WC All Stars Chain Draft final: harms vs Tuppet

Discussion in 'Draft Games Forum' started by Edgar Allan Pillow, Jun 9, 2018.

?

With players at indicated WC peak, who will win this match?

Poll closed Jun 10, 2018.
  1. Team harms

    39.4%
  2. team Tuppet

    60.6%
  1. Jun 9, 2018
    #1

    Edgar Allan Pillow Ero-Sennin

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    [​IMG] vs [​IMG]

    ........................................... TEAM HARMS ......................................................................................... TEAM TUPPET ...........................................


    TEAM HARMS

    Oliver Kahn — 2002 World Cup. Golden Ball winner and the best goalkeeper in the draft (and a much better keeper than Chilavert)
    Fabio Cannavaro — 2006 World Cup. Silver Ball and Ballon D'Or winner, the best defender in World Cup's history alongside Bobby Moore and Franco Baresi
    Elías Figueroa — 1974 World Cup. The best defender of 1974 tournament (according to fifa.com) and one of the best defenders in history right at his peak (he was named South American Player of the Year for 3 consecutive times from 1974 to 1976 — a record, by the way)
    Nilton Santos — 1958 World Cup. The best left back of 20th century (according to this) at his best World Cup, where he combined incredible defensive intelligence with refined attacking ability.
    Manuel Amoros — 1986 World Cup. Complete defender who handled the wing all by himself in France's carre magique team. The best defender of that tournament:
    [​IMG]
    Lothar Matthäus — 1990 World Cup. Silver Ball and Ballon d'Or winner. The best box-to-box midfielder of all time who produced arguably the greatest midfield performance in the history of World Cups. Faced Maradona in 2 consecutive World Cup finals, winning one

    Paulo Roberto Falcão — 1982 World Cup. Silver Ball winner. Probably my favourite ever midfielder he's had an incredible tournament, outshining even the Zico and Socrates from that brilliant vintage Brazil side.
    Sir Bobby Charlton — 1966 World Cup. One of my all-time favourites, he led England to an unlikely win against Eusebio's Portugal and Beckenbauer's Germany. Seeing as Beckenbauer is likely to start in midfield, I think this is a relevant quote. He'll drift to the left as was his natural game
    Mario Kempes — 1978 World Cup. Golden Ball and Golden Boot winner, he has the most freedom from my attacking four. Starting from the left he'll make those trademark runs of his to find himself on the end of Messi's lobbed passes.
    Gerd Müller — 1970 World Cup. Bronze Ball and Golden Boot winner. It was the finest striker's performance in World Cup's history in my opinion — and he'll thrive on the creativity of my midfield.
    Lionel Messi — 2014 World Cup. While it wasn't the peak club form Messi, he still created most chances and had more (much more!) successful dribbles than anyone else in that tournament. Now, imagine having Müller instead of Higuain upfront :drool:


    Points of discussion

    - My midfield dominance. However good Tuppet's midfield is, mine is better.
    - Matthäus is the worst possible opponent for Maradona (even in the 1986 final, when Matthäus wasn't at his peak yet, he significantly nullified Maradona's threat, and later he prevailed in 1990)
    - Charlton in 1966 has an upper hand against Beckenbauer (see the quote, and the game itself for that matter)
    - Kahn is a significant upgrade on Chilavert, and I don't need to big up the importance of having a top, top keeper on the United forum
    - Scirea from 1978 is fantastic but it's not a peak one, and Gerets is the weakest player on the pitch.

    FOOTAGE

    Lothar Matthäus — 1990 World Cup
    Bobby Charlton — semi-final against Portugal, final against West Germany
    Fabio Cannavaro — semi-final against Germany, final against France
    Elías Figueroa — against West Germany
    Nilton Santos — semi-final against France
    Manuel Amoros — against Brazil
    Gerd Müller — 1970 World Cup goals
    Oliver Kahn — 2002 World Cup
    Lionel Messi — 2014 World Cup, final against Germany
    Mario Kempes — against Poland, final against Netherlands


    TEAM TUPPET

    Tactics: 3-4-1-2
    Defensive line: Deep
    Fast tempo football with quick & direct counter attacking.


    We have added the final piece in our attack with 2002 Ronaldo. A proper striker version that would give a reference point in the box for Maradona & Pele and would finish any service that is given to him. Ronaldo also excelled in a similarly narrow and defensive Brazilian team leading his team to world cup victory with 8 goals in a great redemption story.

    Our tactic would be basically utilizing Maradona 1986 to his fullest by giving him complete freedom to run the game. His amazing passes go to two of the finest striker performers in world cup in Pele & Ronaldo. Both fast attackers with great finishing and flourished in similar counter attacking setup.

    Leaving Eusebio out has now allowed us to move to 1966 Beckenbauer in the midfield. In a brilliant performance that earned him part in all star team, his galloping runs to the box became a hallmark of West Germany's charge to the final. In total der Kaiser netted four goals, created nine goal-scoring chances, won 17 tackles and man marked Bobby Charlton in West Germany's campaign in one of the most well rounded midfield performance in the competition's history.

    He is partnered with Mauro Silva who was the defensive rock on which Brazil 1994 success was build upon. Together this midfield would provide the perfect platform upon for our attack.

    In Facchetti we have probably the greatest attacking left back in history and yet another player who was a master of counter attacking play. With Gerets on the other side they would provide solid attacking & defensive width for my team.

    Finally The defense is led by Scirea, who again played in a similarly pragmatic Itallian team in 1978. He is widely regarded as the one of the best defenders of all time He is supported by two brilliant world cup performers in Ruggeri & Schnellinger. This defense is backed by Chilavert 1998 in goalkeeper position. Another fantastic performance that saw him force his way into all star team.
  2. Jun 9, 2018
    #2

    Edgar Allan Pillow Ero-Sennin

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  3. Jun 9, 2018
    #3

    BeforeKeanetherewasRobson Full Member

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    Wow, some players there?!

    Good luck both. @Tuppet ... what's the plan for Charlton/who covers him?
  4. Jun 9, 2018
    #4

    Tuppet Banned

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    We are not doing man marking and both Backenbauer & Mauro Silva are playing defensively. But with the shape as it is from both team, Beckenbauer would be the one who would face Charlton most of the time while defending.
  5. Jun 9, 2018
    #5

    Moby Dick who hates the homeless

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    Tuppet's team. :lol:
  6. Jun 9, 2018
    #6

    idmanager Banned

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    Harms' obsession with playing Kempes there is pretty much like mine was with Sarosi. I like that. Feck what the voters think.

    But I think he should have gone for a diamond. I thought he would after he picked Falcao.

    You can't have a better midfield than Zito behind Matthaus and Falcao to nullify Diego in a imaginary context.

    Besides, it gives the attack a better shape. Can drop any one of Kempes/Charlton/Messi and it would still look class.
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2018
  7. Jun 9, 2018
    #7

    crappycraperson "Resident cricket authority" Scout

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    Tuppet's team is a piss take at this point now. I thought he had this draft won even before he got Pele, Kaiser and Ronaldo as his next 3 picks but now it is possibly the best draft team assembled on caf drafts ever.
  8. Jun 9, 2018
    #8

    harms Way Staff

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    Absolutely not. I'm not looking for a vote — it's obvious that there is only 1 winner here, but neither Gerets, Ruggeri (1990), Chilavert or Silva are good enough for that claim. And even Scirea isn't the peak one (which would be 1982 if we're talking about the World Cups).
  9. Jun 9, 2018
    #9

    crappycraperson "Resident cricket authority" Scout

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    In the context of this draft M.Silva 94 is fine, even for the final. Ruggeri 1990 was part of a great Argie defensive set up. In any case, his big names will carry even average or below average players in any match.
  10. Jun 9, 2018
    #10

    BeforeKeanetherewasRobson Full Member

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    Agree.

    Don't agree. Ultra GOATs don't (by themselves) make a great team, they make a team with great players.

    Still a very good side though.
  11. Jun 9, 2018
    #11

    oneniltothearsenal Caf's Milton Friedman (and Arse aficionado) Scout

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    This is a lot closer than I expected after the QFs. harms did a great job upgrading that team.

    Considering the draft theme, I think I rate Muller(70) + Kempes (78) > Pele(58) + Ronaldo (2002). Shame Tuppet couldn't get 1970 Pele in there as that really would have settled it for me. But now the match is closer imo

    I'll have to think harder than I thought I would before voting on this one
  12. Jun 9, 2018
    #12

    crappycraperson "Resident cricket authority" Scout

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    Ultra Goats are essential for great or all time great sides. All club or NT great teams of all time are testament to the same. Draft hipsters would rip to shred any side that dared play someone like Yaya Toure in CB position, yet Barca GOAT trio of Xavi, Iniesta and Messi made that a moot point in a CL final against a very very very good United side. In an effort to be ultra fair, draft regular voters have swung the pendullum too far to the point that legatimate GOATs of the game don't get the extra credit they deserve.

    It is not even as if Tuppet has tried to shoe horn his GOATs into the team here, they all fit perfectly fine.
  13. Jun 9, 2018
    #13

    oneniltothearsenal Caf's Milton Friedman (and Arse aficionado) Scout

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    I'd rate Chilavert 98 equal to Kahn 2002 myself.
  14. Jun 9, 2018
    #14

    oneniltothearsenal Caf's Milton Friedman (and Arse aficionado) Scout

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    But this is a World Cup single tournament draft. So I think its fair (not hipster) to rate Kempes 78 up there as he really was the decisive player in a World Cup winning side. Just like if anyone picked Paolo Rossi, this draft it's really fair to say Rossi 82 or Kempes was equivalent to Muller or Ronaldo in World Cup performances IMO
  15. Jun 9, 2018
    #15

    Gio 7 times Redcafe Draft Winner

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    It’s worth highlighting that half of Tuppet’s team probably aren’t playing their finest individual tournament. Shows how deep their international pedigrees are though that these players have multiple top class tournaments under their belts.
  16. Jun 9, 2018
    #16

    BeforeKeanetherewasRobson Full Member

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    You seem to be arguing against someone with an opinion of "GOATS make no/little difference". Not sure who that is but not me as that's not what I said.
  17. Jun 9, 2018
    #17

    Balu Full Member

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    It's actually just Maradona who really stands out compared to harms' team. Not sure you can argue that anyone else in Tuppet's team had a better tournament in the chosen year than his opponent.
  18. Jun 9, 2018
    #18

    harms Way Staff

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    I'd even argue that @TooSweet's team that he drafted for the first round of the new newbies draft is better :lol: (it's simply ridiculous though)

    Müller
    -----Baggio-Pele-----Nedved
    ---Falcao----Beckenbauer
    Lizarazu-Figueroa-Vierchowod-Thuram
    Kahn​
  19. Jun 9, 2018
    #19

    harms Way Staff

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    Great team, @Tuppet. This felt like the last Serie A draft — the same sense of an absolute inevitability since the QF reinforcements.

    You and @Šjor Bepo planned the best, I found myself quite restricted by the lesser amount of the European/Winners picks as the draft went on (the decision to substitute Conti was an especially tough one, he was one of those who I wanted to build the side around and I've only used him in 1 game!). Still glad that I've managed to create a wet dream of midfield, always wanted to have Charlton, Falcão and one of Rijkaard/Matthäus playing together.
  20. Jun 9, 2018
    #20

    Enigma_87 You know who

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  21. Jun 10, 2018
    #21

    green_smiley :lol:

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  22. Jun 10, 2018
    #22

    Ecstatic Full Member

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    Indeed, the chosen year of the WC has to matter in the analysis.
    - Ronaldo 2002 was a serial killer but Ronaldo 1998 was another story in terms of impact and pitch coverage.
    - Pele 1958 was still mild when I watch his performance against Sweden. Logical given his age.
    - ...

    So, yeah, the trio Maradona-Pele-Ronaldo is fantastic and unplayable as evidenced by their stats in the chosen competitions.

    On the other hand, harms is better equipped for the battle midfield simply because

    (1) I don't see the Brazilians here defend so much for different reasons.
    (2) Kempes 78 was a hard-working offensive player who tried to organize the game
    (3) Messi would stretch the opposing midfield

    I also think the positioning of Kempes 1978 below is more accurate.

    [​IMG]

    The proposed strategy (counter-attacking) by Tuppet is consistent
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2018
  23. Jun 10, 2018
    #23

    oneniltothearsenal Caf's Milton Friedman (and Arse aficionado) Scout

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    It might sound crazy to some but I actually think harms side just edges this one.

    66 Charlton is well established to have done the almost impossible and countered the influence of the 66 Kaiser. And Maradona has said Lothar is his toughest competitor. The third midfielder is Falcão > Silva. That combined with Pele being the 17 year old version, Scirea being the less imperious 78 version and Ruggeri being the 1990 version, I think harms just edges this in terms of experience + favorable matchups.

    If Tuppet was able to play all his players best WC versions I think he would have won. But with these versions, harms elegantly counters the tactic.

    @harms also sorry to hear about your cat, good pets are always part of the family
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2018
  24. Jun 10, 2018
    #24

    Tuppet Banned

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    Pele's age has really nothing to do with anything. That dude is the very definition of "good enough old enough" and what he did in that world cup (Winning silver ball, scoring twice in final and generally providing the cutting edge that was lacking from Brazil's attack to win them their first world cup) would remain equally impressive whether done at the age of 17 or 27. I feel just because my players played awesomely in other incarnations of world cup seems to be mentioned but the focus should only be in the world cup in question.

    Take Scirea for example, constantly hearing that his 82 world cup was peak, their is nothing to back it up from Italy's defensive play. Italy's defense actually conceded less goals in 78 than in 82. Scirea was in peak form coming on the back of 3 consecutive serie a wins. The only difference was that Paulo Rossi did not bail them out against Netherlands in 78 like he did against Brazil in 82. Which has nothing to do with Scirea's defending which was equally good (probably better in 78) in both versions of tournament.

    Same is true for Ruggeri, Argentinian team also conceded less goals in 90 than in 86 and Ruggeri was awesome in both version of the tournaments. Their winning the tournament on the back of their team's attacking performances should have no bearing on it.

    If we talk about Gerets being the weakest link than we have to consider Figueroa as well. Both were captain of the teams and generally the best defenders in their team. They both only played in group stages of the tournament and were similarly placed in a group with one team considered better than them. In case of Gerets he lead his team on the back of defensive display to top the group, while beating the current holder Argentina 1-0 and leading his team to next round. He did not even got out of the cup with a bad performance or anything he just got injured. Figueroa finished 3rd in his group and crashed out. But one is being considered GOAT while the other weakest link.

    Finally I like Harm's midfield its awesome but then again mine is pretty great too and I would personally won't take any of his midfielder over mine. I know Silva is not as flashy as other midfielders on the park but he has a task for which only Varela or Monti would be better equipped in this draft. And that is to facilitate the other two midfielders by playing a purely defensive role. Falcao played with another defensive midfielder in Cerezo while Matthaus played in front of three defenders and both had some assurance to move forward. But here they are both B2B midfielders and are facing Maradona from 1986. I don't think his midfield counter mine so well, I would have much preferred a purely defensive midfielder in there.
  25. Jun 10, 2018
    #25

    harms Way Staff

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    Figueroa is 1) a better player than Gerets in general 2) had one of the best individual performances marking Gerd Müller out of the game. Which earned him not only a place in the TotT (don't think that Gerets have one), but also South American Player of the Year award as well as being called the best defender of the tournament (not only of his team).

    An odd bump, seeing as it goes better than expected.
  26. Jun 10, 2018
    #26

    Edgar Allan Pillow Ero-Sennin

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    Tuppet is Zidane, back to back winner?
  27. Jun 10, 2018
    #27

    Tuppet Banned

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    1 is true but shouldn't matter, they are both being ranked on the world cup performances here.

    2 is interesting, before 1974 and after it until FIFA rebranded the award to mastercard all star award there always seem 11 players in all star XI but for 1974 at least in wikipedia its 12 players. With Figueroa only added with an asterisk to his name on the basis of the article you've linked in OP. Other sources also seem to suggest that Figueroa was not part of ToT e.g. this talksport link -

    [​IMG]

    Now that FIFA article does exist and it does say that he was named in all star xi but then everyone above seem more worthy than him to be in the all star xi for that world cup. As for South American player of the year award, he also won it in 73 & 75 so I don't think its clear cut that he won that 74 award based on the world cup. Finally not as impressive but Gerets did made 12th in Ballon D'or list that year.
  28. Jun 10, 2018
    #28

    harms Way Staff

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    No, he won it in 1974, 1975 and 1976. So it was his first one (hence the World Cup played a big part in it).

    Interesting stuff regarding the TotT. Always baffles me as there are sources that include Voronin in 1966, Conti in 1982 etc. (both should be included, imo)... but FIFA has got to be the golden standard.
  29. Jun 10, 2018
    #29

    Tuppet Banned

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  30. Jun 10, 2018
    #30

    2mufc0 Full Member

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  31. Jun 10, 2018
    #31

    harms Way Staff

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    Thanks, good game and congratulations @Tuppet

    Knew from the start that to win this I have to upgrade Charlton on one of Pele or Maradona, but really didn't want to do that. So a final appearance is already more than I expected.
  32. Jun 10, 2018
    #32

    BeforeKeanetherewasRobson Full Member

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    I wonder if in a couple of days he's going to post "I've decided that the Caf drafts need a new direction so I'm leaving Redcafe with immediate effect. I wish my successor all the best".
    (1) That team of the tournament is some team?!! It'd have been interesting (with a time machine) to have seen them play the Brazil 70 team.
    (2) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_World_Cup_awards#All-Star_Team
    The Wiki page for each WCs TotT seems to have 11 players each time then 12 players for 74 (including Figueroa). Odd?
    (3) Well done @Tuppet and @harms
    (4) That 74 TotT?! (worth saying twice)
  33. Jun 11, 2018
    #33

    Edgar Allan Pillow Ero-Sennin

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    Congrats @Tuppet. Brilliant initial drafting.

    Hard luck @harms that team would have won 8 drafts of 10. Wrong time wrong place. Great team.
  34. Jun 11, 2018
    #34

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    Well done mate. Missed the deadline and not entirely sure how I would have voted, but I'm glad to see it was a competitive match. It was always going to be brutally tough for you after Tuppet's superb reinforcing, but I felt you matched up against his main strangths well, and had an edge in certain areas, particularly full back and centre back, where Cannavaro is a proper GOAT contender in this draft and Nilton is alongside Brehme as best LB. I've said it all along but Kempes as a 5th round pick was potentially draft-winning, and he's the equal of 2002 Ronaldo here imo. It was only really Maradona that made me lean towards Tuppet.

    Congrats @Tuppet . I don't know what sort of voodoo you pull to strategise so well in these drafts, but you've effectively made a tit out of the rest of us by ending up with Pele, Maradona and Beckenbauer on the pitch and Eusebio/Zico on the fecking bench while starting this near the bottom of the drafting order :lol:. You fitted them in excellently too.
  35. Jun 11, 2018
    #35

    Pat_Mustard Full Member

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    A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
    Also, I'm very sorry to hear about your cat @harms . I still miss my first dog and she died 20 years ago, so I know how utterly shite it is losing a pet you love.
  36. Jun 11, 2018
    #36

    harms Way Staff

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    Thanks
  37. Jun 11, 2018
    #37

    Enigma_87 You know who

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    @harms condolences for your cat mate. Always tough to lose a pet, feels like part of the family.
  38. Aug 18, 2018
    #38

    heroearaucano New Member

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    [QUOTE = "Tuppet, publicación: 22641099, miembro: 85089"]
    Si hablamos de que Gerets es el eslabón más débil de lo que tenemos que considerar a Figueroa también. Ambos eran capitanes de los equipos y generalmente los mejores defensores de su equipo. Ambos jugaron solo en las etapas grupales del torneo y se colocaron de manera similar en un grupo con un equipo considerado mejor que ellos. En el caso de Gerets, lideró a su equipo en la parte posterior de la pantalla defensiva para encabezar el grupo, mientras derrotaba al titular actual Argentina 1-0 y lideraba a su equipo a la siguiente ronda. Ni siquiera salió de la copa con una mala actuación o cualquier cosa que acabara de lesionarse. Figueroa terminó tercero en su grupo y se estrelló. Pero uno está siendo considerado GOAT mientras que el otro es el eslabón más débil.
    [/ QUOTE]

    I think that your opinion about Figueroa is very poor, you did not make an effort to investigate.

    1).- Elias Figueroa was part of the team of stars of the 1974 World Cup and the source is the FIFA page.
    Source FIFA.COM:
    https://www.fifa.com/fifa-tournaments/players-coaches/people=49415/profile.html

    2).- Figueroa was twice the best player in the world

    Source:
    Emol.com (El Mercurio) the most important newspaper of national circulation in Chile:
    http://www.emol.com/noticias/deport... de los 100 mejores de la historia | Emol.com

    La Tercera, the second important newspaper of national circulation in Chile:
    https://web.archive.org/web/2013010...ellas-tras-jugar-un-sudamericano-sub-20.shtml

    Article sponsored by the "Diario As" of Spain, one of the two best sports newspapers in that country.
    https://chile.as.com/chile/2015/10/16/opinion/1445020749_038502.html

    He was also elected three times the best player in America, twice times the best player in the Brazilian league, three times the best player in the Uruguayan league (in the golden age of the Uruguayan league, the best league of the world at the time of Figueroa), considered the best foreigner who has played in Brazil and in Uruguay throughout its history.

    You must learn to investigate using journalistic sources.
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 18, 2018
  39. Aug 18, 2018
    #39

    BeforeKeanetherewasRobson Full Member

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    Quote....

    "I think that your opinion about Figueroa is very poor, you did not make an effort to investigate.

    1).- Elias Figueroa was part of the team of stars of the 1974 World Cup and the source is the FIFA page.
    Source FIFA.COM:
    https://www.fifa.com/fifa-tournaments/players-coaches/people=49415/profile.html
    2).- Figueroa was twice the best player in the world
    Source:
    Emol.com (El Mercurio) the most important newspaper of national circulation in Chile:
    http://www.emol.com/noticias/deport... de los 100 mejores de la historia | Emol.com
    La Tercera, the second important newspaper of national circulation in Chile:
    https://web.archive.org/web/2013010...ellas-tras-jugar-un-sudamericano-sub-20.shtml
    Article sponsored by the "Diario As" of Spain, one of the two best sports newspapers in that country.
    https://chile.as.com/chile/2015/10/16/opinion/1445020749_038502.html
    He was also elected three times the best player in America, twice times the best player in the Brazilian league, three times the best player in the Uruguayan league (in the golden age of the Uruguayan league, the best league of the world at the time of Figueroa), considered the best foreigner who has played in Brazil and in Uruguay throughout its history.

    You must learn to investigate using journalistic sources".[/QUOTE]

    heroearaucano .That's some first post.

    So @Tuppet , do you do any research for these games or are you just wildly winging it?

    ;)
  40. Aug 18, 2018
    #40

    Moby Dick who hates the homeless

    Joined:
    May 20, 2011
    Messages:
    33,555
    Location:
    Nicki Minaj's Secret Bedroom
    Hero! Nice to see you in these parts son. Been ages since I've last read your draft related stuff on xtratime! :D

    Is the rest of the draft army joining in as well?