"We've spent X, we should be top!" - Let's put an end to this nonsense argument!

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Lentwood, Nov 8, 2017.

  1. Nov 8, 2017
    #1

    Lentwood Full Member

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    [​IMG]

    Right, so what's all that nonsense above then?

    It struck me the number of posters who constantly bleat on about how 'Jose has spent blah...', 'Utd have spent blah...', as if it gives us some kind of God-given right to win titles. I have tried to explain to a number of these posters individually it's not the sums that matter, it's how that number compares to our main title rivals which is the key.

    So above you will see a year-by-year breakdown of what United, Chelsea and City have spent on transfer fees. I have chosen to start in 2004/05, the year that Chelsea where acquired by Roman Abrahamovich.

    Just by looking at the raw numbers, it is not hard to see why these three teams have dominated English football and had success in Europe. It's also not hard to see why teams enjoyed success in certain periods as they align with high spending around that time.

    However, I wanted to go a little bit further than just listing what each team has spent, even though they do provide evidence that United have clearly lagged behind our rivals. I think these numbers are somewhat misleading. We all know that transfer fees have gone insane recently. £50m is the new £20m, so my thinking was that by comparing these transfer outlays as percentages against United's outlay, we see the 'real' amount by which our rivals outspent (or not) Utd during each year. Kind of like how bread costs more now than it did in the 80s, so you need to account for inflation when assessing an employees real wages, for example.

    So, by looking at the percentage figures, you can see that in the space of two transfer windows, City outspent United by 537.59% & 622.72% respectively. To put that in perspective, the most we have outspent City by since the arrival of Sheikh Mansour is 55% - and there are only two years we have outspent City at all in the entire period.

    Ultimately, my point is that the argument that 'Jose has spent £300m, therefore we should win blah..." is fundamentally flawed. Even at the peak of our spending, we are at best just keeping our heads above the water and matching our rivals. We have had no crazy influx of cash or mega spending bonanza to try and level the playing field. It also highlights how negligible sums like £300m are today. Even if you accept that City started from a much lower base than us in 2008, you still have to acknowledge that City had to outspend us by over 500% & 600% to play catch up. Just one Summer now of outspending City to that effect would cost us over £1BN, based on last Summers window!!!!

    Clearly, money talks in football and I say we should be thankful that Jose HAS actually performed very well in the transfer market, with the odd bit of help from Louis, Moyseh and SAF, otherwise we really would be in heaps of trouble! We can't sign a keeper for £25m and replace him 1yr later. We can't sign three full backs to cover two positions in one Summer for £130m. I am afraid that is the reality!

    Just to be clear, I am not complaining. I am not criticizing City or Chelsea. I am not saying it's unfair or ruining football. What I am saying is I want every one of our fans to stop using money spent as a stick to beat Jose, or LvG or Moyes for that matter. Clearly we HAVEN'T kept pace with our rivals spending, both of whom have had huge influxes of cash, and there is or are no other reasons for our recent lack of silverware - in my opinion!

    Thoughts?
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2017
  2. Nov 8, 2017
    #2

    KirkDuyt Full Member

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    All top clubs spend ridiculous amounts of money, whether it's 1 or 2 gazillion pounds is kind of irrelevant to me. United can break the bank for Pogba, Chelsea or City can break the bank for someone else.
    Bayern has had a much better squad than all three while spending much less. It's not the size of your vault, it's the way you use it.

    But saying the only reason United havent won any silverware the last few years is because of money spend seems kind of contradictory. So you can't fault Mou for not achieving stuff even though he spend money, but the only reason he hasnt won is money?

    Also I doubt anyone is saying we spend 3rd most money, we should be top? Be a bit silly.
  3. Nov 8, 2017
    #3

    Borden Full Member

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    Is anyone saying that? Most people just want us to challenge, and not play depressing football while doing so. Seems entirely reasonable.
  4. Nov 8, 2017
    #4

    shamans 1 set of sheets, optimistic about chances of sex

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    It is not a nonsense argument. It shows we clearly had the resources to bring more players like Pogba and less like Mikhitaryan
  5. Nov 8, 2017
    #5

    Dobbs Full Member

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    Unless you can quote a few posters saying that I think its time to shut the thread down.

    We don't need more straw men arguments.
  6. Nov 8, 2017
    #6

    breakout67 Full Member

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    Its a pretty obvious statement.

    Guardiola isn't some joe schmoe manager; he's won 2 champions leagues including a Treble. Give him an unlimited budget and he will make a good team.

    We also have a fantastic manager who has made the best team we've had since the 10/11 team that reached the CL finals.

    We aren't gonna win the league every year, and expecting the team to challenge every year in unrealistic in such a competitive league. What I expect is a progression and improvement which leads to silverware.

    As an example, the RM team that won 3 CLs in 4 years wasn't made overnight, it started when Mourinho came into the club and gave them their first league title since Barcelona became so good. He also got them consistency in the CL, taking them to 3 semi-finals. Ancelotti built on that by giving them that cutting edge in the CL, and Zidane did something unprecedented by winning back-to-back CLs.
  7. Nov 8, 2017
    #7

    Ramshock The spacegoats did it

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    If a playing style depresses you then give up watching football already you have bigger issues.
  8. Nov 8, 2017
    #8

    harms Full Member

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    Have some respect - do a table in Excel/Word and put a screenshot here. It's unreadable
  9. Nov 8, 2017
    #9

    Ramshock The spacegoats did it

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    Read the forum and read twitter. Even Edwards alluded to fans having no patience in that interview with Howson.
  10. Nov 8, 2017
    #10

    EyeInTheSky Full Member

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    Some people need to get out of the mindset that somehow our money is more valuable than our rivals once it is spent. City(more pronounced under pep) and Chelsea to a lesser extent have been able to afford to immediately double down on getting players when they spend on a dud and their depth has been superior for a while now. Once we have bought it is much more difficult for us to quickly resolve the situation if the player is not working out for one reason or another.

    I have argued ad nauseam about the fact that we do not have the financial reserves that state-backed clubs have that can pump cash in to artificially inflate sponsorship revenue via financial dopping from the same owners who own the sponsor themselves. While our revenue is the highest of any club our ability to invest that money is restricted by the structure and real-world dynamics on top of FFP. When you don't play by the same rules it is irrelevant how good your revenue is when it comes down to the nitty-gritty in this context.
  11. Nov 8, 2017
    #11

    Borden Full Member

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    :rolleyes:
  12. Nov 8, 2017
    #12

    EyeInTheSky Full Member

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    was the post you were replying to deleted or did you somehow quote in the wrong thread?

    EDIT: Never mind mate my screen did not refresh
  13. Nov 8, 2017
    #13

    Lentwood Full Member

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    I am not going to reply to all posts individually as it breaks the flow of the thread but people definitely ARE using the money Jose has spent as a stick to beat him with

    The purpose of this thread is to defend the manager by putting an end to that argument. Yes we've spent money - but when people say 'we've spent £300m we should be challenging' all I am saying is that is a far, far too simplistic view and just fundamentally flawed
  14. Nov 8, 2017
    #14

    Andycoleno9 Full Member

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    We spent money wrong. Like milan this summer. Too much average squad players and too many class players. Darmian, blind, schneiderlin, depay, rojo, old scweinie...
  15. Nov 8, 2017
    #15

    Ish Lights on for Luke

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    You've just said yourself that you can see how those 3 teams have been the most successful = their spending. So by that logic, spending does equal success? Or well, a degree expected success anyway. From what I've read on here though, most complaints are directed at our general inability to play any sort of decent attacking football against the other top teams, especially away from home. Even after all we've spent.

    Even though we also haven't spent the most, comparing it to Chelsea, and especially City's spending - who had to essentially buy 2 entire squads (first to get them into UCL contention, and then to elevate them and challenge and win trophies). We didn't have that initial barriers to contend with, as we were already well established. So our spending would be much lower to theirs.
  16. Nov 8, 2017
    #16

    Dobbs Full Member

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    Specifically the claim we should top?

    If it's so profligate quote me 5 posts saying so.
  17. Nov 8, 2017
    #17

    Lentwood Full Member

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    Exactly, agree with all of this. We have to be so much more careful. We can't just have this fly-by-night, devil may care attitude to spending money and that means the flops carry greater significance
  18. Nov 8, 2017
    #18

    Pexbo has never watched Star Wars

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    What an easy read.
  19. Nov 8, 2017
    #19

    Lentwood Full Member

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    Let me see if I can....not that tech-savvy!!
  20. Nov 8, 2017
    #20

    el3mel Full Member

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    Doesn't matter how much money you spend. The only thing matters is the quality and quantity of players you're getting. Under LVG we spent a lot on many average players, while currently we're spending on quality players but only 1 per summer, we have spent 164m on 2 players only ( Lukaku and Pogba ). Both aren't the ideal solution for quick success.
  21. Nov 8, 2017
    #21

    Sassy Colin Death or the gladioli!

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    Like being 2nd in the league challenge?
  22. Nov 8, 2017
    #22

    Van Piorsing Lost his light sabre

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    Indeed, both Moyes & LvG paid the price because their signed players threw them under the bus. Fortunately for the club, Mourinho is a bit smarter cat and start showing the door even to Wayne Rooney, who with Schneiderlin worked hard for Koeman sacking, not so long ago.

    Perhaps if board want some elements shipped out, they got a point and it's not necessarily against Mourinho's plans at all.
  23. Nov 8, 2017
    #23

    dichinero Full Member

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    So it's matter what expectations we should have for team that has spent a ton of money. Great
  24. Nov 8, 2017
    #24

    Borden Full Member

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    If we finish 2nd while having a go at the title I’ll be content with that, sure, even if I’m not nearly happy about the quality of our football. But I don’t think we’ll come close to the title, and I doubt we’ll even finish 2nd.
  25. Nov 8, 2017
    #25

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    The % outspent idea does seem like an interesting way to count for inflation. Just a pity I'm none the wiser about what any of these figures actually are after reading the OP.

    On a side note, I'd say we've wasted more money since Fergie retired than any PL rival did over the same period of time. The likes of Di Maria, Depay, Schneiderlin and Shaw go down as colossal sums of money pissed up against the wall. I don't think any other club has spent so much money, so badly. Could be wrong, though.
  26. Nov 8, 2017
    #26

    Lentwood Full Member

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    Should be sorted now Pogue! It's not a great pic. but better!
  27. Nov 8, 2017
    #27

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    If I'm understanding those data correctly, City and Chelsea have outspent us in every single season since 04/05. Is that correct?
  28. Nov 8, 2017
    #28

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    Of course, there's a Spurs shaped turd in the middle of this particular argument cake...
  29. Nov 8, 2017
    #29

    Lentwood Full Member

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    No, the Data shows that City have outspent us every season bar 12/13 & 14/15 since Sheikh Mansour took over

    My theory though was more around the fact that it's the amount that teams outspend by that makes the real difference. So if we spend £300m, but City spend £600m and outspend us 100% - there are no grounds to say Jose should do better with the money he has spent. This is one of the over-simplified criticisms of Jose and LvG that I have heard regularly over the last few seasons
  30. Nov 8, 2017
    #30

    KirkDuyt Full Member

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    All sorts of inappropriate images are coming to mind. I'll refrain from posting any of them
  31. Nov 8, 2017
    #31

    Nytram Shakes Full Member

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    completely agree with this.

    the money aspect only comes into the argument when people use the argument we havn't invested enough to do this
  32. Nov 8, 2017
    #32

    Nytram Shakes Full Member

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    well we have out spend Chelsea 3 of the last 4 years, these numbers also dont take into account net spend.
  33. Nov 8, 2017
    #33

    Dobbs Full Member

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    @Lentwood can you give us some quotes where top spot is demanded? You must have them to hand if you've started a thread to counter that argument.
  34. Nov 8, 2017
    #34

    dichinero Full Member

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    This
    I remember most saying that they expect a closer title challenge and way better football but I hardly saw a demand to win the title.
    Even the few that expected a title win, it was because there should be a demand given the PL experience José has over Pep, which isn't far fetched imo.
    The thread just feels like a reply to the "We're just a rich West Bromwich" thread.
  35. Nov 8, 2017
    #35

    Lentwood Full Member

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    @dichinero @Dobbs

    No, I can't, because even a man who has spent 2hrs at work putting that Data together has better things to do than trawl Twitter and this forum looking for specific quotes where individuals claim we should be top.

    However, we can argue about the semantics of the thread title but my underlying point is that people have ridiculously high expectations and I have seen thousands of posts referencing the money we have spent to support arguments that we should be doing better or playing better - whatever.

    If you want me to change the thread title I can, but it doesn't change the fact that we have lots of supporters who are misguided about what we should achieve and how quickly we should/can achieve it
  36. Nov 8, 2017
    #36

    Rhyme Animal Modmins said "freeze" and I got numb

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    What about, 'we've spent X, we should be playing better football'?

    Because that's what I'm seeing, I've literally not seen a single post on here saying 'we should be top', yet the T0P Red-types keep repeating this, odd.
  37. Nov 8, 2017
    #37

    TotalFootballOne New Member

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    Aren't some United fans talking about City spending and thus their better, but now it should be looked at a different light for their club?
  38. Nov 8, 2017
    #38

    KirkDuyt Full Member

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    But are the expectations really that ridiculous? Most people I know want a title challenge a CL quarter / semi and some attractive football to watch. That's by no means ridiculous for a huge club like United who have, albeit a bit less than city, still a metric fcuk ton to spend.
  39. Nov 8, 2017
    #39

    Lentwood Full Member

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    Yes, but crucially not by significant amounts. Also, you could argue that the gap between us and Chelsea is now much smaller than it was three years ago...

    I haven't done net spend because I couldn't be bothered, but it wouldn't change much at all. If anything, it would just look even better for Utd since our net was virtually zero for 5/6yrs under SAF
  40. Nov 8, 2017
    #40

    EyeInTheSky Full Member

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    I'm thinking of copy and pasting it and providing an image or link of the sheet. Would be worth it.