What do you think about Pep vs Mourinho

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by theREDMAN, Mar 5, 2018.

  1. Mar 5, 2018
    #1

    theREDMAN Full Member

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    First off let me say I am sure some sort of discussion like this exists but I searched and couldn’t find it so I wanted to ask if any of you feel Pep would be in the same position in the league with our squad as he is with the city squad as they currently are rostered? We know Jose inherited more of a mess, etc. However, I believe our typical starting 11 is just as solid in every position as City’s except for Aguero (who gets better service than Lukaku to be fair) and the David Silva role (right now McTominay is our 3rd midfielder). I personally feel Pep, because of his system and playing style, would be getting similar results with our squad. I can compare each player man for man and make arguments that our players are just as good and usually better in many cases. Systems and man management tends to play a big role in overall success and I think the system City employs would fit our squad as well.

    I do not mean this to be anti-Mourihno and I’m not against how we play if it brings wins and trophies. I do not live in a dream world and wish we had City’s manager. I am not saying Mourihno isn’t the guy for United because honestly there aren’t many great managers out there. I was just curious what you all think about how our squads match up and if you think our squad could play the attacking style over the defensive counter attacking style.
  2. Mar 5, 2018
    #2

    Chesterlestreet Man of the crowd

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    A better question, IMO, would be if Pep could have brought in the players he'd need in order to construct a - well - proper Pep side, given the resources available at United.

    Answer: Yes.

    Could he just take over our present starting XI and make them look like City?

    Answer: No.
  3. Mar 5, 2018
    #3

    El Pasillo Banned

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    Well, this is like trying to push the narrative that CR7 is on the same level as Messi.

    Pep is the best coach from his era bar none.

    He sits in his own table whereas the likes of Mourinho, Klopp, Allegri etc. aren't even in the same room.
  4. Mar 5, 2018
    #4

    gerdm07 Full Member

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    No. Our 11 is not as good as City's. I think Pogba and Sanchez are the only two attackers that would be on the first team for City. Maybe Bailly, when fit, for defense. The better question is who would still be here if Pep was hired instead of Mourinho.
  5. Mar 5, 2018
    #5

    groovyalbert Full Member

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    Sadly true. He's the most innovative manager in the game, and continues to be so after 10 years at the top. Nothing's come close to displacing him or his style.
  6. Mar 5, 2018
    #6

    Pexbo has never watched Star Wars

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    An even better question would be how would Pep have done in Mourinho’s shoes.

    He started from a better position squad wise and has spent more money.
  7. Mar 5, 2018
    #7

    KirkDuyt Full Member

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    This thread will be a smashing success.

    Excuse me while I pitch a tent to seek shelter from the imminent shitstorm.

    Having said that, I personally prefer the way Pep does things. That is, on a professional level, I can't stand him as a person. I also respect Mourinho for his pragmatism, but again, can't stand him as a person.

    Come to think of it, I can't think of an active manager I really like.
  8. Mar 5, 2018
    #8

    el3mel Full Member

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    Pep won it this season.

    Regarding what he would have done with out squad, considering the state of the squad LVG left, the certain playstyle Pep wants to play and our 150m budget per summer, Pep would have taken at least 3-4 years to build a very good team nevermind winning the league. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded.

    LVG left a squad whose leader was still Rooney and his 2 best players are 2 youngsters. None of our whole squad at this time can play the kind of football Pep wants his teams to play. If you think Pep is just about keeping possession of the ball you're terribly wrong. I could have seen Pep getting rid of 90% of our squad and getting a full new team by his 3rd year to start challenging for the title.
  9. Mar 5, 2018
    #9

    Cliche Guevara Full Member

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    Pep is a doping City cnut.

    Jose is United’s manager and as that I love him.

    Next question.
  10. Mar 5, 2018
    #10

    Return of the Manc Banned

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    Blind would be in defence. A quality player. Rashford would be prefered over Lukaku. Martial would also be a centre frward or a left forward & minimal need to hug the touchline and cross. Just some off the top of my head.
  11. Mar 5, 2018
    #11

    gerdm07 Full Member

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    This is why I think Mourinho is likely to engineer his exit next season. I'm not sure how he will do it but unless we are near the top and look like we have a chance at a title, Mourinho will be gone by December. Mou is smart enough to know he does not want to manage United when Pep and City win 3 PLs in a row. His legacy would be forever damaged. He will probably be coaching Portugal at this time next year.
  12. Mar 5, 2018
    #12

    Sensei Banned

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    Herrera (you'd be amazed at the transformation)
    Mkhitaryan (with pep, dry bones still rise)
    Blind
    Martial
    Rashford
    De Gea
    Pereira (I'd love to see him under Pep)
    Shaw
    Young can do a Delph

    The only ones sure to leave are prolly

    Fellaini
    Smalling & Jones after a season
  13. Mar 5, 2018
    #13

    amolbhatia50k Sneaky bum time

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    I think Pep is the superior manager due to his coaching abilities. Jose is probably better in the transfer market but that doesn't bridge the gap of Pep being better at building cohesion and a fluid attack.

    Of course we'd all like to see Pep's story at City take a bad twist and Jose come out on top soon.
  14. Mar 5, 2018
    #14

    el3mel Full Member

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    No chance for these 2 to play in Pep's system that wants to keep the ball and always pass it forward instead of backpassing or losing it recklessly. Also no chance for Young to play considering he's awful in getting the ball from the defense forward.

    Agree with the rest. Not all of them would have become starters though. Can only see David, Shaw and Martial starters under Pep. The rest would have been a shiny new team.
  15. Mar 5, 2018
    #15

    Camilo Full Member

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    Well no, he wouldn't be doing so well with our current squad. But he didn't do so well with his squad last season either. Give him our squad and a year to work with them... Who knows. Nobody thought City were going to do what they've done this season after all, and playing Walker for most of the season hasn't somehow transformed the team - the starting 11 is basically the same as last year.

    I rate Pep. I think he's massively intense and focused, and I think you can see his players buying into that. If your boss gives everything, and encourages you to give everything, I think you get the performances we're seeing from City week in week out. I don't think they have a hugely better squad, they're just playing out their skins with huge belief and confidence. But I do think they'll burn out next season, unless they bring in 3 or 4 more starters in the summer.

    Jose seems to want his players to do it on their own. Rather than trying to extract performances from his players he expects them to be motivated to do it themselves. Despite Jose's short stays everywhere he goes, I'd say his approach is the better long term one.. Get the players to play for themselves and the club, not the manager.

    No doubting which approach is working better right now though.
  16. Mar 5, 2018
    #16

    OldSchoolManc Full Member

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    Pep would struggle with this squad. The injuries and suspensions we’ve had over the course of this season, have hurt us badly.
    We wouldn’t have seen any youth playing time. Actually no, we would have seen about 9 minutes total shared out.
    Jose was the right choice for us at this time. Glazers would never have given Pep a bottomless fund.

    If Jose had gone to City and had limitless funds, I think he’d have done just as well.
  17. Mar 5, 2018
    #17

    Fridge chutney Full Member

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    If you make the distinction of coach vs. manager, maybe.

    But Pep is not the best manager of his era, that's just too broad a claim to make given the achievements of Mourinho, Ferguson, etc.
  18. Mar 5, 2018
    #18

    Sensei Banned

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    Re Herrera, Did you get a chance to watch Herrera at Bilbao and in his first season before his rib injury. Herrera is a risk taker but after seasons with LvG and Jose, he's turned to a safe sideways passer. That is the easier thing to correct because the talent is there.

    Re Mkhi, i would have agreed with you but after seeing Raheem Sterling at City, i'd give him a season before writing him off (which is what Pep would do anyways).
  19. Mar 5, 2018
    #19

    amolbhatia50k Sneaky bum time

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    Sir Alex isn't from Pep's era. They just overlapped briefly.

    It's not a broad claim at all. It is, like all these things, subjective.
  20. Mar 5, 2018
    #20

    Offsideagain Full Member

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    Guardiola is no genius. He has spent north of ONE BILLION POUNDS at the three clubs he’s managed. City won nowt last season so his genius counted for nothing. £430m so far at City, yes they are playing well but next season the other teams will have figured out how to play them.

    Also, how lucky have they been. Take the shinner that won the game yesterday and the straight red that Oliver bottled for a tackle on Moses that would have been talked about forever if that had been Rojo or Fellaini. Now the cheeky hits are moaning to Mike Riley about the rough treatment of their little loves. Three no shows at drugs tests, players out of control at Wigan they get £80k fine. Bid deal.

    If you gave Sean Duce £430m to spend in two seasons Imbet he would be hailed a genius too. Should Guardiola go and manage West Brom and get them into the CL on their budget, then he can be lorded.
  21. Mar 5, 2018
    #21

    Varun Moderator Staff

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    Pep is the ideal manager for any club with a feck tonne of money. He needs high quality players across the board but given that, no manager can match what he creates. Given we are a club with a feck tonne of money, yes, he'd have us at a higher level than Mourinho has. Not with this squad mind, he'd have bought very differently.
  22. Mar 5, 2018
    #22

    MDFC Manager Full Member

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    How about, would Pep be doing better at United with the same amount of money that Mourinho has spent?

    Yes, he certainly would be.
  23. Mar 5, 2018
    #23

    Return of the Manc Banned

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    Doubt it. Pep didnt come in to first year at City and win the trophies did he?- they were not even retaining possesion the way they are this season. Considering under LVG we had a team that had retained possesion across the whole league but primarily struggled to break down defences - this would be primarily what Pep would have needed to target both tactically and during his transfer windows. It was more likely that Jose would taken longer to build something from what LVG left than Pep would have - even ideologically both LVG & Pep run through branches of ajax/Barcelona's philosophy.

    To assume that Pep would have needed a longer time to produce something than Jose is just delusional - especially when our manager has yet to do it himself.

    I dont even particularly like Pep- I just find it a bit annoying that we went from one maximum of a philosphy under LVG where things like possession and positioning around a team was important - to know where we are under a manager who promotes individuality, strength/ hoofing, counterattacking football.

    To me, it has been a longer procedure that has yet to prove to be significantly beneficial ( maybe next season). The other option was take what LVG had done things like the team retaining 60+ % possesion in games against both the best and worst teams in the league - find a way to produce the goods and break down the teams that chose to park the bus against us. This was possibly the plan/ the next step for the next manager at the time who was Giggs - so whilst United might not be good as City currently if Pep was the manager- to assume we would be worse under him than what we have been currently being seen under Jose is a bias and is wrong.
  24. Mar 5, 2018
    #24

    el3mel Full Member

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    Not the first time I hear Bilbao answer on this but simple thing is simple, a player can't lose everything he learned about going forward just because of 2 seasons. Even if we go by the logic that LVG and Mourinho destroyed him, then Pep would have got Herrera after he played 2 years under LVG already, not the Herrera we bought from Bilbao you know.

    Sterling have far more guts than Mikhi ever had. He never hides or escapes from the ball even if he misses chances or does some things bad. He keeps getting the ball and running at defenders, while Mikhi whenever situation gets tight he hides from the ball and goes into his shell. It's not just form. Sterling has the will to develop, Mikhi is gutless.
  25. Mar 5, 2018
    #25

    Fridge chutney Full Member

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    But it is a broad claim. And since Pep and SAF overlapped (not insignificantly when you consider the lifespan of a manager), are they not from the same era? Depends on how you define era.

    Pep took over a treble winning team at Bayern and failed to win the CL. Barca were successful before him and continued being successful after him. He needs shedloads of money to coach his teams to success. He will win the league in England but let's wait to judge his legacy in England before we pass "greatest era" claims.
  26. Mar 5, 2018
    #26

    KirkDuyt Full Member

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    No trainer in the history of any sports could do something like that, so that's not really a valid criterium to hold him by.

    Fact is, clubs trust him with this kind of money, because he gets results with them. He's a checkbook manager sure, but he's very apt at making the most out of the check book they hand him. Just look at the difference between Pep's Bayern and Ancelotti's Bayern, the latter being one of the top trainers of his era as well.

    Mou and Pep are probably the two greatest trainers of their generation, but I think legacy wise, Pep will be remembered more fondly by everyone but the people that support a club Mou has had success at.
  27. Mar 5, 2018
    #27

    Varun Moderator Staff

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    He is the best coach if you can give him whatever he wants which isn't doable even for all big clubs, let alone clubs in general.
  28. Mar 5, 2018
    #28

    Sensei Banned

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    Not impossible. Ernesto Valverde wanted him at Barca but MUFC didn't sell.
  29. Mar 5, 2018
    #29

    Pass and Move Full Member

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    He's never won the CL with Porto and Inter, and I wouldn't expect him to be able to either. He's great with a killer squad and has been flattered by the teams he's been at the helm of. His Barca team was well coached but had the perfect players for that precise system. Even with Bayern he couldn't get past Barca in the CL.
  30. Mar 5, 2018
    #30

    Marcky411 Full Member

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    The difference between Pep and Jose is day and night. Two completely different managers, two completely different playing styles, so comparing them doesn't help. Firstly Pep wouldn't have overspent on mediocrity and had a clear vision what he wanted to achieve with his team, mould it into what he wanted. Wasn't afraid to instantly get rid of deadwood or players that didn't suit him e.g. Joe Hart. One thing we also can't deny is his man management, making players perform better than they are, taking some top players to another level. Due to this clear vision he had before he started and obviously the funds to back him he could turn City into his team in such a short time.
    Jose has been here as long as Pep has been at City, still don't see no vision or style jose is trying to create. Bought players that didn't suit his mould of player e.g. Mihki. Yet to see his style of management/man management take players to the next level. He has been financially backed the same as Pep but either his ego or scouting has let him down, never seems to have a plan B e.g.(Perišić). I really hope that next season we get to see what Jose is trying to build at Utd, maybe after another summer transfer window he really addresses the areas in the team that really need fixing. That the pieces of his puzzle will fall into place for all to see what a real Jose Utd team looks like and one that can compete at the highest level like Pep's City.
  31. Mar 5, 2018
    #31

    peridigm Full Member

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    We've been hearing for years about seeing Pep manage in the PL and against Jose. It's happening. Jose won last season. Pep winning this season.
  32. Mar 5, 2018
    #32

    Chesterlestreet Man of the crowd

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    Possibly - not certainly.

    That said, I don't agree with those who claim he would've ditched nine players out of ten, etc.

    The idea that our squad is horrible beyond belief has been used to defend all three managers post Fergie.
  33. Mar 5, 2018
    #33

    KirkDuyt Full Member

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    Neither has he won the premier league with Leicester and I bet my mom on the fact he'l never be able to. Neither would Mou for that matter. Does that make Ranieri the best trainer ever?

    @Chesterlestreet

    The post you're quoting is not mine. Something went wrong I guess?
  34. Mar 5, 2018
    #34

    el3mel Full Member

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    Did you read the post ?

    Pep's style has never been like the shite show LVG was doing here, keeping aimless possession, sideways and backpassing nonstop for no purpose. Pep's style is about retaining the ball but in the opposition's third. The ball must move quickly from the defense forward and past the central line for the midfielders and wingers to push the opposition defense in their last third and run circles around them till a gap appears. LVG style was about passing sideways and backwards aimlessly to prevent the opposition from attacking our fragile defense. LVG used his boring possession for the sake of defending, while Pep uses possession for the sake of attacking and pushing teams back. To see that since we possess the ball well under LVG we would have played well under Pep just shows you know nothing of Pep's style.

    Pep has been inspired by Cruyff. I don't know when the claims of LVG being his inspiration ever comes. Seems something only invented by LVG fanboys.

    Sorry but you're the one delusional here. Look at the current City team. Pep spent half a billion and guess what, he only changed the back row, GK and a winger (Sane). Fernandinho, KDB, Silva, Sterling and Aguero were all present when he got the team and are all now fundamentals in this unstoppable team.

    Can you see that with the squad LVG left ? The squad that its 2 best players were 2 inconsistent youngsters, has no striker, has no midfielders but instead shoehorning Rooney in the midfield and plays aimless possession in our own third for the sake of preventing the opposition from attacking our fragile defense ? You really think both are comparable ? Don't make me laugh.

    Pep would have needed to spend far, far more than what he spent with City. He would have got a full new back row, maybe keeping Shaw only or something. He would have got 3 full new midfielders including 2 top class attacking ones to play his 4-3-3. He would have got a top striker and another top winger to partner Martial. That's only the startling lineup, not to mention signings for the bench. Adds to that time to install his play style in the players minds and making a coherent team. You think that won't have taken longer time ? Then think again. Pep's style demands from his players far more than any other top manager's does.

    At City he got Fernandinho, KDB, Silva and Aguero, so he didn't need any signings in midfield, so instead focused the money in improving the only weak spot (back row and GKs), and getting some good talents to add to the versatile players he already had, so got Jesus, Sane and B.Silva. He didn't build a new team. He improved the weak points in the squad, and he needed to spent half a billion for that. Now imagine this with our terrible squad LVG left and you'll know how much he would have taken to have such a similar team as current City.
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
  35. Mar 5, 2018
    #35

    Chesterlestreet Man of the crowd

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    Yes - sorry about that. Feckin' phone.
  36. Mar 5, 2018
    #36

    abdo99 Full Member City Lover

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    I don't believe Pep would win the league with our current squad of players as it is right now. In attack I feel he would have us scoring a lot more and the likes of Martial/Rashford/Pogba/Sanchez would all be doing better no doubt however our current defence isn't on the required level for a Pep team. Smalling for instance would be sold right away along with Young and Jones. The only defender he would rate is Bailly and maybe Shaw IMO.

    We'd look exactly like how City were playing last season with their aging defence Sagna/Kolarov/Clichy because you can't suddenly teach these players to pass out from the back and get them playing in a completely different way. It's a lot easier to sell them and buy new players who fit into your philosophy which is what he did with his defenders from last season. Our playing style would improve massively even with our current players but the results wouldn't be any better. They would only improve by overhauling our defence completely.

    The real question is would Pep be doing better than Jose if he'd taken over at the same time Jose did? It's difficult to say because he would've needed to spend the money Jose did plus more given the state of the squad LVG behind. We were at a worse starting point than City but i feel Pep would've been more ruthless than Jose has been in getting rid of the dead wood and would've been more proactive in making the changes needed to shape a team in his image. He walked in at City and got rid of a club legend Hart right away. No sentiments. Players like Fellaini, Smalling, Rooney and others would've been gone straight away. Rooney was in the first 11 at the start of the season and even though we knew he was finished it took Jose a while to drop him completely. Pep would've done that in pre-season. Small details like that are reasons why we'd be a lot further forward in our development right now had he taken over.

    We may have even failed to win the trophies we did last season (League Cup and EL). Pep won nothing last season with a team who are better than us. Given that our squad was behind City when both managers took over we would've had even worse results initially but when things click there is no doubt our football would be exactly how City are playing now.
  37. Mar 5, 2018
    #37

    Charles Miller Full Member Verified Moaner

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    I prefer Guardiola to coach my team and Mourinho to my nt, because he is a knockout-stage coach imo. I would not be surprised if Mourinho leads this current United to the semis or even the final of the Champions League.
  38. Mar 5, 2018
    #38

    Sterling Archer Full Member

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    I hope you're not dismissing that overlap. That period defined Pep's legend, greatness whatever you call it. He dominated one of SAFs greatest teams twice over and he has not won as many trophies with any other club since (yet).

    SAFs career can be definitely defined by the great teams he built and managed with United. Pep couldn't reach the same heights at Bayern, a "pure footballing club" or whatever LVG claimed. If Pep can do that with this City team (multiple CL and league titles ) then we can compare him to any manager, whatever 'era' without hesitation.
  39. Mar 5, 2018
    #39

    Akshay Moderator Staff

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    Most likely Rashford would have been sold like Iheanacho was and one or two new strikers would have been bought in his place. Martial would have to improve his pressing and movement or he'd find himself on the bench. Pep had no problem putting Silva and Aguero in their place last season until they came around to his way of playing, you better believe a player who has achieved much less would get the same treatment.

    As for Blind, I've seen nothing to suggest he's a quality player in any position. His biggest strength is being a jack of all trades.
  40. Mar 5, 2018
    #40

    theREDMAN Full Member

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    As far as the squad this is how I see it:

    GK=DDG>Ederson (DDG doesn’t play out the back like Ederson but we don’t know if he even can because of our system is to punt it deep)

    Defense: Pep would take Bailey and Lindelof over his current CBs (except Kompany who is awesome but rarely fit)
    RB/LB are comparable and hard to argue which are better (Mendy is better than Shaw but both have had injury issues and Jose still doesn’t trust Shaw for whatever reason)

    Midfield: talent and numbers show Pogba is slightly ahead of De Bruyne when on the field (Pogs missed over a month this season and is typically played outside of his strengths) to say otherwise means you just don’t like Pogba
    CDMs are similar class and get the job done
    David Silva is much better than Scot McT but they are obviously asked to do different things within their systems

    Attack: Aguero is better than Rom but in fairness to Rom Aguero gets way more service and chances
    Martial and Sane are both super talented young attackers (I think Martial may be a better talent but he needs a different system for sure to prove that. I don’t see a potential Balon Dor winner in Sane like Martial, but Sane is producing more at the moment so I am not discrediting him at all)
    Alexis is better than Jesus at the moment but for how long? (Alexis also isn’t fitting into our system yet)