What happened to Dutch football?

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by Adisa, Oct 13, 2015.

  1. Oct 13, 2015
    #1

    Adisa Full Member

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    I have been wanting to discuss this or sometime but never bothered. Everyone agrees they massively overachieved with their 3rd place finish last year. The thing for me is they aren't really producing the talent. If you look at their squad the gap between the top class old guard and the decent young players with potential is humongous. There's almost nothing inbetween. Today is a culmination of years of deterioration imo. What has happened?
  2. Oct 13, 2015
    #2

    Randall Flagg Worst of the best

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    They were playing Wimbledon style football in the 2nd half today. It was quite the sight
  3. Oct 13, 2015
    #3

    VorZakone What would Kenny G do?

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    Elder players not performing at their best while the new generation lacks winner mentality. It's a really big cliche to say that they should focus less on clothes and partying and all that stuff but surely there is some truth in it. Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard. They have been outmuscled consistently throughout the qualifications.
  4. Oct 13, 2015
    #4

    harms Full Member

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    The amount of talent they had in the past years is ridiculous for a country their size. It's expected that sometimes there will be weaker generations of players - and no football education, as good as it is in Netherlands, will change that.
  5. Oct 13, 2015
    #5

    DWelbz19 Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016

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    Team just doesn't look very good. Their former world class players are declining (bar Robben, although he's gone back to being injury prone) and the rest of the side are just unproven young talents - a fair amount of whom just aren't that good.
  6. Oct 13, 2015
    #6

    Samid follows Pogue around, fixing his images

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    From 3rd in the world to being 29th in Europe in the space of 15 months. That's quite a turnaround.
  7. Oct 13, 2015
    #7

    Adisa Full Member

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    The elder players are all well into their 30s. They are bound to show decline, the problem is there's no one even looking close to filling that gap.
    I was thinking that the reduction of the Eredivisele to irrelevance was a factor. But that excuse doesn't hold water. Look at Belgium, and France; two countries that have had to deal with a weak league yet they still churn out talent after talent.
  8. Oct 13, 2015
    #8

    Someone Something

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    Yeah, all teams go through weak cycles at some point, we can over analyse it all we want, but it happens even at club football level when you can actually buy players.
  9. Oct 13, 2015
    #9

    coolredwine lameredboots

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    No.
  10. Oct 13, 2015
    #10

    Adisa Full Member

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    So you would have backed that Dutch team to finish 3rd at the start of the tournament?
  11. Oct 13, 2015
    #11

    Stookie Nurse bell end

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    It's all down to management.
  12. Oct 13, 2015
    #12

    Stadjer Full Member

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    Multiple things. Ofcourse van Gaal hugely overachieved at the WC but we should have qualified for EC without a problem.

    Our Dutch Eredivisie is very very poor. Players like Tete and Riedewald played youth football before this season and yet they can compete in the Eredivisie without a problem. Now they are already starting for our NT. Another problem is young players leaving. A lot of young players leave to bigger clubs but since those clubs are bigger and need to win, those clubs dont play a lot of youth players. Players dont develop. Only the greatest talents may get a chance. Other players like Bruma waste a lot of years od their careers.

    Another reasons are injuries. Strootman was supposed to become the new midfield general but i dont think he played football in over 2 years. Vlaar is a perma crock and worldclass player Robben is back to his injury prone state.

    As we all know RvP hugely declined as a player, Huntelaar has never been worldclass, Sneijder is still good but he is also getting old just like Robben is. Van der Vaart only makes headlines because of his wives, exwives, loce childs but not because of his on field achievements and new worldclass talents arent breaking through atm. Memphis is our biggest talent and i think he is very overrated.

    We just dont have that many good players at this moment. However the current Ajax youth is dominating youth football, there might be a talented generation coming up.
  13. Oct 13, 2015
    #13

    clarkydaz Full Member

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    LVG likes this
  14. Oct 13, 2015
    #14

    Gio 4 times Redcafe Draft Winner

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    Aye. You've got to be realistic about the quality a relatively small country can consistently produce. Looking back there have been similar cycles insofar as they did little before the late 1960s and had a bad spell between 1978 and 1988.
  15. Oct 13, 2015
    #15

    Stadjer Full Member

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    Yes. Even we Dutch people expected an exit after the group fase.
  16. Oct 13, 2015
    #16

    coolredwine lameredboots

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    You don't really have to back someone for a position for them to be deserved.
  17. Oct 13, 2015
    #17

    Hammerfell Full Member

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    You can still overachieve while deserving it, they're not mutually exclusive.
  18. Oct 13, 2015
    #18

    Scorpy Absolutely crapping it and loving it!

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    Van Gaal's departure hasn't helped at all. I don't think people expected his departure to be this detrimental to the team. He made some average players play better than ever at the World Cup and his tactics made a very solid, hardworking team, that was effective, had a clear gameplan and was very hard to beat. He recognized their weaknesses in defence and set up a system where even Vlaar looked like a world class player. They wouldn't have accomplished anything without Robben, though. He was unplayable at times last year and his injury problems are one of the most significant reasons for their failure.

    Hiddink chose to turn to the 4-3-3 formation, which is not suitable to the current crop of players at all. They're awful in defence and with Strootman injured, the midfield isn't any better. I didn't expect Hiddink to fail so miserably, but he fecked up badly and fecked off, leaving Blind with a mountain to climb. It's not Blind's fault though, the KNVB should have recognized the need for a more established coach who'd have been able to use his experience and try and claim the third spot. The defeat in Turkey was devastating for their chances. Their tactics for the game should have been much, much better.

    The biggest problem is the decline of their best players, who are old now. Van Persie is a shadow of his former self. Sneijder has been shit for a few years now, but still performed very well in Van Gaal's formation. Robben is still a world class player despite his age, but is injured at the worst times. Van der Vaart has been finished for a good few years as well.

    Their young/er players don't seem up to the standard at the moment. There's far too much pressure on Memphis to perform both at United and at the national team, and the pressure seems to be crushing him right now. He's playing shit and is just a matter of time before it crushes his confidence. He should have been eased in, both at club and international level. People forget he's still a young lad. Just because we bought him for big bucks doesn't mean he's ready to replicate what Robben offers to the national team or turn into the next Ronaldo overnight for us. He's not yet ready to be the difference when it matters the most. He's far from a game changer as he lacks consistency.

    Hopefully they'll bounce back in the World Cup qualifiers, but they need to find the winning formula. They need to decide whether to stick with Blind and see his results in the friendlies until the WC qualifiers begin next fall and sack him if they're not convinced, or appoint a better, more established and experienced manager straight away to begin a new era for the national side and have enough time to implement his ideas until the qualifiers for Russia 2018. Just like Van Gaal showed - when you lack the quality, choose a suitable formation. Turning a blind eye to the side's glaring weaknesses is never a good idea. I don't know if there are any outstanding talents coming through for the Dutch right now, but they need someone other than Memphis to focus on.
  19. Oct 13, 2015
    #19

    Adisa Full Member

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    I didn't say they did not deserve it.
  20. Oct 13, 2015
    #20

    Adisa Full Member

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    In short making young players look better than they really are. I though about this and mentioned it in my second post. However, it seems there aren't any good matured players around the mid 20s also. Probably with the exception of Blind who is a utility man. The group between the young Boazer, El Gazi etc and old RVP, Robben etc is very poor in my opinion.
  21. Oct 13, 2015
    #21

    Keeps It tidy Hates Messi

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    Let us remember with how small the country is it is amazing that they ever are one of the elites in international Football.
  22. Oct 13, 2015
    #22

    LazyRed-Ninja LazyGrammar-Ninja

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    Absolutely, absolutely gutted. We used to be a force in international football but this defeat reflects what we had been fearing for while now. The Robben generation doesnt have successors. Dont even know what to type here. Gutted, just gutted.
  23. Oct 13, 2015
    #23

    matherto ask me about our 50% off sale!

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    Football is a cycle between generations and every team has a stage where there's a gap in talent between the old who need to be phased out and the young who aren't ready yet. This is exacerbated if the youth aren't actually that good.

    Brazil are having the same problem right now.
  24. Oct 13, 2015
    #24

    bigredmachine Running smooth

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    They strayed from the philosophy.
  25. Oct 14, 2015
    #25

    manutddjw Full Member

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    They're just going through a bad cycle of not producing many good players at the moment. It happens to every country, even Brazil whose got a significantly larger population. Sometimes you can get lucky and even when you're going through a bad cycle of not having many good players coming through, the previous generation can carry you through. Unfortunately, Robben has been injured and RVP has declined pretty quickly. Sneijder has been good, but that's it. Ignore what they actually did and compare the situation to England. Upson, Anton Ferdinand, Jenas, Huddlestone and Lennon were all tipped to be a big part of England's future at one point. It didn't work out that way, but at least they still had Terry, Rio, Gerrard and Lampard who were all very good players.
  26. Oct 14, 2015
    #26

    Asger Full Member

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    3 teams did qualify from the group and Holland was not one of them! Who would have thought that?! Ahh Its good to be Icelandic right now :drool:
  27. Oct 14, 2015
    #27

    Roman Bellic Prick

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    I'm guessing they haven't produced enough talented players in time to replace the ageing stallions. It's all a cycle after all.

    They weren't that great at the World Cup, after trashing Spain tbf.
  28. Oct 14, 2015
    #28

    Mciahel Goodman Worst Werewolf Player of All Times

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    I remember their world cup squad for 2002 qualifiers, it was excellent (on paper, one of the best around). Although, failed to qualify thanks to a heroic performance from Keane at Landsdown Road. This squad seems a bit on the average side.
  29. Oct 14, 2015
    #29

    Ibi Dreams Full Member

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    Pretty much. You could say that they've overachieved for a long time, given the quality of the Eredivisie and the population of Holland. I think they'll get back to being a strong team, they're just at a low point right now. They've got a lot of bright prospects in players like Memphis, Bazoer, Kongolo, Vilhena and surely more that I'm not aware of. Strootman (if he gets fit) and Blind can also add a lot to the team and should be in the team for a while yet
  30. Oct 14, 2015
    #30

    Joemo whistling in the wind

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    I think they overachieved with what they have produced previously, and although they should be doing better than they are currently, to expect them to reach the heights of old is unrealistic. As people have mentioned, it seems that talent production ebbs and flows, and at the moment it seems that the Dutch players being produced simply aren't of calibre and more worryingly never will be.

    How many of PSV, Ajax, Twente etc.'s brightest talents are Dutch?
  31. Oct 14, 2015
    #31

    coolredwine lameredboots

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    So did I. I was scared before the group stages. But that's a different thing compared to saying "Dutch overachieved in reaching 3rd." They beat everything put in front of them quite convincingly (Okay, maybe not Mexico, but the general point still stands).
  32. Oct 14, 2015
    #32

    Mezano Full Member

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    The problem in Dutch football is structural. Youth development at the grass roots level has suffered in the last decade as local governments cut back strongly on funding for amateur clubs and youth sports programs. Even talented youngsters often lack technical skills. The Dutch FA is fairly incompetent and their professional coaching programs are out of date in comparison to other football nations. Eredivisie managers are mostly poor Van Gaal clones who make their teams back pass all the time as possession is no longer a means but a goal in itself. The future looks pretty bleak.
  33. Oct 14, 2015
    #33

    We need an rvn Full Member

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    Slightly disagree with this one. Doesn't really matter the size of the country when you have the infrastructure that the Dutch have in terms of football funds, systems, coaching etc. It's up there with the best in the world. they also have more than enough youth playing in the lower leagues to nature talent and the sport is still the national sport (field hockey / ice skating second and third - or at least when I was there)

    With a population of 17m this is not exactly short on numbers or players to chose from.

    I agree with @harms and @Someone mentioned above, I think it's simply a bit of a freak era in Dutch football where for some reason the talent is simply not as good as it has been. Doesn't mean they need to rip up the design that has worked for them for 50+ years.

    Perhaps one element could be the number of foreign players taking up the slots of younger players who have been given a chance to play, however it really looks like the talent just simply isn't there.

    Give them 2-4 years and another wave of talent will come through hopefully
  34. Oct 14, 2015
    #34

    Offside Euro 2016 sweepstake winner

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    Been on the cards for a while in terms of the national team. Shite at the last Euros. Got a good system going at the last World Cup and relied heavily on older players like Robben, RVP and Sneijder who delivered really, really well for them. Was never going to last into Euro 2016.
  35. Oct 14, 2015
    #35

    matherto ask me about our 50% off sale!

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    They beat Spain convincingly but struggled against both Australia and Chile. Needed a dive from Robben for Mexico and then penalties to beat Costa Rica before losing to the Argies.

    Granted they beat Brazil but they were never gonna put up a fight after the 7-1 mauling by Germany.
  36. Oct 14, 2015
    #36

    Bojan11 Full Member

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    They didn't struggle against Chile. Chile are a good team and the game plan was spot on from Holland.

    Holland just are a average side without Robben.

    They have average goalkeepers since VDS retired. They had Reizeger, Stam, De Boers and their defenders now aren't great in comparison.

    Midfield wise they are average. Look at the great midfielders they had in the past 20 years.

    Attack wise poor. Van Persie is done. Hunterlaar isn't world class. They used to have Kluivert, Van Nistelrooy, Makaay and Bergkamp to choose from. Even someone like Hasslebaink couldn't get anywhere near the team and he would walk into current team.

    They need a manager who can get more out of the players. Someone like Koeman would do that.
  37. Oct 14, 2015
    #37

    MDFC Manager Full Member

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    :lol: Is the truth as well
  38. Oct 14, 2015
    #38

    barros Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016

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    Yes but Brazil shouldn't be that bad, they have almost 200 mil people which 199999999 play football
  39. Oct 14, 2015
    #39

    The Purist Banned

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    They really miss Robben when he doesn't feature. Literally all of their young defensive players are crap (in terms of elite football standards that you need to win World Cups etc). Their young attackers are all fairly average and their best players (the elder generation) are all coming to the end of their careers.

    They also became overrated after getting to the World Cup semis by beating Mexico after being in a losing position in the 90th minute IIRC and then winning in the lottery of a penalty shootout against Costa Rica after failing to score for 120 minutes.
  40. Oct 14, 2015
    #40

    suheilsworld Full Member

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    Van Gaal carried a decent side to a 3rd place finish at the WC. By no means they were world class the way Van Gaal made them to look. Similar to Fergie carrying the United side to victory in his last season. Decent players but no where looked like EPL winners from the start.

    Also, not to forget they have been playing with a 3-5-2 formation for the entire time Van Gaal was with them along with a discipline and working style he must have built in the team. Hiddink changed that from the 1st match go and they never settled.