What happened to Dutch football?

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by Adisa, Oct 13, 2015.

  1. Oct 12, 2017 at 13:36

    SoCross Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2014
    Messages:
    1,682
    Sad to not see Robben on the biggest stage of all one more time. Phenomenal footballer, number 3 after Ronaldo & Messi for me.

    Bloody Kenyon, he should have been a Red. Ronaldo on the right, Robben on the left, Rooney down the middle. Jesus.
  2. Oct 12, 2017 at 14:30

    Epicurean New Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2017
    Messages:
    123
    Location:
    Amsterdam
    Supports:
    Ajax
    As an Ajax supporter I am sad that he was never one of us. I have great respect for the man as he has got tremendous winner's mentality, which is a rare trait for a Dutch footballer.

    He almost single handedly won us the WC in 2010. And in 2014 he was again one of the engines of Holland doing better than should have been possible.

    Fair enough, he has his tricks and annoyances, but he is a phenomenal dribbler and finisher.
  3. Oct 12, 2017 at 14:46

    Vialli_92 Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2014
    Messages:
    1,780
    Location:
    Ireland
    Supports:
    Juventus
    The thing I like about Robben is he can fit into almost any system and doesn't need players making runs for him or covering for him. He would be up and down the wing causing havoc when ever he could while also putting a shift in.

    Imo the best pure winger I have seen play the game
  4. Oct 12, 2017 at 17:33

    Hullyback Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2016
    Messages:
    1,210
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    Supports:
    Liverpool FC
    I watched the match the other night, hoping to see Holland pull off something flabbergasting, or at least come close by getting 5/6.

    As soon as I saw Ryan Babel on the pitch it was instantly obvious what's gone wrong for them. I didn't even know the guy still played football never mind would ever get picked nationally. Even with the Redmen Tvs deadline day prank I'd still assumed he'd hung up his boots a while back. He still looked as terrible as I remembered him as well, just lost the pace.
  5. Oct 12, 2017 at 17:53

    anant Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2015
    Messages:
    3,606
    Personally I feel the clubs where the nation's players ply their trade is a good indicator of the country's strengths.
    Sure there are exceptions like Iceland but for the mjor European nations it's a good indicator .
    With Netherlands presently you don't have a single player apart from Robben who is playing in a major European club, Blind and Cillessen are just backups . Now compare this with their sides in 2008 Euros or 2010 world Cup where half their side was playing for RM, Big 4 in England and the likes.
  6. Oct 12, 2017 at 17:59

    Regulus Arcturus Black Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2015
    Messages:
    5,036
    @annat, who are the big 4 in England/Major Euro clubs?
  7. Oct 12, 2017 at 18:14

    anant Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2015
    Messages:
    3,606
    Big 4 in England at that time , I'd say were Utd arsenal chelsea and Pool in 2008 and City in 2010
    I'd say RM Barca Bayern Inter, AC Milan and the 4 English sides. City were on the rise in 2010 but wouldn't say they were a force then.
  8. Oct 12, 2017 at 18:18

    Gary_Walsh_Nou_Camp_Hell New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2015
    Messages:
    264
    Location:
    Whalley Range
    In comparison to previous decades the younger Dutch players leave to other European leagues at much younger ages.

    The great Dutch squads saw many other their players cut their teeth in the Netherlands, often playing together at the either Ajax, PSV and Feyenoord.

    The unique identity of Dutch national football is lost, as the English team lost it's identity too (for different reasons).
  9. Oct 12, 2017 at 22:33

    Robertd0803 Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2014
    Messages:
    2,476
    Yeah his performance in the 5-1 against Spain was an amazing performance.

    Sad to see Holland not at the World Cup. Hard to believe that LvG got them to the WC semis in Brazil considering how they dropped off a cliff since then. (Not to mention what we went through with LvG but thats another story).
  10. Oct 12, 2017 at 23:08

    Rozay Not good at posting fixture lists

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2012
    Messages:
    8,681
    Location:
    #RojoPlusOne
    On the contrary, I feel the strength of the national league is a key factor. The Dutch league is weaker than ever now. The best Dutch players are out of Holland before they turn 17 now. A stronger Ajax and PSV would be good for Dutch football.
  11. Oct 12, 2017 at 23:18

    Gio 4 times Redcafe Draft Winner

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2001
    Messages:
    13,880
    Location:
    Bonnie Scotland
    Yeah very true. Excelled in the more attacking 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 set-ups, but equally was brilliant in Van Gaal's counter-based 3-4-2-1, and even earlier in Mourinho's 4-3-3/4-5-1 hybrid. It's not often a player can shine in such different environments.
  12. Oct 12, 2017 at 23:27

    VorZakone What would Kenny G do?

    Joined:
    May 9, 2013
    Messages:
    11,094
    Robben has been in the game for so long now, I still remember that notorious Robben - Bosvelt sub from 2004 by Dick Advocaat.
  13. Oct 12, 2017 at 23:33

    Scarecrow Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2012
    Messages:
    9,564
    Timbo will set them straight.
  14. Oct 13, 2017 at 00:21

    meninred New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2011
    Messages:
    755
    Their cycle ended and there is no replacement -the source has dried.
  15. Oct 13, 2017 at 08:35

    Class of 63 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2017
    Messages:
    165
    Location:
    Back of Beyond
    As someone who fell in love with La Naranja Mecánica 74 it's tough to see them fail to qualify for a major tournament yet again, that's 3 of the last 4 now :(

    Time for a change of direction methinks, no more recycling the same Managers, and maybe time to bring in an outsider
  16. Oct 13, 2017 at 11:01

    SoCross Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2014
    Messages:
    1,682
    Talk about it mate. That left foot of his...arguably as good as Messi's.
  17. Oct 13, 2017 at 11:21

    Regulus Arcturus Black Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2015
    Messages:
    5,036
    You said currently @annat, so I wanna know who currently fits in your list of top clubs to judge this off?
  18. Oct 13, 2017 at 11:30

    Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber Thus says Kemo

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2002
    Messages:
    44,570
    Location:
    Founder of IhateMakeleles.org and Gourcufffanboysa
    They are just experiencing a generational drought. In 5 years time when the Fosu Mensah's, De ligt's and Chong's are ready they'll be ace again...
  19. Oct 13, 2017 at 11:40

    Baby Groot New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2017
    Messages:
    68
    Moyes would be proud of that go to the byline and put in some 80 crosses.
  20. Oct 13, 2017 at 12:18

    Ajaxsuarez New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2009
    Messages:
    195
    It was actually 2001, sorry. It's hard to find any proper information about what the 'masterplan' entailed. It was a reform of the football pyramid, of the way academies were accredited/rated, a centralised diploma/education for youth coaches. but most of all it was a nationwide reform of youth-football, covering everything from amateur football to the very top clubs. One thing I can find from then is a 'De Telegraaf', where they state that the academy-licensing means all clubs will have to work according to KNVB (Dutch FA) guidelines. Can't find anything concrete about what their guidelines or vision for training toptalent was at the time, but I imagine it's very similar to what Van Gaal then personally went and implemented as Technical director at Ajax between 2003 and 2005.

    Van Gaal's changes to the academy at Ajax were based around the idea that players at every level should play the same system, and rather than raising the best individual footballers, the goal is to produce the ideal cogs for our system, meaning a player from the academy can seamlessly take a place in the first team because every aspect of the system is second nature, and his skillset is perfectly in tune with his role.

    However what this has resulted in is our generation of 'functional' players. This whole generation of Dutch footballers are players who are subservient to the team, but lack the ability to take on an opponent one-on-one, or to be inventive and creative with their passing. Players like Wijnaldum, Klaassen, Strootman, Van Ginkel, Siem de Jong, Pröpper are all the exact same type of midfielder, with functional technique, work rate, and very well rounded skillset but lacking in close-control, creative forward passing, and any sort of ability to dribble. Just very bland footballers who can only ever be supporting acts to proper top, creative players.

    After Van Gaal's changes to the Ajax academy, we had a terrible dry spell in talent. The only top talents we brought through in the 10 years after were the Belgians: Vertonghen, Alderweireld, (Vermaelen), and the Dane Eriksen. Youth brought in from the outside. Daley Blind is the best Dutch player, but again if it wasn't for his exceptional footballing intelligence, he wouldn't be any better.

    This was the reason for Cruijff's revolution that started (sort of) in 2010. Cruijff has always had the belief that if you raise the best players, individually, they'll be good enough to play in any system. Cruijff's trackrecord on the youth level is of course unique in all of football. In the mid to late 80s he was manager of Ajax, but also involved at every level of the club, including the academy, even youth recruitment (his recruitment/scouting agency was responsible for recruiting players such as Davids, Seedorf, Kluivert, De Boers into the academy). He left for Barcelona in 1988 but between 1992 and 1997 Ajax had their golden generation.

    At Barcelona, as a player, he'd pushed for the creation of La Masia. He came back as a manager between 88 and 96, reforming the club (which had been in crisis for the 15 years preceding him), and 10 years after his departure Barcelona had their golden generation.

    So Cruijff started a revolution at Ajax, and from 2011-2015/16, his man Wim Jonk was the head of the Ajax academy. The academy shifted their focus fully to individual training, specialist attention to every facet of the game for every player. More hours spent on individual technique training, new match formats for the youngest levels, playing matches on two separate small field, which showed players each getting 1.5x or 2x more touches per match, in tighter areas. The new mantra of the academy was that match results don't matter at the youth level, where it's about improving players not about pragmatically trying to win matches, not Training sessions on different ground, from indoor to gravel, to create uncertainty in how the ball would behave and the need for a better control of the ball at all times. I can't remember all the other specific things he implemented, but in 2015 internal politics at Ajax led to him being sacked (he fell out with Dennis Bergkamp, because Jonk felt the academy was the only part of the club still following Cruijff's plans). So Jonk was sacked, and with it Cruijff's influence removed from the club again. Cruijff died in 2016. And the Ajax academy has been sprinting backwards at record pace ever since. Simultaneously Van Breukelen and the Dutch FA produced a new 'masterplan' type report, which will be followed by all clubs in Holland, and it's a disaster in every sense. They look at the differences between Premier League football and Eredivisie football, and use that to make recommendations about what should be done at the youth level, and it's honestly moronic beyond belief. So yeah, Dutch football is unlikely to get any better in the next generation either.
  21. Oct 13, 2017 at 13:16

    anant Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2015
    Messages:
    3,606
    Big 3 in Spain, Juventus, PSG, Bayern, big 5 in England (Last year's top 6 minus Pool) and maybe teams like Napoli, Roma, BVB