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We Have More Serious Issues Than Tactics

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by GM K, Feb 22, 2018.

  1. Feb 22, 2018
    #1

    GM K Full Member

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    Many people point to tactics as our problem but while I agree work needs to be done to improve the team tactically, we seem to have issues that are so fundamental, I struggle to connect them to tactics.

    We don't control the ball well; we don't keep the ball well; we hardly string passes together for 2 minutes; we hoof the ball out from defence and when we don't and we are pressed, we lose it; we make faulty passes; our attackers make bad decisions etc.

    I am not a negative fan. I actually believe we are making some progress but not well enough. But do we have a serious problem of talent or mentality in the squad? Or is Jose entirely to blame for this? I still remain in support of him but is he missing it in training in this regard?
  2. Feb 22, 2018
    #2

    Greck Full Member

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    Everything you mentioned is part of attacking tactics. Tactics refer to more than just formations.
  3. Feb 22, 2018
    #3

    roonster09 Full Member

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    I would blame Jose for lot of these. Players we signed were very good on the ball before we signed and now all of a sudden they look for a route 1.
  4. Feb 22, 2018
    #4

    mark_a Full Member

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    Corners. Our corners are embarrassing. You're meant to think "Great we've got a corner" but ours are mostly so poor, little advantage to us at all. Short corners going nowhere, not beating first man or too long. At least we mix it up!

    If I ran a kids team I'd drill them to make more use of them than that.

    That's just one element, but we're a top level team (or meant to be) what's going on.

    Other key issue is modern players, too distracted by money and trappings. But doesn't that affect all teams you say? Well, yes it does (see England, no-one's arsed to play, they're either too scared to mess up due to the press or just not bothered) but I think it affects us quite a bit as at United they have to deal with a lot more pressure from the press than they do elsewhere. There's nowhere to hide. Which means players need to REALLY want to work, and work through bad patches etc.
  5. Feb 22, 2018
    #5

    charlenefan Far less insightful than the other Charley

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    Name names if you're going to produce statements like that. The only player I've seen a serious regression in terms of the ball at their feet is De Gea and I'm not sure how much coaching Mourinho does with the keepers, the likes of Smalling have always been poor
  6. Feb 22, 2018
    #6

    Harold_Giles Full Member

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    A good way to start solving some of our problems would be getting in defenders who are better on the ball

    Lukaku's hold up play is also starting to get on my nerves, and IMO he doesn't win as many aerial battles as someone his size should be.
  7. Feb 22, 2018
    #7

    Raees Boing Boing Baggies

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    When you've got guys like Pogba and Sanchez looking like donkeys at times, then you know it is a coaching and tactical issue. The team just doesn't look at the races 90% of the time.

    How often would you say we really play well where we totally dominate the opposition from the first minute from the last and blow them away with breathtaking football.

    Funnily enough the same posters who threw LVG under the bus seem utterly oblivious to the fact, we are pretty much seeing the same sort of football under Jose.. albeit the results are better and we're more efficient in front of goal.
  8. Feb 22, 2018
    #8

    roonster09 Full Member

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    Herrera - He was part of the team that destroyed us at Old Trafford and he was at the heart of that midfield. Now he plays only safe passes or hoof aimlessly.

    Pogba - Won't say he has regressed but he isn't used at his best.

    Sanchez - Playing for Arsenal, he looked so dangerous. Now only thing he does is cut back and play crossfield balls.

    Root cause for all the problems is tactics and lack of movement.
  9. Feb 22, 2018
    #9

    charlenefan Far less insightful than the other Charley

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    So our player of the year under Jose last season and one who's barely featured at all this season and Sanchez who's been here 5 minutes are your evidence of players regressing on the ball under Jose?
  10. Feb 22, 2018
    #10

    Rifer Full Member

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    Selection of tactics, assigned roles and formation, this relationship is rational, because of our players (first hint is our CBs situation), so no problems at that.

    First problem: Inconsistencies, in performing and following instructions eg. the Maguire goal and Spurs. Many of our players are so frustratingly inconsistent, namely the one that make us top team with their quality; Pogba, Rashford, Lukaku, Martial, Herrera, etc to name a few. Mata and Lingard are playing like what they always do (Lingard's Lingod form is once in a blue moon) so can't expect much from them. Lukaku is still adapting to become a striker that can lead our line. Sanchez is still gelling, yet few games and already a constant threat full of efforts. Realize how many of these are players in attacks, thus it explain our struggles in attacking this season.

    Second problem: Counter-attacks and Attacking when under pressure, relating with the first prob, fail again and again. We have to play "contain" defensive tactic anyway so need good counter attacks, or attacking when we're under pressure from opponent's high pressing. Transition from defense to attack is not quick, and if attempted, often not successful and lose posession, why? relating with all problems, and especially this one just below.

    Third problem: Missing that one special midfielder, that can control tempo of games, the orchestrator, the genuine playmaker eg. Carrick. Should have a very good accurate feet, wide range of pass and know what kind of passes to make intelligently. Plus, most importantly, cool composure when under pressure. Also this player links defense to attacks very well, in whatever rhythm according to situation, and often always available to receive passes from the defenders, connecting it to attacks, and thereby initiating it upfield. Top teams have this kind of player eg. Modric and Kross in Madrid. Do we have one? Yup, but he's retiring and doesn't play a lot.

    Fourth problem: CB situation. Chop and change. Niggling injuries. Best ones who can dominate are out. Inconsistent available CBs who make mistakes. Affecting the second problem, and related with the third problem.

    Fifth problem: Ashley Young and Luke Shaw dilemma. Okay, I like Young and he did his best, and was a matchwinner in some games but for most of the season, we should play a proper left-back. Notice how balance and proper our team looks when Luke Shaw is playing than without. I blame Mourinho on this.

    *Additionally*,
    Sixth problem: No Defense General, the leader one, who will take charge during defensive phases in games, giving commands and/or simply performing by example. When we're defending, it's obviously leaky, and no rigid shape/structure. Missing this type of player put the team under pressure, when opponent is pressing high. Mourinho is doing this with his tactics, but not much he can do other than that. Strangely, Carrick also fulfill this when he plays well, giving us proper structure and cool composure.

    Overall, combine everything and we have the current state of Manchester United.
  11. Feb 22, 2018
    #11

    Rajma Full Member

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    Tactics are not the problem, it's coaching or in our case lack of it that makes us look clueless.
  12. Feb 22, 2018
    #12

    acnumber9 Full Member

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    Herrera was never that good and Sanchez did the exact same thing at Arsenal. There’s definitely problems at the minute and they’ll come to a head if our performances don’t improve but you’re stretching with those examples. I wouldn’t say passing was a strength for most of our players either before or during Jose’s reign. The likes of Lukaku, Rashford and Martial all have physical attributes. Matic is tidy and no more and our defence is what it has always been. Stick a peak Carrick in our midfield and we’d see a huge difference. We don’t have that kind of player at the minute and the closest we have is Pogba and he’s been half arsing about the pitch.
  13. Feb 22, 2018
    #13

    B20 HALA MADRID!

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    He's been lacklustre for arsenal this season as well. So not much new under the sun here.

    Still too soon to judge, but the point of Sanchez for you should be that he plays the game at his own pace and can play well even when others aren't. If he doesn't re-discover that, I could see him going the way of Mata for you. Good, but nothing like the player he was.
  14. Feb 22, 2018
    #14

    roonster09 Full Member

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    Herrera winning player of the season doesn't mean he doesn't fit in this category.

    Our team as a whole struggle to keep the ball, so there you go.
  15. Feb 22, 2018
    #15

    Njord New Member

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    A lot of our problems come from poor recruitment from the years before Mourinho. Yesterday we started with one signing from van Gaal's time at the club. Consider the sheer amount of buying and selling during his reign. That player was Herrera, who's a squad player. The other somewhat succesful van Gaal players are Martial, Shaw, Rojo and Romero, who also seem to be squad players at the moment.

    We have the two players Moyes bought, who I don't think is good enough if we want to compete against the top european teams, and we have some players from SAF, where only DDG is good enough compared to their counterparts at other european teams.

    This means that all our key players (except DDG) are relatively new to the club, and although Mourinho probably could have done more to make us attack as a unit, I dont't think we have the nessecary quality or cohesion to take on big teams away from home, without using negative tactics.
  16. Feb 22, 2018
    #16

    charlenefan Far less insightful than the other Charley

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    Actually it does, because if he was poor on the ball he wouldn't be winning player of the year over the likes of Zlatan
  17. Feb 22, 2018
    #17

    youngrell Full Member

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    We are excellent at coaching players out of form, it seems.
  18. Feb 22, 2018
    #18

    Coxy Full Member

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    Of course we blummen do don't be ridiculous - how about we actually tried??

    Pogba and Sanchez are (or were) world class talents before they came here. Our system just doesn't suit them. We played lovely attacking football earlier in the season - but now we don't. So many mistakes we're making. We should be taking the game to our opponents. We should be playing Shaw over Young. We should have a midfield 3 to take advantage of Pogba. Sanchez should be flying.
  19. Feb 22, 2018
    #19

    Adam-Utd Part of first caf team to complete Destiny raid

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    Agreed.

    We genuinely are coached badly. This team is not drilled in any sense.

    The only good thing we can do is contain space, we block the middle of the pitch well. Teams that want to play wide and put in crosses can do it with ease.

    I really am worried right now, we just look a shambles.

    People are giving Mourinho the benefit of the doubt but we aren't showing signs of improvement, things are going backwards.

    Add in the rumours of player discontent and it's getting worrying.
  20. Feb 22, 2018
    #20

    Adisa likes to take afvanadva

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    I don't believe our players have mental issues.
    If Pogba, Martial, Sanchez, Rashford, Lukaku, Shaw were put up for sale, they'll be snapped up by others too clubs in an instant. We have so bloody good players.
  21. Feb 22, 2018
    #21

    Donnie Brasco Banned

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    Those three are so overhyped and overrated by our fanbase it's not even funny. Salah was bought for less than Martial and is twice the player.
    No, we don't have bloody good players, our best players are those Jose brought in bar de Gea.
    That says alot about how shite of a team he inherited.
  22. Feb 22, 2018
    #22

    Adisa likes to take afvanadva

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    How many people here wanted Salah before Liverpool bought him?
    Not going to get into an argument about hype.
    I'm looking at the talent on ground and asking if the best is being gotten out of them.
    Put those three up for sale and tell me they'll be short of offers.
  23. Feb 22, 2018
    #23

    ROFLUTION Full Member

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    I think we sometimes lack being direct. This was made Mourinho so great with previous teams.

    I don't know if its the player-material or what it is, but Spurs is doing it very well. First time passes from one end of the field to the other to create chances.
  24. Feb 22, 2018
    #24

    DomesticTadpole Doom-monger obsessed with Herrera & the M.E.N.

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    To go direct you need someone who can hold the ball up and bring others into play, that is not Lukaku.
  25. Feb 22, 2018
    #25

    ROFLUTION Full Member

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    I agree - He has the first, but he always need one touch to get it under control and pass it on - Should be able to just pass it to a couple of options with a first touch.. I hate to say it, but like... Welbeck :nervous::nervous::nervous:
  26. Feb 22, 2018
    #26

    DomesticTadpole Doom-monger obsessed with Herrera & the M.E.N.

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    People will say about how many goals Romelu has scored. They say he is a flat track bully and in a way they are right, because the style we are playing he will get away with his limitations against the lesser teams as their players are not as good. Of course when you play the big boys with better players, especially defenders he gets found out. We should be playing to his strengths, which might actually make us more exciting and not as futile.
  27. Feb 22, 2018
    #27

    roonster09 Full Member

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    Herrera was very good at passing when they dominated us at Old trafford. Sanchez this season yes, last season? No. He was very good and helped by all the movement around him.

    Controlling possession is something Jose's team are bad at. So not surprising our whole team look clueless when trying to control game.
  28. Feb 22, 2018
    #28

    roonster09 Full Member

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    I didn't say he was poor on the ball, he isn't as good as he was. One of the attribute was he always looked for through ball (like he played Sanchez yesterday), which he rarely plays now.

    We have good players but not so good tactical set up to bring the best out of them.
  29. Feb 22, 2018
    #29

    L1nk Full Member

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    We may of played awful under LVG but we played as a team and we could string 2 or more passes together. Now we don't do either of these things, come to your own conclusion.
  30. Feb 22, 2018
    #30

    Jim Beam Full Member

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    Salah was considered shit and laughed out by many posters as Chelsea failure and speed merchant. Nobody could see him being this good, even the fans who watched him in Italy, feck even by his own club as he went for a relatively small transfer fee. His value is now way over 100 million.

    The point is system can make a good player look great. We have good players.

    Herrera was also known as one of the best press resisting players in the team.
  31. Feb 22, 2018
    #31

    Minimalist Full Member

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    I understood (to a certain extent) what Van Gaal was doing and hoping for with his approach - frustrating and mind-numbing as it was. Didn't work and he was rightly shown the door.

    I have no idea what Mourinho is doing on the training pitch. It's all seemingly up to the players on the day.
  32. Feb 22, 2018
    #32

    NinjaFletch Full Member

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    We don't though? Look at that list of 'proof' for crying out loud.

    We have two talented but inconsistent young attackers who have a lot of potential but are still a long way from the finished article in Martial and Rashford.
    We have a LB that showed consistent performances for about 3 games before a horrific leg break three years ago and has shown about one months worth of them since in Shaw.
    We have a striker in Lukaku with a nose for goal, a good work ethic and huge flaws in his game.
    We have an outrageously talented central midfielder who has flattered to deceive in his entire time here and seems to lack basic positional awareness of how to play in his position.
    We have a world class player who we signed less than a month ago.

    These are all good players, they are all – perhaps – very good players, but only one (perhaps two but there's a lot of caveats that should be applied to Pogba's time at Juventus) of them has consistently shown world class performances on a consistent basis and he was signed in January. The rest all have shown that they may well have it in them to be world class players, but its still largely potential. I'm sure clubs would be interested in them if they went on the market, but surely it makes it staggeringly obvious when you write it out like that how few of our outfield players are currently in the conversation for the best players in the world in their position?

    Especially when you can only name six players (two of whom play in the same position). Even if we take the most optimistic appraisal of these players current ability that still leaves gaping holes through the very spine of the team and down the entire right hand side.

    I think the players are a huge part of the problem here. The recruitment has been bad since a long time before Ferguson left and has continued to be bad since. We stack up so poorly against the other top sides on paper that it is no wonder we don't consistently play like a world beating side.
  33. Feb 22, 2018
    #33

    GloryHunter07 Full Member

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    Controlling the ball isnt tactics. Its technique.
  34. Feb 22, 2018
    #34

    Ali Dia Full Member

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    Currently watching this shambles is even more depressing than being on here after a defeat. I love the Caf but this particular team is really getting me down. I know money doesn’t always buy success and that’s fine. I don’t need succes. I need to see a plan. There’s no plan and it’s driving me mad. There are no players in this team I really like either. They go missing any time any pressure is applied. They must be looking at each other wondering what the hell is going on. Woeful.
  35. Feb 22, 2018
    #35

    Adisa likes to take afvanadva

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    We have some good players. You mention potential but that's part of it. If we don't have any good players, Mourinho should get sacked for wasting £300m.
    Look at other teams and managers. Part of the reason they're playing much better football is because players have improved under them, even players they inherited.
    How many people here would have picked Trippier and Davies over Darmain and Blind, two years ago. How much have Sane, KDB, Sterling, Mane, Son, Alli, Walker, Dembele, Salah, Firminho etc improved under their managers?
    You can say so and so are overrated only after the fact but the main point is that, we've had players rated just as highly as those players but haven't played them in any cohesive unit for them flourish.
    We signed a 22 year old for £89m and he isn't any better, nearly two years later than the player we signed. Who has actually made considerable improvement?
  36. Feb 22, 2018
    #36

    NinjaFletch Full Member

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    It's not though is it? We're talking about current performances on the pitch. It's ridiculously unfair to those players to expect them to play like the finished article in every game because they've shown flashes of talent. That's not how it has ever worked.
  37. Feb 22, 2018
    #37

    Hoof The Ball Full Member

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    Did anyone read/watch Mourinho's post-match comments?

    His revisionist responses are starting to bug me. I'd rather have a manager who is willing to put his hands up and concede that a poor performance is a poor performance, yet, he always has a spin to make it seem like we were just a little unlucky, or something didn't go our way, or some decision altered the game. I understand the need for player protection and not throwing under the bus, however, doing his best impression of Saddam Hussein's media guy prior to the fall of Baghdad won't do the team any favours. If the team buy into Mourinho's rhetoric of games being "close" and matches being decided by elements of "good fortune", then it gives players no motivation to up their game.
  38. Feb 22, 2018
    #38

    Adisa likes to take afvanadva

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    I don't expect them to play like the finished article but I expect them to be given the platform of a cohesive unit and a good playing structure for them to fulfil Thier potential.
    I refer to Sane and Sterling, both are still fairly young players but they play in positions that allow them to proper in a team that already knows how it's going to play.
    That's why they can improve. That's the kind of platform our own players need.
    I don't see that with us at then moment.
    18 months in and we are still arguing about formation and whether we are an attacking or defensive team.
    I can't see players improving under us because I cant see a structure, not to talk of a structure that gets the best out of them.
  39. Feb 22, 2018
    #39

    desirere New Member

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    We don't move at, thats our problem, very static. Rarely do I see our players move once they recieve the ball,off the ball movement aside, they immediately start looking for options and even if there is a good option upfront, they hesitate and the option gets closed down or they just simply opt for a safer option, making us very very predictable and easy to play against.

    On a side note, I get some of the criticism but our performance has been taken apart on the global media, even here in Croatia they have 2-3/7 articles on the top site /sport regarding our "downfall". Our problem isn't the manager or the majority of the players, it's simply the back line. There we need 3 new players in the summer, the positions are evident (Bailly being part of the new def). CM whould be next and even though JM said he's happy with the attack, I can't for the life of me see why we don't need a quality RW.
  40. Feb 22, 2018
    #40

    Adisa likes to take afvanadva

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    Any time Mourinho is accused of not playing well, his default reaction is to claim the other team didn't create much either. As if he judge performances by how many chances the other team creates.
    To be honest, I wouldn't read much into his responses. Like all managers, they deflect.