Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by RedTillI'mDead, May 15, 2019.
Baggio at Brescia I think it was
Paul Pogba (18-19)
Rodney Marsh at QPR just before he left?
A buddy of mine scored against him back then in a German Cup game. They still lost though...
I was going to mention Aspas. Incredible what a difference he makes to them. He's ridiculed somewhat around here for his Liverpool spell but at home he's carried Celta. Arguably single handily kept them up.
It wasn't Torino, it was Verona, but get your point. I'd think it tipped the scales but not to such an extent.
TBH, Verona winning was akin to Leicester, they were clearly not superior but had that resilience and had a go at the big time playing to their strengths. Preben Elkjaer spent an entire season doing a Baggio 94 in that he was a one-man frontline.
With or without knowing refs in advance that's a once in a lifetime star alignment.
Haven't seen a game of them yet, but I imagine Iniesta at Vissel Kobe must fall into this category. Tevez and Mascherano at West Ham as well.
Mascherano only played a few games for West Ham. Pardew didn't trust him
Dzeko used to be an absolute monster for Bosnia and Herzegovina. Even if they had Pjanic, too.
More recently and briefly - Piątek at Genoa.
While I can agree with Maradona at Argentina, on Napoli I can only agree on the 86/87 team, which was actually a top 6 squad max.
The title winning Napoli team of 89/90 (who were 2nd for 2 seasons in a row) had a much better squad and some of the best players the market could find (remember the Bosman rule didn't existed yet) and I think both Careca and Crippa were amazingly good on that season. And a very young promise name Zola was a fantastic power sub during the season.
Very tough. In line with the George Weah mention, I'd say Goran Pandev for the Macedonia NT. Played for Lazio, Inter and Napoli when his teammates largely couldn't even make it at bottom-tier clubs in any strong league. Same goes for Emmanuel Adebayor and Togo. Not that either of them ever achieved anything, but you wouldn't expect that they would, given the requirements outlined in the opening post.
In club football, Niko Kranjčar during his stint at Hajduk took the piss without ever breaking into a sprint. Head and shoulders above anyone else on that team.
An exaggeration, but not a myth.
Napoli at first he carried, then Careca, Alemao and another my brain can’t cough up took larger roles.
Argentina 86 was barring Maradona the weakest team by far who ever won a deserved World Cup, and even the players now remembered as good (Valdano, Burruchaga, Brown, Pumpido) were from ok to underwhelming normally, but lifted to great hights by the belief in Maradona.
In 90 they were possibly worse, Caniggia looking better than for most of the rest of his carreer. Maradona was half injured and disappointed for his level, yet still carried them to an undeserved final.
You are underlining precisely what my beef is with "Maradona carried X".
Maradona didn't carry teams, he raised everyone's level. It's not a pedantic nuance, it's what the difference between him and Messi boils down to.
Messi HAS carried Argentina, what he has failed to do is make those around him better. Maradona didn't drag poor teams to wins singlehandedly, he made everyone else be better: good if ordinary, world class if good, etc. THAT is what made him special, Messi as an individual is better, but Maradona made the collective work at a different gear and that augments his impact because it's ultimately a team sport with XI players on the pitch.
Again, tell me one player that didn't look his best alongside Maradona.
Agree the first Napoli title was more of a carrying job as the individual quality was more evident later but, again, it wasn't a result of Maradona winning games by himself, he made the team perform better than its individual parts.
I'm not dissing him, very much the opposite, that (not carrying) is what makes him THE GOAT to me and nobody will change my mind no matter how many titles and brilliant Messi stats and Youtube clips I get thrown my way.
Petit, Pires, Karembeu (European champion that year with RM) and Patrice Vieira?
I agree with the awful attack, though they still had Trezeguet and Henry, but yeah they were really young. Still they relied heavily on that midfield and world class defence, and it paid off
George Best around 1971 & 2.
Beckham vs. Greece
Ian Wright in the 1-0 to the Arsenal phase when George Graham didn't really want to attack at all - post success really
Oh I get it
David De Gea - Manchester United. The day SAF left - the last month of this season
Argentina were genuinely shite in 1990. They were significantly better in 1986 when Maradona still basically won a series of matches.
They were very lucky to reach the Final in 1990 when DM was a shadow of 1986.
Is what I reckon.
The often forgotten Abedi Pele, father of Jordan and Andre Ayew, is a good example i think. When he was at the top of world football in the early 90's, he carried Ghana (was voted player of the tournament) to the final of the ANC in 92. Back then they barely had any big name players, besides maybe Yeboah. Was suspended in the final and they lost on pens.
He is eclipsed by Milla because of his WC exploits and Ghana not being able to qualify but around that time he was the most important African footballer.
I agree with your point, or at least from a point. The young Maradona was more of a individual brilliantist and less, I don’t know if ‘mature’ or ‘socially aware’ really fits the bill, but it was more like seeing Messi: pieces of brilliance littered all over the place, the opposition all looked to him and his teammates all looked to him, and he could succeed or get frustrated. After WC 82 and the frustrating Barcelona stint, he found his place in Napoli and what you describe started being the norm, so that when he was 34 and really a finished player, marked by drug abuse, injuries, bouts of depression and lack of football, his confidence boosted by an by all descriptions physically ineffectual cocktail of enhancement drugs - Argentina (now with their best generation of players since 78) played like surefire World Champions when he was in the team, and like Neymar-less brazilians when he was out, caught doping.
It’s true Messi never had that kind of impact, and I put it down to Maradona really being emotionally extrovert in a safe, family kind of setting, he loves and cares everyone in his ‘family’ and he gets that back in a way. This was also on display in his surreal stint as Argentine manager, when Argentina did surprisingly well for a surprisingly long while despite him being no kind of football coach and barely rationlly accountable. You could see the players burning to fight for him even when they were visibly confused.
Messi is juat not that kind of person, then again, it has allowed him to foster a top athlete consistency that Maradona could only dream of.
A less interesting point is I think it’s justifiable applying the words ‘carry the team’ about both these things.
Riquelme at Villarreal. 2006 was it?
How good was Gullit at the time?
Gk: Yashin-dinamo moscow
Rb: thuram - Parma
Cb: Stam - PSV
CB- Rio - Leeds
LB- Irwin- oldham
Mc- Dunga - fiorentina
MC- Hagi - Brescia
MC- Nedved- lazio
AMC- Maradona - Napoli
FWD- Baggio - bologna
STK Batigol - Fiorentina
Mario Jardel at Porto was a monster stats and goals wise for a few seasons
Thuram had Buffon, Cannavaro, Crespo and Veron at Parma.
Nedved had Veron and Nesta.
Including national teams would make this a lot easier...
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