Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Plechazunga, May 7, 2012.
Absolutely, I don't think anyone can deny we through it away against Everton.
I think my point has been misunderstood, I probably haven't articulated it well. I'm not saying we always will beat Wigan. Or 18 other teams in the league. But when we don't that is failure on our part. Failure is inevitable from time to time. Ideally not when we are closing in on the league, but at that point we had a cushion so it is somewhat understandable. But failure will happen.
But not beating Wigan IS failure. We are better than them, their squad must be worth something similar to our bench, it doesn't matter how they are playing, we should beat them. We didn't and we only have ourselves to blame.
The Blackburn game was a killer, yes, but I think the Wigan/Everton games were worse games to lose/draw. Normally, a draw to Evertone is acceptable, but its the manner in which we drew. We had plenty of time to recover from that Balckburn game, and we did, but losing to Wigan and drawing to Everton were worse in my opinion.
Think he's been forced to, to be honest!
Perhaps some players thought the job was done and then the loss at Wigan started doubts and the collapse against Everton was shattering. Team psychology is a hard thing to understand and we did not seem to have the willingness to really take it to City although team selection did not help. I think we had a great run and unfortunately hit a bad patch at just the wrong time.
We can win the league every year, it's not likely but it's possible.
The hope that we could still win if a miracle happens is worse than losing by a decent margin. It's been a weird season.
I like that Bobby Robson quote, thanks for posting. Think I read it in his book but worth being reminded.
but then I remember the games like Norwich (A) or Chelsea (A) and think that hadn't it been Everton/Wigan it would have been one of those. also, City's games v. Tottenham (H), Sunderland (H) should have ended differently. it just wasn't meant to be this year. I'm just pissed with our preformance v. City (A). I'd rather we lost 2-0 or 3-0, but played some attacking football. nevertheless, can't way for the next season to come, it will be exciting to see all the young players plus a couple of signings (fingers crossed ) with the experienced ones. as someone said, Jones, Cleverly, De Gea... will be a year older and more experienced ones, and I believe we'll have a frightening squad
It's not the fact that we didn't win the league that annoys me. it's the fact that we were 8 points clear and threw it away with some appalling performances, it's how awful we were in Euope, TWICE! It's how poor we were in the domestic cups, it's how Fergie didn't address our quite woeful midfield and we were forced to bring Scholes out of retirement.
I don't base our failings this season on the lack of trophies, it's the manner we've gone about doing so that pisses me right off.
I'm going to devote the rest of my life to following you round the internet checking that every time you use the verb 'can' it denotes something that is technically possible, however unlikely.
Can accept the Wigan result considering there's always some odd result near the end of the season. Against Everton though, that was the real killer. The Blackburn match, while it counts, had far less effect on our title chances than that Everton match. After the stumble at Wigan we regrouped and rightly dismissed Villa. Everton was always going to be tough especially after losing their semi against Liverpool and the nature of Moyes' team so complacency shouldn't have been a factor. We got in front 3-1 they got it back to 3-2 and we responded to have a 4-2 lead with 10 minute left. There's no excuse for us collapsing then. But we did and so lost what momentum we'd have had going into the City match and also lost our safety net as well as them hammering Norwich meant GD wasn't in our favour. Our calamitous defending against Everton saw us going negative and in the end we couldn't manage to muster up any decent threat going forward against City and using rubbish team selection and tactics.
Sounds like bottling it to me. If the positions were reversed and it was City that did that we'd have no problems saying they threw it away.
As others alluded to, I think what we saw at the beginning of the season was what that freshness can bring you. Obviously it came with its downsides but still and yet, it showed what our team can potentially reach and hopefully do it on a consistent basis.
I agree we do need to freshen up just a bit. Our squad combination of youth and experience isn't quite right. There's just that slight gap in the middle with a couple of our older player tailing off and that's made all the difference.
This post just shows that you're spoilt. Did you think we were going to get to Barca's level in a year? If you think so then you must be dreaming. It's what Fergie's aiming to build as his last team.
Obviously we've done poor in the competitions this season but these do happen. I'm glad that we can at least enjoy this kind of opportunity year in, year out with some success. Do I expect better from what we've seen? Of course, if you're going to be so critical of the team this season, maybe you need to take into account where we're going or at least trying to go. It's shameful putting in limp performances in Europe but what's done is done. We're better off learning from our mistakes instead of dwelling on it.
If you dont think it's troubled me, then you're wrong. At the same time, you cant take this shit for granted. I'm trying to enjoy each game that we have under SAF's reign because it probably won't get any better than what he's given us over the years.
When we won the CL in 2008, we had a team that was in peak form. Ever since then, we've been close but not quite good enough to get over the hurdle. Let alone having to deal with a one-of-a-kind Barca squad that is seemingly experiencing a similar type of misfortune. Even they are finding it hard to continue succeeding as they have been over the past few years.
Just as in life, in football, you're not guaranteed anything. You can have all the resources needed to succeed but still not succeed. Let's face it. We've not been good enough to even warrant a serious CL challenge but I can deal with that knowing that next season (barring any injury crisis), we'll be ready. Let's not get so focused on the prize that we forget to enjoy what brought us to love this sport in the first place.
I'm going to follow you round the internet checking that every time you use the word 'devote' you mean you'll make one remark and then never give it another thought.
what are you on about?
kietotheworld's post made perfect sense (although I'd disagree with the bit about Ciddy from a PL perspective) Because we were aiming to deal with Barcelona's level of excellence (according to SAF) and the fact that we actually went backwards and recognizing such, does not make him "spoilt". Nobody is suggesting we should be able to reproduce Barca's passing "overnight" but they are not untouchable as has been shown by several sides this season. I think you'll find a lot of reds a bit annoyed at our late PL capitulation and non-show in Europe. Yes, we did have a horrendous injury list to contend with but that wasn't the reason for a horrible collapse after the hard work had been done. A few of our players need the complacency or switching-off knocking out of them. Happens too often - sometimes we get away with it, sometimes not but it's not something you normally associate with United and is only a matter of reasonable application or discipline.
I guess it is debatable whether we went backwards year on year.
Yes: defenestration from all the cups. Utterly abject in Europe.
No: Points amassed and goals scored in the league suggests we did better this year than last.
For me we have gone backwards. But you can make the case either way, it isnt necessarily clear cut. Yet even so, it is too early to conclude that our backwards step is a long term problem. Sometimes you have to take a step back in order to move forward when overcoming an obstacle.
Precisely the point I was making earlier in the thread.
I'm baffled as to why people continue to say we bottled it, they clearly don't know what that means. What we did was the opposite, we thought we were home and hosed.
Complacent against Wigan and Everton.
Bottled it against City?
I agree with you BTW. And I am not sure you can say we bottled it against City. We came up short because we were short. But I think you can make the case we bottled it in the way we approached the game. When you tacitly concede your inferiority before kickoff in the team you put out and your approach to the game. You could make the case SAF bottled it there.
I don't see how we bottled it against City. They were just better than us in both games. No surprise considering their first XI's were better in both games.
We do that quite often in big games though, since more often than not we set up to counter whatever the team we're facing are set-up to do. We change system to match up against other big teams usual system, they never do likewise for us. It's how we've always approached the big ties in the league.
I understand entirely why we set-up the way we did, we were away from home at a club who hadn't been beaten at home in the league all season. We went there saying we were going for a win, when every man and his dog knew we'd happily settle for a draw. But for a centre half losing his man we may well have pinched that draw, and this thread doesn't exist. I don't think we bottled the City game, I think we went for a draw because realistically, it would have won us the title, and they were simply better than us.
But we didn't even have an attack on goal! I can't remember the last time we were so toothless
Yes, which is why I said City were better than us. Not having a shot on goal doesn't mean it was a bottle job, it means we were shit. You can be shit without losing your bottle.
I don't think we did lose our bottle, I just think we weren't very good. And the team selection was terrible
I agree with Erica.
That is a different debate though, really. How we approached that game, the rights and wrongs of it. Did we bottle it? I dont know, I dont much care either, really - the word you attach to what happened. I agree the main issue has been complacency, that is where the title challenge foundered, (complacency and the fact that man for man they were a better team, so putting the 8 point gap aside, it is fair enough they won it). But the way we approached the game against City IMO was wrong. And I dont buy into the "we were one slip of concentration away from doing it" argument either. If they hadnt scored when they did then they would have turned the screws more in the second half and as time went on, they would have come for us. As it was they got their goal and then were happy to protect it, and we showed a lack of ambition in trying to overturn it.
Not saying we should have been completely gung ho, but we could afford to be more positive than that. Just simply the addition of Valencia on the right, for me, would have been enough. He is quite solid defensively, and has been our best outlet in attack as well, this season. So for me it defies belief he was left out. It makes no sense to me.
But anyway, I cant be arsed to go over this again now, it is gone.
Where have I said different?
Did I say you said different?
You're absolutely right about Valencia , Simon. Even my husband ( an Evertonian ) couldn't fathom why he wasn't picked from the off. Stupid stupid stupid decision
I agree entirely, I wouldn't have had Park anywhere near the teamsheet, but then, I wouldn't have Park anywhere near any teamsheet, ever.
I don't think we bottled it though, at any point. We thought we were home and hosed and lost concentration against a Wigan side fighting for their lives and bang on form, and a very decent Everton side, and against City we made mistakes in set-up/team selection, and then played like shit to compound it all.
Just my take on it mind, I just can't see how we can be accused of losing our bottle, I don't think we lost our nerve or shit the pants when the pressure was on, I think we thought we had it in the bag and took our eye off the ball.
City 2 - 2 QPR
Sunderland 0 - 1 United.
Haha, we can dream!
No, I just thought you were disagreeing with me and suggesting we were of two different opinions.
This is the essence of what we are debating here and I agree with it entirely.
That's ok, I think we're all a bit upset still. I know I am
I'm more disappointed than upset. It's hard to watch those bitter fucks probably win it, and I really feel for United fans in Manchester who will get it far rougher from City acquaintances than I will. In that respect, it would be worse the Kop Twats winning it, as far as having to face them and listen to them is concerned, than the bitters, from a personal perspective.
That said, it's definitely not nice having our local rivals win it.
I am however, massively excited about next season. This season was a transition season as far as I was concerned, I'd have been happy to see us competitive. I think we'll grow from this and our young players will be much stronger for the experience.
No, I didn't think we were going to get to Barca's level in a year, don't be stupid, what I wanted was for us to make strides towards their level. Instead we went backwards. I have been hearing about how this United side is in transition and Ferguson is building a new great team for 3 years now, I fear the reality is we're just in decline.
It's not spoilt to expect us to do better in Europe, to improve, we have a great manager at one of the biggest and wealthiest clubs in the world who has been in the job for well over 20 years, if you can't expect better than dual humiliation in the two European Competitions (not to mention the domestic cups) then it begs the question of when you can. I think we should have higher standards than just being grateful to be in the Champions League, because you can bet Barcelona and Real Madrid do. If CL qualification is seen as some sort of achievement and we're constantly being told we're in transition then we should change our name to Arsenal.
Why are you so confident that next season we'll be ready? I think that's very much dependent on the transfer strategy the club uses. Also, we're always highly likely to have injury crises when we rely on the likes of Ferdinand, Cleverley, Fletcher, Anderson and the Da Silvas. You can't really use it as an excuse, taking into account a player's proneness to injury is a big part of squad management.
Well you're right, there's a huge part of me disappointed as well. The upset in me is it's just so not United. I remember clawing back a huge deficit in 96 , it's the way we just seem to have folded this year
As I said in my post, of course I expected us to do better this season. I'm annoyed as well. I think we could reach barca's level but part of that has been hindered by city's rise. Imagine where we'd be if we actually got the player we wanted this past summer (Nasri). I dont think we're that far off from where we need to be but what is clear is that this side needs to be freshened up a bit. I'm fairly confident that Fergie will make the right decisions this summer because it's crucial to how we will be in the coming seasons.
As far as aiming to match Barca's excellence, when Fergie said that, I knew he meant long-term. If you were expecting to see it right away, then I think you might have missed his point. That doesn't excuse our exits in europe or our dismal performances in the cup competitions or our recent collapse. The circumstances this season have left us with a strange squad composition and as I said earlier, Fergie knows he needs to put that right this summer.
I'm not saying that I dont expect us to do better. We should. At the same time, I recognize that these things can happen, no matter how good you are and we've let ourselves down. I think you're misunderstand what I'm saying.
With the level we've raised ourselves to, I expect us to do well in these competitions. I think this is a season where we can actually say we are in transition. I mean just look at our squad. It's been a disappointing season but there have been some positives as well.
The reason I think we'll be ready is that as others have outlined, we cant rely on Fletcher coming back due to his illness, Giggs and Scholes due to age, Anderson due to his injury troubles and Tom being relatively injury-free. I dont see how Fergie can ignore this and not say we have some things to address. In fact, he's already said it. Time will tell if we've brought in the right players.
Considering your point at the beginning of your post, I think these strides you've wanted are a bit too much considering what has taken place this season. I didnt think it was going to happen right away and I thought this season, we'd at least show that we're making gradual strides to get there.
We have the makings of a good team and one that I think can only get better. They will have learned from these disappointments and I expect them to be better for it. What we need this summer is not a massive overhaul of the squad but to sprinkle in the missing pieces that will allow us to make those strides a lot better than we have this season. Getting dumped out of CL and EL sucked and definitely wasn't something I dont think any of us really saw coming. Letting an 8 point lead slip like we have done is even more worrying in my eyes. That's not something Fergie can ignore and part of why I think he will make sure that we strengthen the squad this summer. Although I admit, it could be another disappointing transfer season but whatever the case, I just hope we put things right.
I don't accept that this is thing that just happens, we played 10 games in Europe this season, and we didn't play well in any of them, that's a reflection of our quality, it's not just some sort of fluke we can dismiss as not meaning anything.
Ferguson relied on Fletcher coming back last season despite his illness, he relied on Anderson, Giggs, Gibson despite his profound lack of talent, and Cleverley who had never started a League game for us and was known to be injured. I don't share your confidence that he's going to address this because he didn't last season, despite ample opportunity.
Forget strides, I'd be happy with ambling in their general direction, but it's not happening. Let's not forget, the bar wasn't set in 2011, it was set in 2009, and we've been falling further back ever since, the European performances were a symptom of that. I don't understand your confidence that we're going to buck the trend, we're totally reliant on a player in his late 30s and the problems we have now are exactly the same as the problems we had last season.
We do require strengthening, and call it "sprinking in the missing pieces" or an overhaul, but our midfield is a parade of the elderley, crocks, wingers, a playboy and Cleverley, while there are serious question marks over our full-backs, most of whom aren't actually full-backs. These are things which need to be addressed, quickly, unless the plan to overtake Barcelona is based on waiting for Xavi, Iniesta, Alves and Puyol to retire. If they're not addressed then by the time our players with potential actually fulfil it and may be at that level then they're going to be held back by the players in their mid 30s and early 40s.
Then I guess that's the way you choose to see things kie. Your posts these days suggest you have a more glass is half-empty type perspective versus half-full.
There have been both positives and negatives this season. Up to you how you interpret them
I'm just depressed. More so than I was in 1992, I think!
I think back to the community shield, the blistering start to the season and how promising our young new dynamic team looked. Now I'm just in a funk after what's happened. Maybe this time I don't believe we're going to get any better. I need to snap out of it.
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