you could just see that he was the class player on the pitch. He's head and shoulders above pretty much everyone in the Championship.
  37. Dec 4, 2017
    #37

    Josep Dowling Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2014
    Messages:
    1,228
    He has had two good games and now multiple threads have opened up going ‘see I told you so, he’s not that bad’.

    Let’s see if he can maintain some consistency first.
  38. Dec 4, 2017
    #38

    Maciek Known for "good moanings" not only in the morning

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2006
    Messages:
    11,318
    Location:
    Bełchatów, Poland
    Let's get back to this thread when he doesn't score in three games in a row. He'll be shite again.
  39. Dec 4, 2017
    #39

    Snow Somewhere down the lane, a licky boom boom down

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2007
    Messages:
    28,694
    Location:
    Reykjavík
    Sometimes the importance is deceived by personal notions (see Rooney) which some managers can't look beyond.
  40. Dec 4, 2017
    #40

    Macern SeARcHeS iMagEs oF fO0tbAlLeRs bAllSaCkS

    Joined:
    May 11, 2014
    Messages:
    10,023
    Location:
    Oslo
    He's the English Müller